<p>My gut is telling me Oberlin but I'm still slightly on the fence. On the one hand, I didn't really fall in love with Oberlin's campus like I did Bard's and after visiting, I felt like (from the little exposure I had) the Bard students looked a lot artsier. However, I am very politically active and I felt like Oberlin had a much stronger activist metality than Bard and I've heard that Oberlin students are much nicer. Also Ohio weather terrifies me! Any feedback would be great. Thanks!</p>
<p>There are places with worse weather than Oberlin.
If you otherwise like the college, you will survive the cold.</p>
<p>Bard is not exactly in Miami.
Your call on the student bodies sounds right to me.</p>
<p>Oberlin is a lot less small I think, which should impact course selection and campus activity level. At such small schools both of these factors could be quite important.</p>
<p>The situation of the surrounding areas is a bit different, town of Oberlin has a funky college town feel but is very small, The area near Bard is an active site for second home/ weekenders from NYC, not sure how the students relate to it, or which setup is actually better. The towns near Bard are not huge either. For the occasional getaway,Bard students can get to NYC, even by train I think, but it is not close. At Oberlin you can get to a city (much more easily by car), heck you could even commute to/from there, but it is Cleveland.</p>
<p>Geography might be considered, at some level. For example, it was an 8 hour drive to Oberlin for us, after we moved back East. Bard would have been less than 2 hours as it turned out. That is a significant difference, convenience-wise. Probably also impacts the % representation of where your fellow students live, and also their subsequent destinations . Though the East coast is quite well represented at Oberlin.</p>
<p>Oberlin has had the tradition, and reputation, of producing future academics, aside the “political wing” and the arts. In my day it was very highly regarded in academic circles, moreso than Bard I daresay. I frankly don’t know about now. I know Bard has excellent programs in certain areas; the ones I know about are more creative and less conventionally academic. But I don’t know much.</p>
<p>visit both for a couple of days and see what you think. I found them, as a parent, very different, even with all their superficial similarities, and I crossed Bard off the list of schools I would be willing to send my kid to after our visit but placed Oberlin among the top schools on the list. I found Bard so “artsy” that it seemed off-putting and the campus is much more remote-feeling than Oberlin, though the setting is beautiful. The sciences are much stronger at Oberlin; the activities of the students seemed more diverse and interesting; the conservatory far more vibrant and more integrated into the college as a whole. The library at Bard was incomparable. But it is a matter of taste.</p>
<p>At the moment there is no snow on the ground in Oberlin, while NY state is preparing for a blizzard. Next week the situation could be reversed. My point is that there’s not a significant difference between Ohio weather and New York’s.</p>
<p>Mamenyu, you might clarify what you mean about the Bard library being “incomparable.”</p>
<p>I’m not mamenyu, but the library is located in one of the old historic mansions that line the East shore of the Hudson river, in a truly majestic setting typical of these mansions. In my next reincarnation I plan to be a railroad robber baron, or one of their henchmen, so I can live in one of those places.</p>
<p>I’ve no idea what’s actually IN the library though. I don’t think anyone regards its contents as incomparable, just its setting.</p>
<p>The blizzard is late, around here anyway.</p>
<p>I think in general the two schools have a lot in common - except that much of the faculty at Bard has a connection to New York City which changes the complexion of the staff. So far every one of his professors has been world class.</p>
<p>However, if my son had picked schools because of the library, Bard would have not been near the top of his list - let alone where he’s a freshman! He’s actually hoping to improve the collection - it was one of the assignments from his music composition professor.
As for the conservatory - the conservatory at Bard is very new and small compared to Oberlin - but both the students and the faculty are top-notch and a vibrant exciting group.</p>
<p>My advice is apply to both and decide later.</p>
<p>My guess was that Mamenyu meant that Bard’s collection was not comparable to Oberlin’s, which is one of the very best college libraries in the country.</p>
<p>There’s very little difference in the weather, actually. Whenever I talk to my parents (who live in NY), we always have the same thing going on. </p>
<p>One notable difference? Bard is much smaller, by 1000 students. As for the overall student body? We’ve got a large range. While every Obie isn’t an activist, all of us are impassioned. If you want to change the way the world works, you’ll find a lot company at Oberlin.</p>
<p>My son is applying to both, but I feel I need to defend Bard here, based on what we’ve seen. Bard helps its students move beyond the theoretical and purely academic to bring education out into the world. The president recently received a $500,000 Carnegie Foundation award (the first college, as opposed to university, president to get this) and there are an array of endlessly fascinating programs students can get involved with – the Prison Initiative, classes with West Point students, intergenerational seminars with area residents are a few that really impressed me. My son loves politics, international affairs, languages, and I think that Bard would provide a phenomenal foundation for learning and engaging with the world. Their professors are leading intellectuals in their fields (I recognized a few of the names myself) and the school’s location is a prime recruiting tool – access to NYC, but in a beautiful rural setting which attracts an intellectual, culturally versed population. </p>
<p>I realize that my post does not address the student body itself, particularly in terms of political activism, but I do think that Bard will offer an extremely stimulating environment for any student who attends and provide an “activist” a truly informed base on which to make decisions about how to interact with the world. </p>
<p>My son is not the least bit “artsy” himself, although he loves music and would relish the cultural opportunities available at both Bard and Oberlin. </p>
<p>Anyway, if it turns out that activism is not as big on the Bard campus, wouldn’t it be a good thing to go there and help turn on the students to getting more involved? That, to me, seems the definition of true activism!! I would be really surprised if there weren’t at least a core of students who are involved.</p>
<p>Whenever i mention that my son might go to Bard, people inevitably respond, “Oh I know someone who went to Bard, and he / she is the most interesting person!”</p>
<p>As a followup to my previous post, Bard has a Human Rights Project (the Prison Initiative being one program within it) and offers a major in Human RIghts. I recall reading that Bard was the first college to offer this.</p>
<p>To clarify, as dave72 noted, I misused the word “incomparable” - and meant to say that the library at Bard does not compare to Oberlin’s: Oberlin’s is one of the best in the country for a school of its size and the music library is also outstanding. The physical spaces are also very different; to me, as someone who loves libraries, the library book collection at Bard was unimpressive - apart from being a very weird building that did not seem particularly inviting (it was also not within view of the Hudson - there is another lovely building up there overlooking the Hudson, but it wasn’t the library). By contrast, Mudd is really a wonderful space. But I don’t want to make people defensive about Bard - it is no doubt a good school for people who find it to be a match in terms of student body; to some degree it is really is a matter of taste. But I found Bard offputting when I visited and was wowed by Oberlin (I reviewed both for CC at the time of those visits.) So my point really now is that it is worth your while to visit both schools and see how you feel about them.</p>
<p>“there is another lovely building up there overlooking the Hudson, but it wasn’t the library”</p>
<p>oops</p>
<p>There’s also a Science Library in the Science Center, which is small but very nice. It has lots of scientific journals and such.</p>
<p>Also note that if you are a undergrad Conservatory student, the dual degree program is a requirement at Bard but optional at Oberlin.</p>
<p>Hi everyone–</p>
<p>I’ve stumbled across this thread while searching for something else. I work at the Bard Conservatory and I hope the Obies won’t mind my posting here on their home turf too much. </p>
<p>I visit Oberlin once a year–they host a nice college fair–and here are a few thoughts I’d like to add to this discussion. </p>
<ol>
<li><p>Overlap. I’m open to be challenged on this statement, but I believe the schools are more similar than they are dissimilar. And whenever this situation arises, it’s human nature to begin to strain at gnats to create a provocative juxtaposition. (Think of closed primary elections). It’s then no surprise that both schools have some considerable applicant overlap. I think it’s encouraging to find people who feel very passionately about both schools–to me it’s this sense of pride and ownership of the educational experience that distinguishes the finest schools.</p></li>
<li><p>Location. I travel a lot for my job, and I prefer to visit places with just a street map. Don’t like GPS. Oberlin’s location is really great–it is so easy to find (has an eponymous town!), conveniently located to a major international airport, good signage, etc. People like to hate on Cleveland and other rust belt towns, but I think a lot of that is overblown. I guess it’s because I live in a loft in a rust-belty part of NY, so I have a soft spot in my heart for places like Buffalo, Cleveland, Detroit, etc, and I enjoy visiting them. Bard’s a very different story. It is not easy to find, and for visitors out of town it can feel somewhat remote. To anyone who lives in NYC, or adjacent locations in New England, the Hudson Valley is a fully integrated part of the “neighborhood” (and we’re actually considered the furthest limit of the NYC metropolitan region by the US Census) but if you come from outside our region you certainly wonder what’s going on. We are 60 minutes from Albany, 90 miles from Manhattan. For those that live here, these distances do not seem that great, but for others, it’s a big turn off. Do you want a very quick getaway into Cleveland, or a slightly longer and more expensive jaunt down to NYC? Ultimately this is all a matter of taste (and in my opinion should be lower down on the list of factors to consider when selecting a school). I do wish we had better signage, though. </p></li>
<li><p>Momentum. One way to view the two schools is by examining their reputations historically. Academically Bard has always had stellar faculty–we’ve recruited some very important thinkers beginning in the 1930s. But the student body has changed quite dramatically. Selectivity has definitely gone up. While not suggesting other “peer schools” (in terms of applicant overlap) like Oberlin, Brown, Reed, Wesleyan, Vassar, et. al have become moribund, Bard’s star is [certainly</a> on the ascendant](<a href=“The Daily Beast: The Latest in Politics, Media & Entertainment News”>The Daily Beast: The Latest in Politics, Media & Entertainment News). So, is your temperament better suited to a place that already has a strong alumni network and “brand recognition,” or would you prefer to go to a place that isn’t as fully formed, or fully defined, where you can shape the future reputation of the school? This applies to the College, and absolutely for the Conservatory, as we’re only 5 years old vs. Oberlin’s founding in 1865. Again, I’m not saying other schools don’t change with the times, adapt to new realities, or pursue innovation in their approaches to educating undergraduates. Bard does give off this feeling that it’s on the move. </p></li>
<li><p>Size. Oberlin has 3,000 students, Bard is around 1,800. Depending what interests you, you may prefer more critical mass, you may want the smaller student body. Oberlin’s conservatory dwarfs Bard’s–they have 650 students, we currently have 95. Bard’s Conservatory is an academic unit within the College–and as BassDad points out, the double degree is a requirement. The Oberlin Conservatory has its own admission process, and so it technically stands alongside other “stand-alone” Conservatories (as evidenced by its participation in the Universal App consortium along with MSM, CIM, NEC, etc.). Administratively, Bard is structured more along the lines of Rice, Northwestern, and USC–a music division within the umbrella of the school, where you must be admitted to both. This is quite rare in a liberal arts environment (I can think of just us and Lawrence), and the only mandatory dual degree. Physically, Bard isn’t a “Conservatory” in the sense that there’s a single building where everything takes place. Bard Conservatory students are thoroughly integrated into the academic and social life of the College. There’s no separate dorms or dining halls. Rehearsal and performance spaces are distributed widely throughout the campus. I may be wrong, but I believe most Conservatory students do not see themselves as defined by one physical structure, but they rather see the entire campus as their home. Not all Oberlin Con students will have the same attitude towards the College’s campus space. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>4a. Selectivity. It’s six of one, half a dozen of the other when it comes to the two colleges’ admission profiles. Generally we’re now in the same league in terms of stats. Without combing the raw data myself, but just from reading files of applicants who’ve applied to both schools (I sit on the admission committee of the college), we’re attracting bright, curious, motivated people who really want to be active participants in their college experience. On occasion you hear people say things like “college is just a bunch of silly hoops you’ve gotta jump through to get a degree.” A sentiment like that would practically carry the death penalty at either of these places. At the same time admission processes have their own unique quirks built in to them. This is what happens when you go test-optional, and really truly care what people say in their essays. 20 years ago, it was unheard of for someone to get in to Vassar but not Bard; today this is not necessarily the case. </p>
<p>As far as the Conservatory goes, based on the last two years of data (which I do have access to), we are the tougher admit. Oberlin is one of the top 5 schools with which the Conservatory has applicant overlap. In the past two admission cycles, around 20 students have applied to both schools; 12-14 were not offered a place at Bard, and wound up at Oberlin. Of the 6-8 offered admission to both places, only one student in each year has turned us down for them. I am NOT going to get in to a debate over whether Bard’s 5-year-old program is “better” than Oberlin’s near-150-year record. Please! However given our very small size, we have a bit more flexibility to our admission process. We are not obligated to admit a certain quota of horns or violas to fill our various orchestras; we prefer to hire professionals to fill in rather than compromise a particular standard we’ve set for ourselves. In addition, these statistics do not show everything. There are lots of great musicians who apply to Oberlin but not Bard (and vice versa); so these numbers do not point the complete picture. But, for the benefit of those weighing the two programs, I do stand by the assessment that we are the tougher audition. </p>
<ol>
<li>Library. Incomparable is the right word. Bard’s spending priorities have been in other areas–new facilities, faculty wages, and other things (I don’t sit in on these kinds of meetings so I’ll stop speculating on what these might be). We belong to a consortium of libraries called [Connect NY](<a href=“http://www.connectny.info/”>http://www.connectny.info/</a>) that gets Bard students access to the libraries of other schools (Vassar, RPI, RIT, West Point, etc.). This does tie in to #3 above–established vs. growing school. To what extent students completing their Senior Projects at Bard feel they cannot conduct their research, I don’t know. I do think that, given finite resources, there was wisdom in focusing on other matters first, as the largest, best academic libraries in the country typically reside at gigantic research universities, and their collections more fully utilized by graduate students. As an undergraduate liberal arts curriculum focuses, by and large, on core texts, and central issues in the canon of a particular discipline, if I were calling the shots about how to put Bard on the map, I too would throw the money down on the Gehry building. But there’s not much more to be said here. </li>
</ol>
<p>Well I guess that about wraps it up. Oh and we don’t actually have Hudson River access–you can thank those same Robber Barons for that. Amtrak owns all the land right along the river nowadays.</p>
<p>without getting into other issues raised by N8Ma, this is also true of Oberlin conservatory students:
“Physically, [Oberlin] isn’t a “Conservatory” in the sense that there’s a single building where everything takes place. [Oberlin] Conservatory students are thoroughly integrated into the academic and social life of the College. There’s no separate dorms or dining halls. Rehearsal and performance spaces are distributed widely throughout the campus [though Oberlin has far more practice rooms, all with windows and most with grand pianos]. I may be wrong, but I believe most Conservatory students do not see themselves as defined by one physical structure, but they rather see the entire campus as their home.” It is doubtless true that Oberlin conservatory students spend more time in the conservatory building, which is always hopping, than students at Bard spend in the rather remotely located and quiet music facility.
Oberlin conservatory students all take courses in the college; they live and eat with college students.
It’s also easy to be “more selective” when there is, for example only one on-site piano teacher, as at Bard, as opposed to Oberlin’s large faculty.</p>
<p>“Well I guess that about wraps it up.”</p>
<p>Except for Walter Becker & Donald Fagen, that counts +10.
Though I believe they had a song that suggested otherwise.</p>
<p>mamenyu–thanks for clearing up the integration question. I was led to believe (by someone at Oberlin) that the Con students that weren’t double degree students keep mostly to themselves. I now see that there are no institutional hurdles to integration–Con students are completely immersed, as they would be at a large university with a school of music. For those that do keep to themselves, it is a deliberate choice.</p>
<p>The faculty issue is another important distinction. Given our location, and the size of our student body, all of our instrumental faculty are “applied” or adjunct. Few, if any, derive their main source of income from teaching, but are rather active performers. For piano, the exception is Melvin Chen, who holds an administrative position in the conservatory as well as a professorship in the college. Otherwise, every other teacher on every instrument is a kind of adjunct. You describe this arrangement as if we are somehow inadequate or lacking because of “only one on-site” piano teacher. If someone needs to know their teacher is on campus most days during the week, where they can run in to him or her in the hallway or whatever outside of lessons, they will be best suited for those larger schools where the core faculty are 3/4 or full-time professors, and the majority of their time is spent teaching, instead of performing. </p>
<p>And this does impact the admission process and composition of the student body in a significant way. If you have a full-time prof, you then most likely have a kind of quota system: in order for the school to get their money’s worth, the professor’s contract states they must carry a load of, say 12 private students. So the admission process involves seeing how many openings there will be that year in that studio, and then admitting enough students (anticipating yield) to arrive at 12 again. With us, our faculty aren’t relying on Bard to pay their mortgage, and we don’t require them to teach a designated number of students. The advantage of this is that teachers then only teach students they are really interested in. This is not just an Oberlin thing–all larger music schools run in to this issue: a necessary number of bums on seats to keep the lights on. Some times that means a kind of 80/20 rule–80% of students paying tuition to support 20% of the really talented musicians who attend on scholarships. There are “benchwarmers,” so to speak, at bigger music schools. </p>
<p>monydad – WIN.</p>
<p>When I visited Bard, Chen was the ONLY regular teacher for the piano students. The absence of full time music faculty was the reason the conservatory at Bard felt and looked so dead - school was on but there was literally almost nobody there - a handful of empty practice rooms in a basement area, no lounge, no faculty in offices - no names of the famous faculty in the catalog even posted on the doors. Nor is it true that the best teachers are always the best performers or vice versa; I can think offhand of many examples of great teachers who did not excel as performers, e.g., Veda Kaplinsky, Dorothy DeLay…it’s hard to do both well, as Richard Aaron, the great cello teacher, has said. I think the environment of a music program is very important. I hope Bard has grown and become more lively since I visited in 2007, and will continue to do so - more power to the program and to Leon Botstein’s vision. But I don’t for a minute buy the argument that the students at Bard are in any way superior performers on the whole than those at Oberlin or other larger programs - including the “bench-warmers” - for one thing, many con students at Oberlin choose it over Juilliard, etc. because of the stellar academic offerings in the con and college that are not available at conservatory-only programs (Oberlin has a very large full-time faculty in theory and music history, as well as fabulous academics in humanities, science, and social sciences); for another, few students want to commit to a double degree program they must complete, as at Bard: at Oberlin, students in the double degree program are free to switch to one or the other of the programs at any time, without any problem or penalty, and half do - though that still leaves a substantial number in the double degree program who complete it.</p>