<p>"Barnard students are not allowed. "
Nor are student at College of General Studies.</p>
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. That is a totally false statement. Barnard is and always has been affiliated with Columbia U., with Columbia always maintaining a varying degree of control over faculty hiring, tenure, and curriculum.</p>
<p>Historically Barnard was created as separate school because of opposition to coeducational education at the undergraduate level. The same situation applied to the Columbia Teacher’s College, which historically provided a program leading to an undergraduate degree, though it is now focused on graduate level education. </p>
<p>The first graduating class of Barnard received their diplomas in a ceremony together with Columbia graduation. </p>
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<p>Actually, from a legal standpoint, that would make the Barnard diploma <em>stronger</em> – a document that is signed or authorized by two authorities is not invalidated. It becomes harder to invalidate. </p>
<p>However, all degrees from Columbia University, with the exception of honorary degrees, need to be signed by the head of the faculty under which the student studied, as well as the President of the University. So Columbia College graduates do indeed have a diploma that is “validated” by two individuals, their Dean and the University President.</p>
<p>I’d note that up until 1952, the head of Barnard College was designated “Dean”. Millicent McIntosh became Dean of Barnard in 1947. In 1952, her title was changed to President – she continued to hold that position for another 10 years, until 1962.</p>
<p>Thanks for your post, as always, Calmom. </p>
<p>For further clarification (and at the risk of being redundant): nobody here is trying to say that Columbia College is the same as Barnard. Nor would any Barnard student (or their parents) want them to be the same. The differences between the two undergraduate experiences have indeed been celebrated on this forum. </p>
<p>We also recognize and understand that Barnard COLLEGE and Columbia UNIVERSITY are also not the same. To assert that they are would just be silly. Barnard does, however, fall under the Columbia University academic “umbrella” and, as a consequence of this fact, enjoys the distinction of being at the same time an independent liberal arts college for women AND part of a large research university. As such, students at Barnard do get access to many, many classes at Columbia AND to research opportunities AND to campus activities and clubs. These are facts.</p>
<p>Again, this is not to assert that the experiences of a Barnard student will be the same as a Columbia College, or SEAS, or GS student (for that matter). They will be different in many ways that have been discussed in this forum extensively.</p>
<p>It’s not just a matter of “access”. The reason this is important in a Barnard thread is that the prospective Barnard students should understand that the Columbia affiliation is a significant part of their experience. They probably will not be able to complete their distribution requirements without taking some courses at Columbia. It might be possible in theory – I am sure there are a handful of students who have done it – but I don’t see how my daughter could have done it. She knew going in what foreign language she was studying-- the classes she needed to fulfill her language requirements were at Columbia, even though she worked closely with the head of the department… at Barnard. </p>
<p>She was required to take a lab science for a year to meet Barnard requirements – she opted to fulfill that at Barnard, with highly regarded and excellent professor. But the required lab was at Columbia. </p>
<p>To fill her quantitative reasoning (math) requirement, she wanted to take statistics. That makes sense for her major, in any case – its probably the most useful type of math for a social science major to have. But there were no introductory classes at Barnard that would have fit her schedule – again, she went to Columbia. </p>
<p>She was required to take an arts course – she opted to fill that with a film class at Columbia. In that case, there was plenty to choose from at Barnard – but the Columbia class was definitely the best fit for her interests.</p>
<p>I think it would be misleading for a prospective Barnard student to be told that the schools were entirely “separate” – because it is possible that a student seeking a LAC experience might be misled. Some of my d’s classes at Columbia were taught by grad students, not full professors; some of the classes were large lectures, where she had to attend recitations with TA’s. I don’t think that was a bad thing, but I know that some parents and applicants are trying to avoid that. If someone was coming to Barnard thinking that she would only have small, intimate classes-- its important to know that the school is structured around shared resources and an integrated class system with Columbia. It’s important to know that a HUGE number of classes are not “BC” (Barnard) courses, but “W” (joint Barnard/Columbia) courses – and those “W” courses can be given on either campus, by faculty affiliated with either college. </p>
<p>If someone was coming to Barnard who strongly wanted an all-female experience – that person needs to know that every aspect of “student life” – almost all of the various clubs and organized activities – encompass students from all colleges. Even activities that are tied to the Barnard campus – such as WBAR radio – are open to participation by Columbia students. I think the only Barnard-exclusive activity would be participation in Barnard student government.</p>
<p>The Columbia affiliation was a definite plus for my daughter – as was the Manhattan location. My d. was on the subways and all over town from day #1 – she did not lead a Barnard-centric life. But there may be prospective students who envision something different – who don’t realize that, as my daughter found out her first semester, that they may be eating meals in Columbia dining halls because they literally do no have time to get back over to the Barnard campus in time to eat because their schedule has put them in a Columbia building too close too meal time. </p>
<p>It is very obvious that billkamix and similar posters have never even been to either the Columbia or Barnard campus, and certainly has no understanding whatsoever of the extreme degree of integration of the campuses and respective programs. But there are many students who may be considering Barnard specifically because they are looking for a LAC with the concept of it being a traditional, unitary campus – or because they strongly want to the all-women experience. They may be visualizing a very different situation than the one that really exists. </p>
<p>It would be as if someone came on line and tried to convince others that Morningside Heights wasn’t really part of Manhattan – that it was a sleepy, quiet, protected neighborhood apart from the rest of the city… because after all, it doesn’t look anything like midtown. I know that some do try to downplay the Harlem connection – but again, that could be very misleading to someone who has never visited and perhaps comes from a small town or rural community and has something very different in mind.</p>
<p>You make a fantastic point, calmom! While someone who expects to attend Barnard and have the exact same experience as someone in Columbia College will certainly be disappointed, someone who expects to attend Barnard and have the same experience as Wellesley will be incredibly unhappy. Barnard is much more LAC-like than Columbia College (a good friend of mine specifically applied to Barnard over Columbia because she loved the strong advising program), but it’s nothing like an LAC (let alone a Seven Sisters school) in the middle of nowhere. I think we can all agree that the most important thing for prospective applicants is to research these schools, find out what the experience is like, and then consider what they want their college experience to be like.</p>
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This is false. Because Barnard degree is not valid without signature of Barnard president and Barnard Seal, it is wrong to say Barnard degree is Columbia degree.
Here are the list of degree awarded by Columbia University .<a href=“http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abstract/degrees%20and%20certificates%20awarded%202008-2009.htm[/url]”>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abstract/degrees%20and%20certificates%20awarded%202008-2009.htm</a>
Barnard is not included in ‘UNIVERSITY TOTAL’ because it is not recongnized as full columbia degree.</p>
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<p>Here is is the official headcount enrollment of Columbia University.
<a href=“Columbia OPIR”>Columbia OPIR;
<p>Barnard students are not officially enolled at Columbia University.</p>
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Tuft university students take course at Harvard Law school for masters degree awarded from Tufts. But that does not mean that Tut U is part of Harvard. Tuft and Harvard two separate institution affliated with each other. </p>
<p>Harvard and MIT also have similar affilation agreement, but that does not mean the MIT is part of Harvard.</p>
<p>As much as I hate to get mixed up in the fray, I think bilkamix may have just ended the discussion. The head count statistics do seem quite clear. Now let it go…</p>
<p>Fact: Barnard college is listed as an affiliate of Columbia University on Columbia’s web page. A Barnard student will take classes at Columbia, be a part of the campus life there, and will (hopefully!! ) eventually receive a degree bearing the Columbia University seal as well as the signature of its president. Barnard is NOT a typical small liberal arts college; nor is it a typical women’s college, largely BECAUSE of the affiliation Barnard has with Columbia University. It’s something that must be considered by any potential student, and that is why it’s discussed here.</p>
<p>The other pertinent facts relative to a potential Barnard student’s experiences as a member of the Columbia University greater community have been discussed here over and over, and by individuals who have direct experience with Barnard and Columbia either as a student there or as the parent of a student. Billkamix is neither of those things.</p>
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<p>sort of true … there are a few courses at Columbia that Barnard students can not take (especially the core courses) … however Barnard students are allowed to take the vast majority courses at Columbia (and visa versa) … in addition, taking classes is not a cross school registration process when signing up for classes the Barnard students just sign up for the Columbia classes (which are listed in the Barnard couse catalog).</p>
<p>I really like calmom’s last post because I think it gives a very fair and accurate view of life at Barnard. Barnard and Columbia are different schools with different experiences but there’s such a great deal of affiliation and intersection that it’s silly to pretend that there isn’t significant interaction between the schools.</p>
<p>The only reason I’ve gotten involved in this at all is because I worry that the few posters here who take great pains to point out that Barnard is not Columbia–with the clear intention to disparage Barnard-- may scare away prospective students. My own kid was initially put off by the Barnard/Columbia talk. She never regarded herself as a second class citizen and had no interest in attending a school where she would have to deal with condescending comments from others in her classes and in her community. I’m happy to report that this attitude is not pervasive by any means and it’s truly nonexistent as kids adjust to their college experiences, mix with each other, and frankly, grow up. It shows up in places like this or Ivygate or bwog and honestly, I think it flares up when things get too boring. Occasionally there are also some choice comments leveled at the General Studies people-- and these are the students my daughter finds most compelling and interesting. </p>
<p>By the way, why do Columbia people end up visiting and posting on this forum? What brings you here? I’m truly curious.</p>
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<p>Barnard is, of course, excellent school. However, it is not part of Columbia.
Columbia’ s Official documents shows that Barnard students are not enrolled at Columbia and Barnard degrees are not full Columbia degree (look at what diploma says).<br>
<a href=“http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abstract/degrees%20and%20certificates%20awarded%202008-2009.htm[/url]”>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abstract/degrees%20and%20certificates%20awarded%202008-2009.htm</a>
<a href=“Columbia OPIR”>Columbia OPIR;
<p>Barnard students can take limisted number of columbia courses and participate limited social activities at Columbia. Tufts university students can take most Harvard/MIT courses and joint some of harvard/MIT social activities. Tuft is part of Harvard/MIT community the say way that Barnard is part of Columbia community.</p>
<p>THanks Billkamix !!</p>
<p>The official headcount clearly shows who is part of Columbia .</p>
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I’m very sure that “billkamix” is not a student at Columbia. I don’t know the motivation, but the posts demonstrate such an abject level of ignorance that they cannot be coming from someone with even passing familiarity with the campuses. There are some Columbia students who resent Barnard’s presence and they will typically make derogatory comments about Barnard students … but they don’t deny the fact of the affiliation. </p>
<p>If someone wanted to debate the relative merits of one program or another, you could have an intelligent discussion. For example, you could discuss the pros and cons of a single gender educational approach or the core curriculum – and valid things could be said on both side.</p>
<p>But there is no issue to debate when it come to the fact that the diploma is issued by Columbia University. A person has to be either ignorant, insane, stupid beyond belief, or a deliberate liar to make such a claim. Whether a person likes that fact or not – it’s simply a fact, apparent on the face of the diploma itself, and certainly obvious to anyone who has ever sat through a University commencement ceremony. And again, I don’t think you would see a Columbia College student making such a claim.</p>
<p>Calman, why are so desperately saying that Barnard is part of Columbia ??</p>
<p>I think the Statistical Abstract clearly shows that Barnard degrees are not fully awarded by Columbia ( and Barnard students are not Columbia student. ) </p>
<p>What more evidence do you want ?</p>
<p>I don’t need any evidence. I have a copy of my daughter’s diploma. </p>
<p>And you are not fooling anyone with your change of screen name. Until you learn to construct a grammatically correct English sentence, your posts will always be readily identifiable.</p>
<p>I graduated from Columbia College and calmom never attended Barnard.<br>
She doen’t know what she is talking about. </p>
<p>Your daughter’s diploma says Barnard degree is validated by signature of Barnard president wtih Barnard Seal and therefore it is not a full columbia degree.</p>
<p>Fully 20 of Billkamix’s 30 posts on CC have been either on this thread (same thing over and over) or the “Barnard” thread over on the Columbia University forum (again, same thing over and over). The remaining posts do not demonstrate any significant knowledge about life as a student at Columbia. I have enough respect for Columbia University and for Columbia College and the quality of education offered there that I in no way believe that this person ever attended CC. </p>
<p>Billkamix, I cannot even imagine your possible motivation here for posting things that are patently untrue, or at least misinterpreted. Why are you so obsessed and insecure about Barnard?</p>
<p>I doubt the poster in question has ever graduated high school.</p>