Barnard College ?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Columbia University
41

<p>Oh please jomjom do you have any clue what i wrote? being obstinate doesn't get you anywhere. i used the term "de facto" with cause.</p>

<p>I really can't believe you don't understand this, and worse yet that you would use the CC/SEAS admissions office as proof of what the actual culture is like at Columbia.</p>

<p>I went to Columbia and we always talked about columbia as 4 undergraduate schools. CCSC and ESC often liaised and worked with Barnard's SGA as equals. Messaging is different for prospectives because yes there are two different admissions offices and they don't wish to confuse you, further there is a question of official accuracy. And yes there are issues about the officiality that ought to be addressed. When it comes to the broad sense - is Barnard de facto part of the Columbia Community (not under the Trustees of Columbia University, but rather the socialized understanding of what Columbia means) than the answer is throughout years of continuous and symbiotic relationship: yes.</p>

<p>*Okay, so you concede it is part of the community, well then - legally no, a student is not from Barnard College of Columbia University. But socially they are, hence why someone may take advantage of the community concept (perhaps not to infringe too closely on copyright and say they are Barnard College of Columbia (sans the U)) in a manner that communicates the more nuanced and complicated concept: of the intricate relationship between the schools.</p>

<p>If you are concerned with officiality, please stop posting, we understand that. I do hope though you understand that there is no quick True/False to how people represent themselves. And if you don't learn that after a few years at Columbia, then I'd question whether or not you took the Core.</p>

42

<p>
[quote]
somehow complaining about leechers is a rather petty and very elitist thing to do. I know you don't mean it that way LionHeaded, but it is precisely this lack of understanding (why someone might use the CU name) that in the end makes CC/SEAS students look like elitist kids for hating on a school that is quite frankly just as much a part of the Columbia community as any other.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No, I kind of do mean it that way. </p>

<p>There is nothing elitist about it for me. I'm well aware that there are CUNY and NYU students and departments leagues above CU's and don't consider myself an ivy grub. That is exactly the view that some, and I know you don't, take to validate the "I'm a Columbia student- I just live at Barnard" view... That anyone who calls them out on it is being an Elitist and doesn't want to share his toys. Bull.</p>

<p>Someone trying to underplay or altogether remove Barnard from their resume (which I have seen) in favor of a Columbia identity, for all the gravitas it inevitably carries, is doing exactly that. Leeching.</p>

<p>It is not as much of a part of the Columbia community as CC/SEAS for me. It's that simple. Sharing courses and locations does not make it so. To be a Barnard student is to have your own college identity, your own administration, your own credit system, your own employment system, and sports teams. These are small things on their own but together they form a greater college identity. And ultimately; it is just not the same. Two different identities and experiences. CC and SEAS despite courses and req. differences share the same community and identity. Barnard doesn't. </p>

<p>You can be a Barnard student without being a Columbia student. You can't be a SEAS student or GS student without being a Columbia student.</p>

<p>And being here right and having files and forms left and right I can tell you that Barnard isn't considered an undergraduate school of Columbia now. Like at all. It's all GS/SEAS. Barnard is something else. Not worst, not better; just 'else'.</p>

43

<p>^Yup, to drive it home, I'd be pretty pssed off if a Princeton kid claimed to be of Columbia U, even though Princeton is a school with more prestige and name recognition. It's unnecessary misrepresentation. Barnard is not subordinate to Columbia. I can hang out at NYU every weekend and work with a protest group there, and even if I, further took some classes there, I wouldn't be an NYU student. Barnard college students are welcome to say Barnard College, affiliated with Columbia University. Or in conversation, "I go to Barnard College, a Columbia affiliate." This is about what's right. What's important: not too much. As I said before only high school students think everybody gives a sht.</p>

44

<p>LionHeaded - once again, poor example. Forms that are for you would not include Barnard students. But if you look at the situation as having some official representation then you would not get it.</p>

<p>Many of my friends went to Barnard and they were fantastic people, and many students I was friends with you would have no idea what school they attended. It is an idea that is altogether more about the culture we are a part of and that culture I truly believe and most BC girls will concur with me - involves Barnard. A simple example: I was never able to plan an event on campus as a ugrad without thinking of BC students and their potential involvement. So every action taken was with full consideration of how BC students were involved. All student activities involve to some degree BC student life fees funding them through the governing boards (with a slight exception, but unless you are student gov folks, I wont bore you with the exception).</p>

<p>And if your worry is about a Barnard girl transgressing by removing Barnard from their resume, let them, it isn't your problem, they will be caught if it is the case - and if they are not caught, well they would not be the first person to lie about something and get away with it. And yes you are elitist for complaining. It clearly shows that you have a great deal of insecurity of yourself. And please do not paint it in a room of "I just care about representation." Because it is their representation, not yours.</p>

45

<p>This conflict arises every year. In Spring in my house I can count on carpenter ants, crocuses, and ugly comments about Barnard College.</p>

<p>admissionsgeek: Thank you for your very intelligent comments.</p>

<p>My D preferred Barnard to Columbia. She proudly claims her Barnard affiliation. My S preferred Williams. So what?</p>

<p>The history of Barnard is directly related to Columbia University. President Barnard of Columbia University founded Barnard College because the Columbia Board of Trustees refused the admission of women.</p>

<p>So, affiliate status in this case means that Barnard has always been part of Columbia University.</p>

<p>Barnard provides Columbia College with a dance department, a theater department, an urban planning department and an architecture department. Columbia College students wishing to major in these subjects major at Barnard College.</p>

<p>Barnard courses are as challenging as Columbia courses. Most women find their Columbia GPA's higher than their Barnard GPA's.</p>

<p>The number of students crossing east to west on Broadway roughly equals those crossing west to east.</p>

<p>At the Barnard graduation Barnard students are presented for graduation, just as the students from the other schools at their individual graduations. She officially gets her diploma at the Columbia University graduation from President Bollinger.</p>

<p>She did not imagine, invent or create this arrangement. In reality her diploma is conferred by Columbia University.</p>

<p>Perhaps those Columbia College students who don't like this should either take it up with the Columbia University administration or not attend Columbia. </p>

<p>Why pick on Barnard students?</p>

<p>And yes, CC is more selective and its students have higher SAT scores. So what? Barnard students have higher GPA's in HS. Barnard students cannot use Columbia courses for an English major because Barnard, and its Creative Writing Program, is so rigorous in this area.</p>

<p>Margaret Mead, Zora Neale Hurston, Twyla Tharp and Judith Kaye (NYS chief jurist) are among the many Barnard grads Columbia proudly claims.</p>

<p>What is the problem?</p>

46

<p>
[quote]
In Spring in my house I can count on carpenter ants, crocuses, and ugly comments about Barnard College.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>this is because people like you refuse to acknowledge exactly what the argument is. It is over the official nature of the relationship which Barnard students misrepresent. It is a case of misrepresentation, not a case of elitism or who's better as you have stealthily implied in your post. The argument wouldn't change an iota if Barnard had twice the endowment and half the acceptance rate. So most of what you have argued for/against is irrelevant.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The number of students crossing east to west on Broadway roughly equals those crossing west to east.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>the number of classes cross registered for, are the same. But Barnard has 1/4-1/3 of the students so the average Barnard student registers at Columbia 3-4 times more than vice-versa. Let's not pick inappropriate metrics here.</p>

47

<p>Sigh...every time I think I'm out, they pull me back in. <em>cracks neck</em> Let's do this.</p>

<p>
[quote]
This conflict arises every year. In Spring in my house I can count on carpenter ants, crocuses, and ugly comments about Barnard College.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Get some Terro, alternate with some Daffodils for a lovelier palette, and redefining your meaning of "ugly". </p>

<p>
[quote]

The history of Barnard is directly related to Columbia University. President Barnard of Columbia University founded Barnard College because the Columbia Board of Trustees refused the admission of women.</p>

<p>So, affiliate status in this case means that Barnard has always been part of Columbia University.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The history of Oxford and Cambridge are directly related. All the ivies are related by being well, ivies. French and Spanish both come from Latin. Toothpaste was developed from adhesive resin....You see the point here, right? Having connections does not make two distinct things the same.</p>

<p>If someone were to list all the differences between CU and Barnard, it would take pages. From taxes, tenure packages, to alumni contributions and 100% distinct endowment declarations(and these are only those I know about off the top of my head).</p>

<p>Ultimately none of these matter because the distinction is much, MUCH broader than that and it can be voiced in 4 words: THEY ARE DIFFERENT SCHOOLS. </p>

<p>Do you apply to Columbia to get into Barnard? NO.
Do you apply to Columbia to get into CC/GS/SEAS? YES.</p>

<p>
[quote]

So, affiliate status in this case means that Barnard has always been part of Columbia University.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Not even a little, no.</p>

<p>
[quote]

Barnard provides Columbia College with a dance department, a theater department, an urban planning department and an architecture department. Columbia College students wishing to major in these subjects major at Barnard College.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No, they take a bulk of courses at the Barnard facilities yes, but their major is not a Barnard major (like Economics is a CC major or engineering is a SEAS major). Huge difference. At the graduate level of the film school, many students take courses at NYU. Lots of courses as they have the best film facilities in Manhattan and the two schools have an arrangement. They're still not getting their degrees from NYU!</p>

<p>
[quote]

The number of students crossing east to west on Broadway roughly equals those crossing west to east.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, I'm convinced. Bypassing the obvious argument of restaurants, subway mouths, housing facilities that require to cross Broadway to your intent for this statement, all this states is an overlap in facilities, which is not being argued here.</p>

<p>
[quote]

At the Barnard graduation Barnard students are presented for graduation, just as the students from the other schools at their individual graduations. She officially gets her diploma at the Columbia University graduation from President Bollinger.</p>

<p>She did not imagine, invent or create this arrangement. In reality her diploma is conferred by Columbia University.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>A shared tent does not an institution make.</p>

<p>I'm really, really curious to see CC and Barnard diploma side by side. Because as it stands the correspondence, headings, and financial documents from both schools are different. I'm having a really hard time believing that the the DIPLOMAS would be the same. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Perhaps those Columbia College students who don't like this should either take it up with the Columbia University administration or not attend Columbia.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Perhaps the students so desperate for the Columbia name on their diploma - which I am aware is not the bulk of the Barnard student body - should apply and attend Columbia? Hmm?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Why pick on Barnard students?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I normally find this smilie obnoxious beyond reason but seeing as I literally did this when I read that line, I feel that it is warranted: :rolleyes:</p>

<p>* Sir, we've reviewed your resume and found no record of you at Goldman& Sachs.
Oh, hum, well technically I worked for Cosette Advertising b-but we shared the same building. Same cafeteria and everything!
Sir, that does not make you an G&S employ...
YOU'RE PICKING ON ME! *</p>

<p>For all the posts that start with "X prefers Barnard over Columbia" they all inevitably seem to go on to argue for the fact that the two schools are the same. Don't you find that odd? "I love B so much that it's A". </p>

<p>Love your school, embrace it as the wonderful and unique space it is with a variety of programs and professors which Barnard very much is. DON'T try to pass it off as the girl next door. </p>

<p>Im in a class at Barnard right now, I have Barnard friends, I dont hiss when I see a Barnard ID (Ha! Different IDs!), but I'm not gonna pretend they're the same school to please you either. Just like you allegedly love your school, I love mine. Harvard could be next door that I would still acknowledge that I'm a damn Lion (though I'd suck their resources dry). </p>

<p>Call me an elitist, call me an anti-feminist, call me a pampered ivier, or just call me a guy the uncanny ability to tell between the two different institutions on either side of the street.</p>

<p>Thanks for playing,</p>

48

<p>concoll...i am not sure what you are saying. it isn't the number of classes cross registered. but rather the statistic that I last read
said about 40% of Barnard students cross register, and 40% of students take advantage of cross registration from Columbia (CC/SEAS). it was based on students and not based on number of classes each student might cross register. the stats were used to defend the equality of cross-registration when the myth out there was that bc students were using it in more frequency than cc students.</p>

49

<p>I love how there's always flaming on Barnard/Columbia threads.</p>

50

<p>I really don't understand any of this. What's wrong with being admitted to, attending and graduating from Barnard College, one of the top LACs in the country? Even lay people in the business of admitting graduate students and hiring college graduates know that Barnard has some relationship with Columbia. Amherst students, I suspect, feel no need to clarify that UMass-Amherst is not affiliated with Amherst, even though Amherst students may take courses there. Why the hoopla about the Columbia/Barnard issue?</p>

51

<p>Admissionsgeek, here's what I'm talking about:</p>

<p>from: About</a> Barnard College
"Typically, Barnard students take an average of 7,000 courses a year at Columbia, while Columbia students take an average of 6,600 courses a year at Barnard."</p>

<p>So the average Barnard students registers 3x at Columbia, than the average Columbia student registers at Barnard. This has nothing to do with the discussion anymore. Lionheaded clears everything up.</p>

52

<p>All of both Columbia and Barnard documents say that "Barnard is legally separate and financially independent from the Columbia University". It does not matter how many people corss register or Barnard being present at commencement. </p>

<p>Barnard students can NOT say "Barnard College of Columbia", nor " I got BA from Columbia. nor " I graduated from Columbia." because Barnard is not part of Columbia. Even Barnard web site clear states that Barnard is "independent from the Columbia University."</p>

<p>If you can find any official document stating that Barnard is part of Columbia, then show us the link. Again every single official document about Columbia-Barnard relationship states that ::</p>

<p>Barnard is NOT part of Columbia. or Barnard is independent from the University.</p>

53

<p>
[quote]
Lionheaded clears everything up.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>He usually does. :)</p>

<p>I've also heard he's a fantastic lover. Passionate but not selfish.</p>

54

<p>actually jomjom, barnard students can say whatever they please. whether or not they are legally infringing upon Columbia's trademark by doing so, well that is for the courts to discuss.</p>

<p>concoll - thanks for the info though i still think the 40% number of students (and not courses) involved cross registration is a more telling number, will look for it. i think it only makes sense that barnard students are more apt to take more than one course at columbia than the other way around - but as the clause right before the one you quoted mentions, it has to do with the relative sizes of the institutions. i took 1 History course at Barnard to supplement my major at Columbia, whereas Barnard students have dozens of options available to support completing their major. </p>

<p>I don't know how you think the dribble Lionheaded wrote "cleared" things up, it concerns itself with the tedious so much that it lacks a solid understanding of the actuality of the Barnard-Columbia relationship. Being proud of going to Barnard is implicitly being proud of participating in the Columbia community for many students (not all). Whereas yes as a man it may not seem as particular to say that that Columbia has a dependent relationship with Barnard whereby it is a necessary and vital part of the educational and social experience, believing anything but the contrary is so brazenly myopic that it says more about LionHeaded than it does about anything else. Developing horrible comparisons and not actually reflecting on what it means to go to school at Columbia is to be fair the stupidest response you could offer. But LionHeaded does it in such a way that he feels he can finish with the hyper-macho "Thank you for playing," as he gives his best friend a high-five. Real classy. Welcome to the real-world dumbo, Barnard is part of Columbia, perhaps not in the narrow sense you would like to construct, but a history of Columbia devoid of mention or attention to Barnard is like any elitist history out there. </p>

<p>Be proud that you are a Lion. I hope you use your years at Columbia to take that chip off your shoulder and act like a man.</p>

55

<p>
[quote]
The history of Barnard is directly related to Columbia University. President Barnard of Columbia University founded Barnard College because the Columbia Board of Trustees refused the admission of women.
So, affiliate status in this case means that Barnard has always been part of Columbia University.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Columbia-Barnard are two separate institution. That is why they need this ‘affiliation agreement’. CC/SEAS does not need affiliation agreemtn because they are completely part of Columbia. And Barnard web site states that “ Barnard is legally separate and financially independent from the University;” Harvard is founded by Cambridge graduate. Is Harvard part of Cambridge ?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Barnard provides Columbia College with a dance department, a theater department, an urban planning department and an architecture department. Columbia College students wishing to major in these subjects major at Barnard College.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes under affiliation agreement they can share the resources between TWO SEPARATE institution. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Barnard courses are as challenging as Columbia courses. Most women find their Columbia GPA's higher than their Barnard GPA's.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes, Barnard students are smarter. So tell the world that you are from Barnard. (affiliate of Columbia). And Barnard is still separate from Columbia. </p>

<p>
[quote]
The number of students crossing east to west on Broadway roughly equals those crossing west to east.

[/quote]

Yes . Barnard courses are popular. But Barnard is still not part of Columbia. </p>

<p>
[quote]
At the Barnard graduation Barnard students are presented for graduation, just as the students from the other schools at their individual graduations. She officially gets her diploma at the Columbia University graduation from President Bollinger.
She did not imagine, invent or create this arrangement. In reality her diploma is conferred by Columbia University.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The Barnard diploma is signed by presidents from two separate school. CC/SEAS diploma is signed by Deans and CU president (from ONE president). Besides it does not matter who signs the diplomat because Barnard document clearly states that “ Barnard is legally separate and financially independent from the University;”
You can say you got diploma signed by Columbia president. But you can NOT say
I got BA from Barnard College of Columbia. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Perhaps those Columbia College students who don't like this should either take it up with the Columbia University administration or not attend Columbia.
Why pick on Barnard students?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Both Columbia-Barnard administrators clearly tate that that “ Barnard is legally separate and financially independent from the University;” However, Barnard students are ignoring this statement and kept say Barnard is part of Columbia, which is not true. </p>

<p>CC/SEAS understands the meaning of ”legally separate and financially independent from the University”. Barnard student don’t. </p>

<p>
[quote]
And yes, CC is more selective and its students have higher SAT scores. So what? Barnard students have higher GPA's in HS. Barnard students cannot use Columbia courses for an English major because Barnard, and its Creative Writing Program, is so rigorous in this area.</p>

<p>Margaret Mead, Zora Neale Hurston, Twyla Tharp and Judith Kaye (NYS chief jurist) are among the many Barnard grads Columbia proudly claims.</p>

<p>What is the problem?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Good for Barnard. So Tell the world that you are from Barnard, an independent school “affiliated” with Columbia. Under affiliation agreement the University may say that Barnard graduate are affiliated member of Columbia community. NOT part of Columbia. Why ? because Barnard-Columbia documents states that “Barnard is egally separate and financially independent from the University” Why is it so difficult to understand this statement for Barnard student ?</p>

56

<p>
[quote]
barnard students can say whatever they please. whether or not they are legally infringing upon Columbia's trademark by doing so, well that is for the courts to discuss

[/quote]

Yes. Barnard students can say "PhD in Law from Barnard College of Oxford University and Harvard University. " or say I got my MD from Barnard College of Yale Law school.</p>

57

<p>Barnard</a> Dance
Barnard</a> Department of Theatre
Barnard</a> Economics
Mathematics</a> at Barnard
Barnard</a> History - Main
Political</a> Science, Barnard College</p>

<p>Barnard departmental pages often use Barnard College, Columbia University. Are they deluding themselves too?</p>

58

<p>
[quote]

I don't know how you think the dribble Lionheaded wrote "cleared" things up, it concerns itself with the tedious so much that it lacks a solid understanding of the actuality of the Barnard-Columbia relationship. Being proud of going to Barnard is implicitly being proud of participating in the Columbia community for many students (not all). Whereas yes as a man it may not seem as particular to say that that Columbia has a dependent relationship with Barnard whereby it is a necessary and vital part of the educational and social experience, believing anything but the contrary is so brazenly myopic that it says more about LionHeaded than it does about anything else. Developing horrible comparisons and not actually reflecting on what it means to go to school at Columbia is to be fair the stupidest response you could offer. But LionHeaded does it in such a way that he feels he can finish with the hyper-macho "Thank you for playing," as he gives his best friend a high-five. Real classy. Welcome to the real-world dumbo, Barnard is part of Columbia, perhaps not in the narrow sense you would like to construct, but a history of Columbia devoid of mention or attention to Barnard is like any elitist history out there.</p>

<p>Be proud that you are a Lion. I hope you use your years at Columbia to take that chip off your shoulder and act like a man.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>....There's a saying in debate circles that says that the first to throw an insult is the first to lose the discussion. Food for thought. </p>

<p>My shoulders are chip-free I'm afraid. I've stated my opinion, returning many times to the simple ** fact ** that they're different school and given gardening tips. That's really all I can do. </p>

<p>I've been around here long enough to know when someone wants a clear discussion and when they're taking a thread as a way to see who has the biggest e-d**k. Congratulations, sonny; it's you. If a Barnard-Columbia thread is how you define your manhood then power to you. I'm sure your parents are proud.</p>

<p>I'll post when and if someone else says something interesting or wildly inaccurate.</p>

59

<p>jomjom,</p>

<p>Why are you so vehement about this? Why do you care so much? It almost seems like your identity is so tied up in where you're going to school that you take Barnard girls claiming Columbia as a personal sleight. I'm not detracting from the merits of your argument, just questioning your rhetoric. The impression I'm getting is a little sad. </p>

<p>I understand the purpose of having a fruitful debate, but, in my opinion, your tone in this thread has been quite immature and, well...unbecoming of a Columbia student.</p>

60

<p>When I saw Lionheaded Junior, I knew that this was a man destined for greatness. It would not be an untruth to say that Mandingo Jr. needs to do some growing to catch up. :D</p>