<p>momofsongbird - I think one of the reasons those kids in the 30’s did so well (and I was raised by two of them, one with immigrant parents) is that along with their parents guidance, whatever they did receive from the educational system was grounded in the literature and history that forms the moral foundation of our culture; it might have been a minimal education, but it was consistent. They weren’t bombarded with messages from pop culture that negated that basic training.</p>
<p>"t was pretty complicated for 12 and 13 year olds to leave school in the '30s, head out into the adult working world on the streets of cities like NY and Chicago to hawk newspapers or shine shoes. Those whose (often “uneducated”) parents had simply taught them the Golden Rule did pretty well. "</p>
<p>I wouldn’t bet that the kids in the 30s were any more moral or ethical than are young people now. With hindsight, it’s easy for things to seem very rosy. I doubt that there was as much documentation of the bad things that young people did back then. There was no Internet, for instance.</p>
<p>I do think, however, that since most young people then didn’t even graduate from high school, but were in the working world and working hard to support themselves during the depression, there wasn’t the time for young people to engage in the type of antics that teens can do now. Teens didn’t have the luxury of extended childhoods that they have now.</p>
<p>Yeah, I don’t think the Hitler Youth was a recent phenomenon.</p>
<p>There is a thread about this in the cafe. I don’t know if the two should be merged or not.</p>
<p>Amen, Mom of Songbird-- morality is really a pretty simple, very basic thing, and the golden rule sums it up pretty well. Does anyone really have to be taught not to set up a webcam, record his roommate’s private encounter, and stream it online? I only wish Tyler Clementi had been strong enough to realize that it was Ravi who should have been filled with shame, not him. </p>
<p>I don’t think this was murder, though. I think it was disgusting behavior. I think 5 years in jail for videotaping without the subject’s permission is plenty. One would assume Ravi has a lifetime of remorse coming–a kind of internal life in prison. I don’t think we can resolve this country’s ethics crisis with draconian penalties. I think we need something deeper and much more basic-- a national tilt toward kindness, understanding, and generosity, that would constitute a moral education of its own.</p>
<p>(But yes, Bchan-- a stronger educational foundation in history and literature would be a great place to begin.)</p>
<p>My D summed it up pretty well in her 17 year old lingo “what a hot mess.”</p>
<p>uhhhh…There are a bunch of things to like about our parent’s generation. IMO their treatment of marginalized groups is clearly not one of them.</p>
<p>Very true. According to my D, at her HS, it is actually easier to come out as gay than as republican. </p>
<p>This is so tragic.</p>
<p>My 15yo’s response: “How insecure do you have to be to do something like that?”</p>
<p>Which actually raised something I hadn’t thought about – was Ravi so afraid of being tainted by a gay roommate that he acted this way to distance himself from him? Prove his manhood? Absolutely not a good rationale but might explain what drove him to do such a despicable thing.</p>
<p>curm, I have to agree with you that our parents’ generation’s treatment of marginalized groups was worse and it has gotten better in our generation but unfortunately, it still has a long way to go. </p>
<p>This story (and other similar ones in the news) is so tragic and very difficult to bear witness to. It is hard to imagine people violating privacy and filming another in a sexual encounter and even harder to imagine then posting that publicly on the internet. I also think it is even worse as it seems obvious to me that the young man’s sexual orientation played a part in the motivation to do this despicable act. The roommate went to do it a SECOND time knowing full well his roommate was gay. </p>
<p>I cannot fathom the humiliation that Tyler must have felt. He must have had nowhere to turn (in his mind) or way out of this and was new to college too. </p>
<p>For Tyler’s parents, it is so tragic and heartbreaking to lose a child and worse, to suicide but I think it is even worse (if that is even possible) to know he went through this humiliation and also that he was targeted for being gay. Their pain must be so unbearable. </p>
<p>I also wonder about the young man who was filmed in these encounters with Tyler and I hope he is getting support. </p>
<p>I hope there is a large outcry over this incident, along with other sexual harassment incidents aimed at the gay community. It is going to take more work to build tolerance in society.</p>
<p>This issue should concern all of us as students, parents, and citizens of the human race.</p>
<p>The incidents were discussed on the Today show today. [Student</a> secretly taped having sex kills self - TODAY People - TODAYshow.com](<a href=“http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/39419543/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/]Student”>http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/39419543/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/)</p>
<p>Molly did not give a statement while the roommate was reported as “being confused.” Many of Tyler’s friends were on and they spoke of what a great person he was. It appears that more than “invasion of privacy” charges may be filed. </p>
<p>This is so very sad.</p>
<p>I agree that past generations treatment of marginalized groups was not their strong point, I think the kids of today have that as an advantage (although Ravi’s behavior demonstrates that we haven’t come as far as we should - don’t get me started on why gay marriage isn’t universally accepted). But I do think their view of what it means to be a moral person was more clearly and consistently defined. Today’s kids seem more confused about the difference between goodness and success. Along with holding the technology in their hands that allows them to violate the rights of others and market their own private lives over the internet, they have so many examples of crude and vulgar behavior being rewarded - generally with your own reality TV show on MTV.</p>
<p>^ I agree
society has confused goodness with success
…and part of the problem is how society rewards success
…and what we think of as deserving of priase, $ and fame etc…</p>
<p>Everyone should consider what they watch on tv, what they support, etc.
Look at your calendar and checkbook. Where do you spend your time and $?</p>
<p>The children and teens and young adults learn from their parents, family, teachers and communities what is to be valued…and how to treat people. </p>
<p>This is a failure on many levels…and many situations of the same moral failure are aournd us daily. Do we notice them…and what do we do to correct them?</p>
<p>Otherwise --all this is --here on thie thread, on the news and in the blogs–is voyerism of someone else’s tragedy. </p>
<p>The better question here is
“What will YOU do differently?”
"What are people seeing if they are looking into your life? "</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>On this aspect, I can’t agree more with you. The blurring of many categories of boundaries has removed the sorting of right from wrong from the simple to the thoughtful. Just one of many reasons why the 6 year old’s consciousness is not the proper barometer for college student behavior.</p>
<p>One of the things that I liked about my daughter’s high school was the ban on pop culture - along with the uniforms and the seminar style socratic teaching style, it took a lot of the power back from the glossy, plastic ‘success’ model found on MTV. It encouraged critical thinking by keeping the class discussion focused on the core moral issues in the text -those gems of ethical direction were then easily applied as measures of the value of things encountered in real life. </p>
<p>Prior to this school model my children attended a very good public school where some teachers did a fabulous job of incorporating moral values and ethics in education, even at a very young age (my daughter’s 2nd grade teacher required them to write an essay on the ethical implications of chief Joseph’s letter to the President and another essay about the ethical dilemma surrounding the whistle blower at 3 mile island - I mourned the day she retired), but others chose to make learning more fun and spent too much time on media driven projects IMO.</p>
<p>I cringe at the inclusion of graphic novels in the AP curriculum.</p>
<p>
Just a slow old guy doing what he can to live an honest life in a world he doesn’t really understand anymore…and sometimes failing to clear even that bar. You? ;)</p>
<p>(Edited to have an accurate quote)</p>
<p>"“Hello, babies. Welcome to Earth. It’s hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It’s round and wet and crowded. At the outside, babies, you’ve got about a hundred years here. There’s only one rule that I know of, babies—G** damn it, you’ve got to be kind.” K. Vonnegut</p>
<p>Jonri, if indeed it was Clementi posting then he doesn’t sound suicidal, he did know what his roommie was doing (webcam spying and giving others the opportunity to watch) and he had started the ball rolling administratively with reporting the incident to the RA and people a couple of steps above the RA.</p>
<p>It doesn’t fit with the “sudden shame at being taped leading to suicide” scenario. Maybe it’s a different guy (but then, how often does this happen?!)</p>
<p>ellemenope, maybe he was trying to put up a strong front in his posts and seeking advice on how to pursue this through the proper channels, but all the while feeling tormented in ways that he would not have actually posted his deeper feelings of humiliation. He may have just being dealing with the logistics in his public posts (if those are his posts). And then perhaps it kept building and building with a feeling of no way out of this.</p>
<p>Must be, soozievt…</p>
<p>A lot of people don’t “seem” suicidal when in fact they are. The UT shooter comes to mind. His family’s statement emphasized that no one close to him had any idea anything was wrong, that he showed absolutely “no signs” of depression or suicidal leanings. </p>
<p>People do sometimes attempt to put up a brave front when in fact they are imploding.</p>
<p>If you google Kashmir Hill + Forbes, you will be able to read an article that discusses Tyler’s posts about this situation. It also talks about how back in August, Ravi posted on the internet that he had discovered that the roommate he was assigned was gay and had read internet postings by Tyler on a gay message board. So, in my view, besides the privacy violations, this wreaks of a hate crime and harassment due to the sexual orientation of the roommate. I think there will be more charges.</p>