barnard?

[Sam_Lee]

<p>

A more accurate way of describing it would be “matriculate” – but you have to keep in mind that most universities are made up of subsidiary colleges. When I was an undergrad, I was at a public u. enrolled in one school (college of letters and science), but discovered that another school on the same campus (college of agriculture) had the major I wanted, so I transferred. It wasn’t as difficult as transferring to a whole new university, but I did have to fill out a bunch of paperwork, and I did have a whole different set of basic general ed requirements at the different school, where I was studying for a B.S. degree rather than the B.A. I would have earned if I had stayed at the first college. Also, it was a big campus and the buildings for the college of agriculture were in an area clearly separate from the other buildings. There was also a school of engineering at that university – again, separate and distinct from the other undergraduate colleges, but I took a couple of classes there. There was no impediment to course enrollment – that is, I could sign up for classes anywhere.

</p>

<p>But in most of those schools, there’s only one undergraduate admission for the whole university. There’s only one set of admission stats published for college guides…etc. Also, students can transfer between those colleges in many of those universities. That’s not the case for Barnard vs Columbia.</p>

<p>I do think a Barnard student should tell others “I go/went to Barnard”. If someone says “I went to Columbia”, my mind is thinking of the Ivy Leauge school with ~10% admission rate and 1460 average SAT, not the one with 27% admission rate with 1360 average SAT. I agree with you the actual organizational structure/affiliation is more complicated than usual; that’s why there’s room to rationalize; but I think anyone that goes to Barnard is smart enough to figure out what the perception is out there and hence what is misleading and what isn’t.</p>

[calmom]

<p>

But in most of those schools, there’s only one undergraduate admission for the whole university.

</p>

<p>That’s not true – often there are very different admission standards for the different colleges, and the student must designate the college in their application forms. For example, my d. applied to NYU – she was interested in more than one program offered by NYU, but she had to choose a specific school. In the case of NYU, there is actually more separation among some of the undergraduate colleges when it comes to availability of courses and enrollment procedures. </p>

<p>

There’s only one set of admission stats published for college guides…etc.

Not necessarily true and that’s just a publishing/reporting convention in any case. Very often the admission rates and criteria for admission are quite variable from one school to another. Also, even if the college board web site or us news doesn’t report differential admission stats, you might be able to get that information from the individual college itself.</p>

<p>My d. actually used that differences to her advantage in her NYU application, above - choosing to apply to Gallatin over A&S in part because she knew her chances were much better there, despite the fact that statistical rate of admission is almost identical for both schools. (Her “individualized study” qualities were better than her test scores, so she knew she would do better with a more qualitative evaluation). NYU chooses not to publish different stats, but if it did I think you would likely see higher test score range for Stern students as compared to Steinhardt or Tisch because of admission priorities.</p>

<p>

Also, students can transfer between those colleges in many of those universities. That’s not the case for Barnard vs Columbia.

</p>

<p>Not true either. It varies – but at many universities it is damn near impossible to get into some of the undergraduate colleges as a transfer, or to move from certain programs to others within the same university. And Barnard & Columbia students can apply to transfer to the other schools - it is rare, but it is done on occasion. (Though obviously male Columbia students can’t transfer to Barnard). But one reason it may be very rare is simply because the cross-enrollment for courses is so open – that is, there is not much reason to go through the process of transfer. Columbia students can opt to major in areas offered only by Barnard, and Barnard students can opt for majors housed at Columbia if there is no equivalent offered at Barnard. So unlike the situation I faced years ago – of a major that was closed to me unless I transfered, the Columbia student who wants to major in architecture does not have to change colleges to do so.</p>

[calmom]

<p>

I do think a Barnard student should tell others “I go/went to Barnard”. If someone says “I went to Columbia”, my mind is thinking of the Ivy Leauge school with ~10% admission rate and 1460 average SAT, not the one with 27% admission rate with 1360 average SAT.

But that’s a rather shallow thought process… and a definite misunderstanding of the concept of an “average”. What about the Columbia undergrad who applied ED (about double the admission rate) and got in with a 1360 SAT? What about the Barnard undergrad who came in RD, but happens to have a 1500 SAT? </p>

<p>By the time the student graduates, no one cares how they got in – they care how they got out. The Barnard grad with a 3.9 GPA is probably going to be looked on more favorably in a head-to-head job interview than a Columbia grad with a 2.8 GPA; and the Barnard math major may do better seeking employment with an accounting firm than a Columbia philosophy major for reasons that have nothing to do with which school is listed. </p>

<p>

I think anyone that goes to Barnard is smart enough to figure out what the perception is out there and hence what is misleading and what isn’t.

It’s only misleading in certain contexts. When Barnard students are participating in Columbia student associations or athletics, or doing work for Columbia departments or professors, it could be confusing to identify themselves to outsiders as anything other than a representative of Columbia. (I don’t think you would want to hear spectators at an Ivy League basketball game shouting, “Go, Barnard!” every time a Barnard woman on the team made a basket.)</p>

<p>Similarly, when talking to people who are not familiar with Barnard in a casual context, it’s often easier to say “Columbia” – despite what Columbia students imagine, it’s not all about bragging. Sometimes it’s just a matter of giving directions. (Note that the subway stop to reach the Barnard dorms is labeled “Columbia University”)</p>

<p>Of course it would be misleading if a Barnard student wrote “Columbia” on their resume for job hunting in any form other than writing “Barnard College, Columbia University”. I understand why high school students get irked when some classmate who has been admitted to Barnard announces to everyone that she is going to “Columbia” – high schoolers competing for admission spots tend to be acutely aware of the difference. But once there the students are potentially involved in array of activities under the Columbia umbrella. When she is asked, “who are you with” or “where are you from”, she’s going to answer in context.</p>

[Sam_Lee]

<p>

But that’s a rather shallow thought process… and a definite misunderstanding of the concept of an “average”. What about the Columbia undergrad who applied ED (about double the admission rate) and got in with a 1360 SAT? What about the Barnard undergrad who came in RD, but happens to have a 1500 SAT?

Even a community college would have a few kids with 1500 SAT. What about them? Nothing. It doesn’t change the fact that some people perceive you differently at the first glance, if their percpetion is based on which school you went to. I am not saying that’s right or wrong; I am just describing a behavior.

By the time the student graduates, no one cares how they got in – they care how they got out. The Barnard grad with a 3.9 GPA is probably going to be looked on more favorably in a head-to-head job interview than a Columbia grad with a 2.8 GPA; and the Barnard math major may do better seeking employment with an accounting firm than a Columbia philosophy major for reasons that have nothing to do with which school is listed

Then there’s more reason to be yourself, which means a Barnard student should tell people, “I go/went to Barnard”.

Similarly, when talking to people who are not familiar with Barnard in a casual context, it’s often easier to say “Columbia”

<br>
It doesn’t really matter if people are not familiar with where you went, except when you get lost and need a direction, as you mentioned. There are over 1000 colleges and I probably haven’t heard more than half of it. It’s not like people are wondering if it’s accredited if they haven’t heard it. But I guess it matters if you care about this thing called prestige.</p>

[billkamix]

<p>according to MIDDLE STATES COMMISSION ON HIGHER EDUCATION
Barnard and Columbia U are accredited separately.</p>

<p>[Middle</a> States Commission on Higher Education](<a href=“msache.org”>msache.org)</p>

<p>[Middle</a> States Commission on Higher Education](<a href=“msache.org”>msache.org)</p>

<p>Please note that Columbia College and SEAS do not need separate accredition because
CC/SEAS is part of Columbia University.</p>

[hannahbanana94]

<p>Ok, for the person who said no one would choose Barnard over CC-I definately would. I took a campus tour of CC today and just did not get a good feel from it. I would say I have a chance as good as anyone at CC-I have a double legacy at CU, parents who donate money, and decent grades, etc. But I am applying to Barnard ED because I love the sense of community Barnard provides, I don’t like “The Core”. I will enjoy the benefits of CU, such as classes, the fitness center, and a sorority, but would never choose CC over BC.</p>

[hellojan]

<p>Hannah, don’t let all the hair-splitting discourage you. On a day to day basis, this debate will remain here and you’ll be there, enjoying both what Columbia has to offer and what Barnard has to offer. </p>

<p>Everybody, CC/SEAS/GS/BC, eat together, run clubs together, play sports together, socialize together, and often take classes together. This whole identity crisis is a non-issue.</p>

[billkamix]

<p>

Everybody, CC/SEAS/GS/BC, eat together, run clubs together, play sports together, socialize together, and often take classes together. This whole identity crisis is a non-issue.

</p>

<p>Nope…
Baranrd students are not allowed at CC/SEAS dorms.<br>
Some clubs are for CC/SEAS only and Barnard students are prohibited.
Barnard students can NOT join Some sports and social activities<br>
Baranrd students can not take Columbia Core classes .
Barnard students receive diploma signed by non-Columbia officials with non-Columbia seals.
Barnard studetns can not join Columbia University Alumni Association.
.
.
.
.etc</p>

[hannahbanana94]

<p>I think some of your information is wrong, billkamix. Barnard student are allowed to dorm in Columbia dorms from sophomore year on. I think Barnard students can join the Alumni Association. I was at the Alumni tent for the Homecoming football game, and Barnard had a table right next to SEAS and CC, so I’m not sure.</p>

[churchmusicmom]

<p>Don’t get billkamix started. Of their 72 posts, I think 62 of them are on this old thread or one other on the Barnard board. Same old song and definitely some sort of ax to grind.</p>

<p>Barnard is a wonderful school and Barnard students enjoy being students within the Columbia University community. I know my daughter did and she would not trade her Barnard education for any other undergrad experience. Including being a CC or SEAS student.</p>

[calmom]

<p>hannah…ditto to churchmusicmom, ignore billkamix, who is an obvious ■■■■■.</p>

<p>As to your own information. After first year, Barnard students can be in Columbia housing as part of groups for suites; and in some cases may be part of Columbia special interest communities. The reverse is true as well – Columbia students can come into Barnard housing the same way – in fact, the schools have an agreement that the number is capped so as to constitute an equal exchange - that is, the number of Columbia students living in Barnard housing will be equal to the number of Barnard students living in Columbia housing. </p>

<p>As to the alumni association – I contacted them and asked. All graduates of all schools, including Barnard, are automatically members of the Columbia Alumni Association, which has no dues and no formal requirements to apply for membership. However, the Columbia Alumni Association maintains a separate database from the Barnard Alumni association, so Barnard graduates do not have access to the Columbia online database & would not be listed there. But they definitely are members and are entitled to whatever discrete benefits may be available to members - I had asked because I was concerned about health insurance for my daughter after she graduated and was looking at the possibility of group benefits - I had asked the Barnard Alumni Association and they told me to get in touch with Columbia Alumni Association, so I did. (They didn’t have a group plan for basic health insurance in any case, but they did have other types of insurance – the health insurance issue became moot as my daughter ended up getting a job with great benefits right away after she graduated.) </p>

<p>Also, FWIW, my daughter’s diploma bears the seal of Columbia University and the signature of Columbia President Lee Bollinger. (bottom left).</p>

[billkamix]

<p>

Barnard students can be in Columbia housing as part of groups for suites;

Yes. Barnard student can not be at a single room at Columbia dorm but
requires permission from CC/SEAS student to be at group suite housing. In fact, 1-2 Barnard student per year are doing this. CC/SEAS students can live at any room they wishes.</p>

<p>Barnard students an join some of Columbia U alumni activities. Many Alumni activiies are for Columbia U only. </p>

<p>

Also, FWIW, my daughter’s diploma bears the seal of Columbia University and the signature of Columbia President Lee Bollinger. (bottom left)

</p>

<p>Please don’t forget that Barnard diploma carries one more seal, Baranrd seal, which is not a Columbia seal. AND signature from Barnard president. </p>

<p>Barnard diploma requires signature from non-Columbia President and non-Columbia Seal.
Sorry. but your daughter’s diploma is NOT an official FULL columbia diploma. </p>

<p>CC/SEAS diploma bears signature from only Columbia President and does not require signature from president of other University. CC/SEAS diploma carries Columbia Seal only and does need seal from other university.</p>

[churchmusicmom]

<p>In a different thread on this board, someone was asking about the Columbia Neuroscience major. Since my daughter majored in Neuroscience, I jumped in. I wanted to see for myself what Columbia College offers their neuroscience undergrads in the way of curriculum, so I did a search for “Columbia Neuroscience” and under Columbia University Neuroscience was this page:
[Columbia</a> Neuroscience](<a href=“Neuroscience | Vagelos College of Physicians and Surgeons”>Neuroscience | Vagelos College of Physicians and Surgeons)</p>

<p>Note the two programs listed as being offered by Columbia University for Neuroscience Undergrads are the one at CC and the one offered at Barnard.</p>

[billkamix]

<p>Harvard Law school offers program for Tufts University student in ‘Law and Diplomacy’ program. Tufts students can take many courses at Harvard Law school, but the degrees is awarded by Tufts university. </p>

<p>Harvard medical school also offer program (Health Sciences & Tech) for MIT students, who receive degree from MIT (not from Harvard Medical School).</p>

<p>Columbia may also offer programs (e.g. Neuroscience) for other schools including barnard, julliard etc. However, Barnard students won’t get full columbia degree.</p>

[eternaltorture]

<p>I am applying to Barnard this year and I also do not think Barnard = Columbia.</p>

<p>Sure, it’s ok if you list it as Barnard College, Columbia University in resumes/papers since you are taking classes in Columbia but I don’t think it is ok to verbally say you go to Columbia when you were admitted into Barnard. </p>

<p>Some members brought up a good point about directions/etc and how no one really knows Barnard so it’s easier to say that one goes to Columbia U instead of Barnard C.
But if I was asked where it is, I would say:
“The College across the street from Columbia University.”
Assuming everybody knows where Columbia U is, then it’s self explanatory where Barnard C is when you say “across the street.” And you can add in “affiliated with Columbia U” if you feel the need to.</p>

[calmom]

<p>You might feel differently after you actually spend time on campus. I think hellojan said it best in post #706 above: Everybody, CC/SEAS/GS/BC, eat together, run clubs together, play sports together, socialize together, and often take classes together. This whole identity crisis is a non-issue. </p>

<p>A Barnard student may choose to major in an area that requires the bulk of coursework to be taken at Columbia, especially during the early years (such as a foreign language taught primarily at Columbia); the student may be a participant in Div I athletics, spending the bulk of her free time training with and playing for her Ivy League team; the student may opt to join a sorority. So on the individual level, the day-to-day life might lead the student to identify strongly with her Columbia classmates and her Columbia-based activities. Again – keep in mind that for off campus activities, the student may often be in the role of representing Columbia, either through work or participation in student organizations. </p>

<p>Another student might spend all 4 years focusing only on Barnard – perhaps choosing a major in an area where Columbia doesn’t offer any courses and which requires that a lot of time be spent at Barnard (for example, a dance major) – and opting to participate in Barnard-centered activities. So that second student may feel strongly identified with Barnard – because for her, Barnard is the center of her school life, her social life, and where she spends the bulk of her time – and for her Columbia might seem a world away.</p>

<p>I realize that perceived prestige of the colleges is very important for you high school students – and it makes no sense for a high school senior who has been admitted to Barnard but not yet set foot on campus to tell her classmates that she is going to Columbia – in that context, it seems the student is trying to inflate their credentials. </p>

<p>But the whole luster of the prestige thing wears off pretty fast. When just about everyone you meet is either a student or a professor at one of the schools, it stops seeming like a big deal.</p>

<p>No one is saying that Barnard “equals” Columbia – the point is that Barnard is connected to Columbia via the affiliation agreement and day-to-day operations, and that Barnard College occupies a subordinate position in the Columbia <em>University</em> system. (Hence, if you go to the <a href=“http://www.barnard.edu%5B/url%5D”>www.barnard.edu</a> web site and scroll to the bottom of the page, you will see the printed words, Barnard College • Columbia University – and when you actually enroll, you will be issued a CUID)</p>

[stopandbelieve]

<p>Stop arguing about this, it’s fine</p>

[abercrombieindy]

<p>@hannahbanana94 I completely agree. I was even considering applying to CU ED. But in all honestly I prefer Barnard over Columbia and would rather attend Barnard. CU just seemed too vast and uninviting unlike Barnard where I felt a greater sense of community.</p>

[Polyglot]

<p>All I can say after reading through this thread is this: Poor Barnard.</p>

[Light_Airen]

<p>I’ve always believed that Columbia University and Barnard College are two completely separate institutions. </p>

<p>Now that I’ve been accepted to Columbia College (I’m a male, btw), I will defend the argument, that Barnard is not part of Columbia and is in no way near the prestige of Columbia, to the fullest extent.</p>