<p>@SpiritManager - thank you so much for taking the time to help me out! It sounds like your son had a great experience there; I’ll be sure to add Bard to my list of colleges to consider.</p>
<p>Spiritmanager: you do such a great job of selling Bard! After reading your post, I’m thinking S2, applying this year, should add it to his list. I think Neil Gaiman has taught creative writing there. How generous were they with scholarships and financial aid?</p>
<p>@dec51995 Neil Gaiman does teach at Bard. And Anne Carson starts in the fall. If S2 is interested in writing he should definitely check it out. Bard isn’t going to be the right place for everyone - I hope my posts don’t make it seem so. But for those for whom it is a good fit, it’s terrific and hard to top. As for financial aid - I think it varies from student to student. They don’t promise to meet 100% of need, but that doesn’t mean that they never do. There are also un-advertised merit scholarships in the college, as well as the advertised ones for science, economics, and Top 10 in your school… The conservatory has great merit aid available for top applicants, particularly those also with financial need.</p>
<p>I will say that although D2 didn’t get full aid at Bard, the amount they offered her was sufficient to make it a financially possible choice for our family. For writing/literature, Bard is top shelf…but as Spirit Manager so aptly points out, not for everyone.</p>
<p>Just curious, are people visiting schools like Bard before applying? I think that for many colleges and conservatories alike, a visit really clarifies things. And not necessarily the official tours and info sessions: hanging out in the cafeteria was always one of our favorite strategies and in the case of music, of course, attending concerts. Bard is in a rural area but has access to NYC fairly easily (Spirit Manager’s son has done a lot in the city). It has a reputation for a particular vibe, somewhat alternative, which I like but should be a fit. This is true of Oberlin to some extent as well.</p>
<p>I would also look carefully at the requirements for a double degree, the cost for 5 years, and so on. Schools like Oberlin, Lawrence, Bard that offer a double degree on the same campus are easier logistically than, say, Harvard and Tufts’ programs with NEC. But a double degree is still a lot of classes and work. My daughter did not embrace the double bachelor’s at all, and felt that a bachelor’s followed by a master’s was a better path. (In fact, Harvard, for one, only offers the double degree with BA/MM). I still don’t really grasp why Bard administration requires a double degree for musicians: can’t the study of music stand on its own like other focused majors?</p>
<p>The Peabody admissions office’s online Double Degree Dilemma essay, that is so often posted, clarifies these issues well. <a href=“http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/conservatory/admissions/tips/doubledegree.html”>http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/conservatory/admissions/tips/doubledegree.html</a></p>
<p>If a kid truly cannot decide between music and some other field, then a double degree seems worth it. But students studying engineering or computer science aren’t pressured to be well-rounded. Is this about money? Because a BM graduate is as employable as anyone else with a bachelor’s and can go on to grad school without the other bachelor’s. Is it about the idea that music study makes the school a trade school? I would love to know the thinking behind the requirement.</p>
<p>We see this in the dance field these days. I have been to dance performances where the director announces that all the dancers went to college. Do I care? I don’t really know if the idea is that without liberal arts studies, and in fact without a degree in something more worthwhile than the art itself, musicians and dancers are mindless enacters of someone else’s vision. I hate to sound like a grandma, but in the old days, many dancers didn’t go to college at all and their pursuit of the art had a purity about it. Many of the teachers in dance conservatories had been dancers, not academics. The world of the arts has really changed. Perhaps our perception of these things depends on the kids we actually have :)</p>
<p>I know of some students who are brilliant and productive for whom double degrees are incredibly fulfilling and not too stressful. But for some, it really is a lot. I think the choice of a school like Bard for a double degree is perfect for those who will truly enjoy the opportunities, but it should be a choice. Just my personal opinion.</p>
<p>To answer Compmom’s question about why Bard went the route it did, I found an old story:
<a href=“Home | Chamber Music America”>Home | Chamber Music America;
One can download Robert Martin’s “On the Education of Musicians: A Manifesto” on this page: <a href=“About the Bard Conservatory”>http://www.bard.edu/conservatory/overview/</a></p>
<p>I agree with Compmom that the double degree route isn’t for everyone - which is why we both continually point to the Peabody article. And my own son didn’t even know how valuable the double degree would be for him - not the degrees themselves, but the opportunity to study in depth subjects other than music. Also, as a reminder about Bard - it is possible to get a BA in music in the College, or even double major in the college - without getting a double degree from the conservatory, in the standard four year sequence.</p>
<p>One thing to keep in mind about Bard is leaving the conservatory aside for the moment, Bard college itself is a well respected liberal arts college, its academic programs are up there and so forth. Heck, it is so well known that The Onion did a piece on it, talking about how the school was a major party school (as in dinner parties) and that the administration had to crack down on illegal dinner parties where subjects like Proust were being discussed and where truffles were being consumed (or some such, haven’t read it in a while). As far as whether a ‘dual degree’ is needed, I tend to think of it as being up to the student. Some will think that you need to do this to ‘back up’ the music degree, but to me from having known some Bard conservatory students, I think where a dual program like Bard makes sense is where the student feels they need/want to have the academic degree to ‘fill themselves out’. Conservatory students will say that at times they find the lack of general courses and such you find in an ‘academic’ program’ something they wish they had, but then again, they also will say IME that they wouldn’t know how to find the time:). </p>
<p>As for the second degree as a backup, there are a lot of liberal arts degrees that in terms of jobs after college are no stronger than a BM degree, degrees in English Literature, Classics, History, etc, the ‘traditional’ liberal arts kind of degrees, aren’t going to get you in the door any easier than a music degree would, and even the vaunted ‘business administration’ major is not particularly well thought of any more (obviously, very different if you get a business degree from Wharton then a general business degree from some generic university), so doing it for ‘safety’ may not be worth the effort (obviously, said liberal arts degrees if you plan on going the Phd route and teaching have applicability). It is interesting, the Bard students I knew of who went to the conservatory, often studied the kinds of degrees that many would consider “not directly related to a career” kind of things that interested them, so it kind of goes along with what others have posted. </p>
<p>Spirit Manager mentioned to me that for composers, a BA in Bard college, rather then the conservatory, offers the same or even better opportunities compared to the conservatory, so that is an option for those interested in that field. And a double major, as opposed to double degree, might be possible in that case.</p>
<p>My son is currently at Interlochen and principal cello in the World Youth Symphony Orchestra. His professors there, who attended Julliard and Curtis, are advising him to look at strictly conservatory programs. No liberal arts. They told him he won’t have enough time to practice if he is taking non-music courses. This throws our college search in a different direction if he chooses to follow their advice. </p>
<p>My advice is to apply to all kinds of programs - he has until May 1, 2015 to decide what will be right for him. Better to have choices at that time.</p>
<p>If that is what your son wants, then he will be among many, many young musicians who apply only to conservatories. That kind of dedication is wonderful (and, actually, is respected among employers, med school admissions, and other grad schools). </p>
<p>If, on the other hand, he has other fields that interest him, then keeping many options open, including ways to combine music and academics, is smart (and there are many ways to combine them.)</p>
<p>For many, liberal arts really do take time and energy away from music, I think. There is nothing wrong with focusing on music, nor is there anything wrong with trying to include other studies: It depends on what the student wants :)</p>
<p>@2015Lalo The advice you got sounds rather general. Bard is an LAC that also has a conservatory. Perhaps those teacher were recommending against studying music performance in an LAC that doesn’t have a conservatory or a strong music program. If your son is interested in performance alone, by all means, choose only conservatories. But if he is interested in studying other subjects, seek out perspectives from many different sources and don’t write off LAC’s just yet. I think you will find many people with top credentials will have different views about where to study and what is important in an institution. It is a mistake to assume one can’t be a great performer and study another discipline. I know a star teacher from one of the two venerable institutions you mentioned whose top student currently attends a famous school studying a subject that has nothing to do with music. PM me if you’d like to know more.</p>
<p>Bard conservatory students are required to do a double degree with another major other than music. I think that is why 2015Lalo posted the advice of the teachers, since it was relevant to the topic of Bard for instrumentalists.</p>
<p>We also know a few students at an Ivy who are not studying music at all at the college but are studying privately with a teacher and in one case still doing concerts around the world. But there are many amazing musicians who go to conservatory and focus entirely. One string player I know didn’t even do high school because it was a distraction. </p>
<p>There certainly is a range but I think the advice of these teachers is common and appropriate for many, though not all.</p>
<p>I’m having my son apply to conservatories or state schools with conservatories. He has executive function and adhd (saving grace is good at academics inspite of it with lots of work of course)I know that a liberal arts school would pull him in too many directions and possibly make him fail. Just seeing how he’s done at these short camps has confirmed this. However, if your son is highly organised and maybe ahead and hasn’t struggled juggling it yet, he may be fine doing some liberal arts. It just depends on the kid and maybe the level and how good the teacher is. I believe the teachers expect more out of their students in college, so i could seebeing overloaded with non music classes could have a negative impact.</p>
<p>Please note that the students at Bard in the double degree program aren’t necessarily overloaded. That’s why it takes five years to complete. They generally only take four classes (and one is studio instruction) per semester - two music, two non-music - (although they can juggle that balance from semester to semester.) The instrumentalists do have orchestra and chamber music in the evenings. And there are the group classes & coachings. I think the conservatory requirements at Bard are fewer than at a lot of other conservatories. Here are some sample five year plans: <a href=“http://www.bard.edu/conservatory/undergraduate/sample_plan/”>http://www.bard.edu/conservatory/undergraduate/sample_plan/</a></p>
<p>And here are a couple of students talking about what a typical week is like: <a href=“http://www.bard.edu/conservatory/undergraduate/week_life/”>http://www.bard.edu/conservatory/undergraduate/week_life/</a></p>
<p>Thanks Spirit Manager. The classes sure do look interesting at Bard: that’s another big plus. Can I go?</p>
<p>For those with health or other challenges (including ADHD, executive function problems) sometimes the disabilities office and administrators at various colleges can be helpful not only in providing support, but practical aids such as single room, reduced courseload, extra time, etc. I don’t know how that goes at Bard but would assume they are wonderful there. A double degree might be possible, for instance, in 6 rather than 5 years, if someone really wanted to do it.</p>
<p>Not saying this for cellomom6- conservatory is a great option. But just for general readers here on CC who might see this.</p>
<p>That said, my dancer kid with ADHD decided she cannot dance and do more than one class at a time, so she is no longer on a campus at all! Our views on these things are determined by the oft-cited “kid on the couch.”</p>
<p>Yes, one can take longer than five years to graduate from the conservatory - it’s not uncommon. I don’t know how the scholarships work for more than five years, but I suspect they continue.</p>
<p>My concern is cost when it’s 5 or 6 years versus 4. </p>
<p>All scholarships are awarded for the five years.</p>
<p>@ lalo-
What the teachers told you is an opinion, and whether they went to Juilliard or Curtis or a ‘lesser’ school, it should be treated as such. While I totally get where they are coming from, and in general I tend to agree with the amount of time for practice and rehearsals and such, I also think it really depends on the student and the program. Some kids need other forms of learning, too, and for example, at a program like Bard or Oberlin where it is 5 years, it could be it is possible to practice and do other things, too…</p>
<p>Like with everything else in music, there are no hard and fast rules. For example, you could look at an LAC with a music school in it, where the music kids have to do the general core courses like other UG students, and then you look at what the music kids do after UG, and it looks like they don’t generally go on into high level music…is that because the students didn’t have enough time to practice, or because the music program didn’t get very high level students to start with.? </p>
<p>Like everything with music, it all comes down to the individual student and their particular needs and abilities…it could be in a conservatory that the lack of liberal arts classes would demotivate some music students, others might find it a blessing, which is why the biggest part of the whole process is self examination and figuring out what the student themselves need:). The teachers who say go to conservatory because of the practice time may say something like that because they know the student very well and that he/she needs a lot of practice time to catch up or whatever, or it could be because they themselves could never see having enough practice time and doing other classes based on what they experienced:…hence it has to come down to the student in the end, taking the advice into consideration. My own S felt that a conservatory was a better place for him, based on his needs and abilities and such, but also had friends who went to places like Oberlin and Bard or to schools within universities and LAC’s that were of comparable ability, but felt that they wanted the university experience, and as far as I know, they are doing fine. </p>