Barnard Admit Rate Lowest Ever

Colleges and Universities A-Z Barnard College
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<p>Columbia University is NOT a “school”. It’s a University, which Webster’s defines as:</p>

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<p>Barnard, Columbia College, and SEAS are all part of the undergraduate “division” mentioned in this definition. They all exist for students to attend so that they can earn Bachelor’s degrees which are granted by the University (Columbia). There are also graduate schools and professional schools which students may attend in order to earn higher degrees from the same University (Columbia). All these degrees are conferred in one giant ceremony (which I attended a couple years ago) by the Trustees of Columbia University.</p>

<p>So, no, Barnard College and Columbia UNIVERSITY are not two separate schools. Barnard College and Columbia College ARE two separate undergraduate divisions/affiliates of the SAME UNIVERSITY: Columbia University.</p>

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<p>RobBun’s just stating what he/she (?) sees on the Barnard page. And the page says this:</p>

<p>The University and the College are intertwined in countless ways: Students at each institution can take courses at the other, live in the same residence halls, share access to twenty-two libraries, and compete together in the Columbia-Barnard Athletic Consortium. Barnard students receive the diploma of the University signed by the presidents of both institutions, and the College is represented in the University Senate.
**At the same time, Barnard is legally separate and financially independent from the University; sets its own student fees; has a separate endowment, administration and faculty, and admissions office; and undertakes its own fund-raising. **</p>

<p>Calmom, you say differently, but it’s hard to ignore the words on Barnard’s own website. (Please understand, I don’t mean this in an accusatory manner.)</p>

<p>Even Columbia and Barnard administration and students have trouble with the relationship between Barnard and Columbia; one person’s statement or viewpoint on college confidential is not the end all be all. I know this is a sore subject that has been repeatedly debated on CC, but new people come here and have to learn about the Barnard and Columbia relationship all the time. Boss51, you’ve probably been talking about the relationship for what… years? judging by one of the most infamous threads… so I understand your impatience and frustration, but accusing RobBun of having an agenda is a bit much, don’t you think?</p>

<p>“So Barnard and Columbia U are two separate schools.”
“Nope. Barnard is an affiliate of Columbia U.”
I think there’s a communication error here. Can’t they be separate (independent) schools (okay, in the case of CU, institution?) and still affiliates of one another?</p>

<p>I agree with what RobBun said in her/his first post and I don’t think it was meant in a malicious manner at all.</p>

<p>In a way, both angles here are right. I quote from the acceptance packet I got from Barnard,
“Barnard is both an independently incorporated education institution and an official college of Columbia University-- a unique position in the world of higher education that simultaneously affords it self-determination and a rich, value-enhancing partnership.”</p>

<p>Anyway, I agree- I’m tired of this issue, and I’ve only been around here for a few months. But it’s something that has to come up every now and again, considering that Barnard and Columbia U has trouble explaining the relationship, themselves.</p>

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<p>Shay, I have no argument with anything you said. Other than that you indicated that either Calmom or I disagree that Barnard is in a unique position in that Columbia University and Barnard enjoy a unique relationship in that they are both “intertwined in countless ways” and at the same time legally separate and financially independent. </p>

<p>We are, I think, saying the same thing. And Calmom and I have been saying this for quite a few years around here! :)</p>

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<p>Thanks a lot, shay33. I have nothing against Barnard but think it’s a great college.</p>

<p>I have noticed there is a lot of talk about how seamless two schools are but ignoring Barnard’s independent identity. Actually a lot of things on campus are handled differently because of that. Isn’t it important for new students to know? For example, Columbia University Career Center tends to take care of their own undergraduate students more by kicking Barnard students out of LionShare. Though some ones may argue that Barnard Career Center is better, they can’t argue that job opportunities on LionShare are much more than Barnard’s NACELink.</p>

<p>I seriously don’t understand why some people here get easily offended when other people say Barnard is an independent college. Isn’t it true?</p>

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<p>Shay, thank you for the link to the It’s Complicated article. It completely assuaged my fears. I feel ridiculous for forgetting that the people who are at CC and Barnard are there for good reasons, because admissions saw that they were tolerant, open-minded, and understanding. It seems like few people follow stereotypes willingly, and are self-aware enough to realize they shouldn’t when they do. Whew.</p>

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But you have to read those words in context with the paragraph immediately preceding it on the page — the gist of the page is “these schools are closely intertwined in many ways… but also exist as legal and financially independent entities”.</p>

<p>It’s like this: you are one person. You not any other person than yourself. Nothing will ever change that. But if you get married, you will also be part of a different legal entity – the marriage - that will impact your ability to be totally independent of your partner, especially if you choose to get married in a community property state.</p>

<p>Most people don’t get confused about marriage. They don’t have any problem seeing their friends both as individuals and as part of a couple. They wouldn’t waste people’s time arguing that John Smith’s wife isn’t really part of the Smith family because she is not the offspring of John Smith’s parents. They understand that she became part of the family when she married her husband, but that she is an independent person who could choose to divorce her husband in the future – and that even while married, she is still a separate person, and yet the marriage is real and continuing </p>

<p>These kinds of alliances and agreements exist all over the place. For example, I was traveling and I rented a car from a company called Advantage. Advantage is a discount rental agency owned by Hertz. Is it the same as Hertz? No – it rents cars at a much lower rate, and the rental lot is located farther from the airport. And yet it is owned by Hertz. In a sense, it directly competes with Hertz, offering lower cost car rentals from the very same airports where Hertz is operating and probably charging twice as much. Do I lose sleep over this concept? No I don’t.</p>

<p>Puerto Rico is an independent commonwealth that is part of the US. Everybody born in Puerto Rico is a US citizen, entitled to move to the US if they want – but they can’t vote in US elections unless they actually move to the US. Puerto Rico is not a state, does not have representation in Congress, etc. So it is an independent country and yet it isn’t. Is this difficult for people to understand? Do people spend endless hours debating the point of whether or not Puerto Rico is part of the US? I don’t think so. </p>

<p>So what is it about the idea that a college can be affiliated with a university, maintaining some aspects of independence but at the same time being an official part of that university and subject to that university’s governance – that is so hard to grasp? </p>

<p>I admit that perhaps my legal education gets in the way of my understanding why this concept should be difficult. It’s just how businesses operate in just about any area that I can imagine. </p>

<p>Columbia U. is not a person. It does not exist at all, legally, except as established by its charter & articles of incorporation. The same is true of Barnard. Both are, in a sense, legal fictions created in order to enable them to do business. To say that Barnard is “legally separate” is not to say that it is entirely separate – it just means that from a legal standpoint, it is possible for Barnard to enter into some types of contracts, to sue or be sued, without involving Columbia U. But that right and power is limited by Barnard’s own agreement with Columbia. So when you look at all the legal documents, not just the one that creates Barnard as its own entity – they you can see that they are, in Barnard’s words, intertwined.</p>

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I don’t think so. I think they explain it very well – I just don’t understand why people think it’s all that complicated. It isn’t even all that unusual – there are all sorts of college affiliations, mergers, etc. I think Cornell’s land grant colleges are kind of confusing … I mean, are they public or private? And how can you have a public college that is part of a private university? As far as I know, most graduate level professional schools affiliated with a university operate both under that university’s umbrella but as legally separate entities.</p>

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<p>I’m not saying I don’t understand the complexities of the social relations among students – that is complicated and there are some tensions, but I know that there are similar tensions at some level or another at just about every college. That is, at the Claremont Colleges, students at Pitzer are worried that students at Pomona look down on them. At some schools there is a hierarchy of fraternities or sororities. Some schools may have tension between on division or another perceived as easier to get into – for example, NYU defers a lot of its CAS applicants to what used to be called the school of General Studies, now called Liberal Studies (probably renamed as an effort to mitigate some of that tension). And even at Columbia there is some tension over the relationship of GS to CC. That’s just a natural tendency whenever there are disparate groupings placed together. My daughter attended elementary & high schools with shared campuses with a different “school” or set of students, and I saw similar kind of tensions & rivalries even among little kids.</p>

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<p>You make perfect sense, calmom. I probably didn’t explain myself clearly enough, but I do think that Barnard, as they themselves say, is both independent from and affiliated with CU.</p>

<p>"But you have to read those words in context with the paragraph immediately preceding it on the page — the gist of the page is “these schools are closely intertwined in many ways… but also exist as legal and financially independent entities”. "
Yes, I realize. That’s why I copy and pasted both paragraphs here.</p>

<p>Sorry, I don’t know why I said “you say differently”. Reading comprehension errors? Thanks for your explanation- you’re right, Barnard and Columbia do clearly define their relationship. It’s just that the social aspects and tensions confuse and muddle it for many people.</p>

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<p>Most of these people are posters on CC who have not actually been to school at either Barnard or CC! :)</p>

<p>For many, if not most, actual students, it’s a non-issue.</p>

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<p>By the way, Shay: congrats on having great options for where you will attend next fall! Have you made a decision yet?</p>

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<p>Thanks churchmusicmom. : ) I’ll most likely be going to Barnard!</p>

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<p>Wahoo! That is exciting!</p>

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<p>Hello everyone! I see that I’m joining the forum a bit late… Anyhow, I was accepted to Barnard a couple of weeks ago and it is in my top 3 of schools I would like to go to. That being said, I was wondering why anyone of you chose to apply/attend Barnard. As I need to make my decision soon, the more information you guys can share with me, the easier I hope it will be for me to make a choice! Thanks for your help :D</p>

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<p>For D1 the decision to apply was largely by feel. She had been to NYC on a choir tour from California as a freshman and liked it. When she visited Barnard for the first time as a Junior it was the worse day of the year. The city was shut down by snow. Her sister had a terrible cold and had to stay in the hotel. But, she felt like she had arrived. If she liked it under those conditions, you can imagine what she thought on a good day. In her first year she took in six musicals and six operas plus various other concerts. Suburban girl from southern California.</p>

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<p>My daughter really wanted to attend school in NYC. She felt really good about Barnard after interviewing there, but wavered between Barnard & NYU as her top choice, and at the last minute applied to Fordham’s Lincoln Center campus a safety. In the end she got into all of those schools, as well as Chicago (which in her eyes was also an acceptably urban environment) – but Barnard’s financial aid package was far more generous than any of the other schools, so there really was no choice left to be made. Barnard had always been one of her top 3 choices in any case – but the point is that she certainly was not going to take on extra debt for the other schools. It’s likely that if the financial aid picture had been different among those 3 schools, that she would have gone with whichever school offered the best package. NYU would clearly have been a better fit socially – but I think that academically Barnard provides a stronger foundation, and now that my d. has graduated I think she is really starting to appreciate the value of her education.</p>

<p>What are you interested in studying? Looking at your other posts, I am assuming that the other two schools you are considering are JHU and Brandeis-- I know that if my d. had that array of options it would have been Barnard without a 2nd thought, but maybe your interests and sense of fit are a little different.</p>

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<p>Well I am highly interested in the mind. I love every aspect of it, and will probably end up majoring in nueroscience or psychology if not both. Also, I have a passion for music. I visited Barnard back in Novemeber and while I liked the atmosphere, I was dissapointed to find that the accomodations for music practicing (I play the piano) are limited, as compared to, say, Brandeis. Additionally, the practice rooms are mostly reserved for music majors, and music, is something which I would minor in. </p>

<p>I plan on revisiting Barnard in the next couple of weeks and hopefully, I will get a second, more encouraging, opnion on the music situation. I also would like to further inquire about what neuroscience facilities and classes are at Barnard-- something that I honestly know little about. Would you happen to know anything about this department?</p>

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<p>Churchmusicmom’s daughter was a neuroscience major & is now in a PhD program, so she can answer the questions you have about that department. </p>

<p>There are music practice rooms in the dorms, at least in the quad, and I think the reservation system is mostly on a first come, first served basis. But I don’t know which (or how many) of the rooms have pianos so I couldn’t tell you about that.</p>

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<p>Hey, Rachel13! </p>

<p>My D did indeed major in neuroscience at Barnard and loved it. Actually, she had no idea of majoring in something like that when she started there; she was very interested in dance and English. But then she took an intro to psych class to begin fulfilling her lab science requirements and fell in love with, pretty much as you said, “every aspect” of the mind!</p>

<p>I can tell you that studying neuroscience at Barnard led to her being accepted at pretty much every program to which she applied for her PhD and she is now at her first choice school. Barnard’s program is, I think, unique in that you get the individual attention from and close relationship with your profs and your advisor that you would expect from a liberal arts college (NO classes taught by grad students!!!), yet you do indeed have the resources of a major research University available to you when it comes to finding lab experience opportunities. She was named an Amgen Scholar (Columbia) the summer after her second year and worked at a lab at the medical center (the psychiatric hospital) for that; then she began working with the professor who became her thesis advisor, and was able to help her set up a new lab where she actually did things like build a Faraday cage and establish techniques and protocols that ended up leading her to her current lab. It’s also very cool that you graduate with your own original research project and Senior thesis…I don’t think many undergraduate programs prepare you in that way, and she began to realize how really unique and great that was as she interviewed for grad programs.</p>

<p>You can select to focus on either Behavioral neuroscience or on Cellular neuroscience at Barnard…or, as my daughter did, fulfill the requirements for both. </p>

<p>Also, my daughter’s best friend and suitemate was a music minor at Barnard. There are pianos in most dorms, i believe, but her roommate just bought a full-sized keyboard that she had in her room to practice on. I really don’t know much about the music program though. Ask me about dance and I could tell you lots!! :slight_smile: Is there someone in the music department that you can contact ahead of time and see if you can schedule a meeting with them? I know that is what our d did with dance department faculty, and they were wonderfully accommodating and informative.</p>

<p>Best to you! Let us know what you decide!</p>

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<p>Thank you both for the wonderful advice! I keep hearing so much wonderful news about Barnard it’s making it hard to even think about anywhere else (which I guess is the point)! Anyhow, when I vistied Barnard, I was told that there were three practice rooms in the basement of the quad-- I don’t see how that is enough for all students majoring and minoring in music to practice on. I was told that students majoring in music have a greater ability to practice on the pianos, understandably, but I don’t know how much time that would leave for non-music majors to use the facilities.</p>

<p>Churchmusicmom-- It’s very comforting knowing that your daughter majored in nueroscience and loved it! When I visited, I sat in on a psychology statistics class and found it to be intriguing, not so much because the topic matter was engaging, but rather beacuse the teacher was so connected to her students. It gave me hope to believe that other Barnard professors are like that too. </p>

<p>I’ll be visiting Barnard again next weekend-- can’t wait to see what else I learn about the college!</p>

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<p>Rachel, I don’t think there are all that many music majors at Barnard, and the practice rooms in the quad are not the only ones available. College Navigator reports 2 students graduating with music majors in 2009-2010 – see [College</a> Navigator - Barnard College](<a href=“College Navigator - Barnard College”>College Navigator - Barnard College) – there are also practice rooms available in Milbank Hall and at 616 (another dorm) – and Schapiro Hall at Columbia has 6 practice rooms available to Barnard students, with 24-hour walkin access – see [Practice</a> Rooms at Columbia University | The Music Performance Program at Columbia University](<a href=“http://music.columbia.edu/mpp/information-students/practice-rooms-columbia-university]Practice”>http://music.columbia.edu/mpp/information-students/practice-rooms-columbia-university) – also there are 3 grand pianos available at Columbia for public use, though I don’t know if you would be comfortable using them for practice. </p>

<p>There are many students at Barnard who play instruments, but I don’t think many are majoring or minoring in music – probably the students who are most serious about music would choose BFA programs or take advantage of cross-registration opportunities with Manhattan School of Music or Julliard. I think the others are probably more interested in just practicing for their own enjoyment, or participating in EC’s involving some level of performance.</p>