<p>Another huge headline on the front page of the Review section of the (London) Sunday Times. Dragon is in red and on the side is an 11 ½ high photo of Amy Chua in that tight black leather dress but this time shes wagging her finger in admonishment at the viewer. Smiling. (Any UK reader will recognize this instantly for what it is a spoof of the dominatrix …) Anyway, the sub head is Revolt in Red Square: raging Lulu casts off my iron grip the story runs to almost two pages inside and the accompanying article is headed This is parental barbarism. Again, cant link because of the paywall but what caught my eye was how aghast Chuas parents were at her parenting techniques:
My father privately urged me to let Lulu give up the violin. My mother, who was close to Lulu (they were email pen pals), told me flat out: You have to stop being so stubborn, Amy. Youre too strict with Lulu too extreme. Youre going to regret it.
Why are you turning on me now? I shot back. This is how you raised me.
You cant do what Daddy and I did, my mother replied. Things are different now. Lulus not you and shes not Sophia. She has a different personality, and you cant force her.</p>
<p>At least Waldman has written a couple of humorous books though, and the humor in the article is obvious.</p>
<p>I just don’t <em>get</em> how calling your child garbage can be funny.</p>
<p>The thing is, it’s not about the violin, or her rigidity, or her being Chinese.</p>
<p>She crosses a line in that book, it seems, from the quotes, several times. Now if those are the only times, that’s great. That’s awesome. Over all those years, losing it only that many times? I hope so. But I think what people are reacting to is the perhaps unfair WSJ piece that really strung together all those losing-it moments that regardless of your culture you are trying to avoid. And they made it seem like she was proud of those moments, like that was her style, the aggression and controlling behavior which is not normal. Assertive, not aggressive. In control, not controlling. YK?</p>
<p>Nobody would be calling it racist if a white dad wrote that he wouldn’t let his son play anything but baseball, wouldn’t let him ride his bike with the other kids, insisted he play on every league and that he go hunting and do all this stuff that was sooo important to the dad, and if the kid didn’t want to, the dad calls him garbage and threatens to throw out his toys. Makes him eat venison even though venison makes the kid gag. Tells his son he’s fat and ugly. You get the picture.</p>
<p>You see, that scenario is just messed up no matter who’s doing the abusing. Chua seems to think her scenario gets a pass because it’s “cultural” and her expectations are “high”. High by whose standards?!?</p>
<p>That’s what bugs me. It does NOT get a pass. I don’t care if you’re in Russia, Sweden, Brazil, or Kenya. Seriously. Don’t call your kids garbage. It’s really not necessary and shows a terrible lack of imagination in terms of motivating a child.</p>
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<p>Before we get too self-congratulatory about how Americans/American parents don’t do this, let’s not forget that there are similar status seeking/conformist attitudes in our own society. Granted, it is not as widespread and extreme overall. However, there are certain industries which match and even exceed the Chinese society’s obsession with academic pedigree/status such as management consulting, investment banking, etc where if you didn’t graduate from an Ivy or peer institution…you’re practically shut out. </p>
<p>A cousin who worked for BCG after graduating from HYPS confirmed it when she said a state school friend who inquired about working for BCG had no chance despite having stellar grades, great ECs, relevant internships, and graduating with high honors. None of that mattered because he didn’t attend an Ivy or one of their peer schools. </p>
<p>Moreover, there were plenty of mainstreamed Americans who also act similarly. Plenty of them were parents of non-Asian-American high school classmates. Moreover, a boomer aged supervisor knew of a few well-off White classmates/colleagues whose fathers literally ordered their sons to attend their respective HYP alma maters or risk being permanently cut off and estranged from the rest of the family.</p>
<p>how do you link the post with border and italics?</p>
<ul>
<li>Yes, heaven forbid we meet people and judge them on who they actually are.</li>
</ul>
<p>I was reading what pizzamom had to say awhile and kinda relieved that more likely I don’t have to “meet” her nor judge her on who she “actually is”.</p>
<p>and
same goes to Amy Chua. then again if I did meet her or took her class I might have liked her better. you can’t stay there if you suck at teaching, may I hope?
or would they let you off if you’d publish best sellers or award winnee like, every few years?
am I wrong to doubt that Amy needed some easy fix for her credential is fading off a bit as she ages and wrinkle sag would be hard to contain?
I am not saying as so far as Michiko Kakutani or Lucy Liu (charlies angel) token hire that she was but there always speculation.
every thing has both sides and ends. you really never now.</p>
<p>The CC kids’ perspective. Anyone remember this thread from years ago:</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/high-school-life/124176-gotta-love-asian-parents.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/high-school-life/124176-gotta-love-asian-parents.html</a></p>
<p>From post #40 in that thread:</p>
<p>“Super Elite colleges receive thousands upon thousands of apps from the “stereotypical asian” applicants with the same exact EC’s: math, math, classical music, orchestra, violin, piano, math club, no athletics, no “unique” activities. They will definately have the highest chance of being rejected and when they do, they don’t understand why their 1600 SAT’s didnt get them in.”</p>
<p>Sounds like Chua-style parenting was recognized as limiting back in 2005 too.</p>
<p>I feel bad for the child who did not succeed . . . but what can you expect when children become the slaves of their parents?</p>
<p>From personal experience, I can say that when the motivation is internal, and not external, one will be able to work to one’s potential. The activities that I wanted to do well in are the ones that I excel in. Children should be free to discover their own interests; parents have no right to live vicariously through their children because the children are distinct autonomous beings.</p>
<p>As a kindergarten teacher many years ago , I remember a smart young Asian boy who did everything well ,until we would have some "free time " .He could not enjoy himself ,and play with the others .He would sit ,and practice writing his numbers as high as he could .He never socialized ; I guess that was a “waste of time” .I wonder what he is doing now !</p>
<p>“Before we get too self-congratulatory about how Americans/American parents don’t do this, let’s not forget that there are similar status seeking/conformist attitudes in our own society. Granted, it is not as widespread and extreme overall. However, there are certain industries which match and even exceed the Chinese society’s obsession with academic pedigree/status such as management consulting, investment banking, etc where if you didn’t graduate from an Ivy or peer institution…you’re practically shut out.”</p>
<p>Those professions don’t loom any where near as large in real life as they do on cc. They are minute in size.</p>
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</p>
<p>I was curious about this statement so I looked at BCG’s website, and they do in fact do on-campus recruiting at state schools UCLA and UMichigan. I didn’t search any further than those two, but you can do it yourself here:</p>
<p>[BCG</a> - Learn about events, application procedures, and recruiting teams on campus](<a href=“http://www.bcg.com/join_bcg/oncampus/default.aspx]BCG”>http://www.bcg.com/join_bcg/oncampus/default.aspx)</p>
<p>Re post 573:</p>
<p>Okay, so my example of Russian gymnasts was a bad one, but I was just trying to say that most people know that if you take pretty much any child and train them at something hard enough and long enough while they are growing up, they will be incredibly accomplished at that thing by the time they are adults. My point being, that merely forcing your child to play the piano, violin or tennis everyday for years on end does not prove that those children are people who want to accomplish anything in life.</p>
<p>You know, I’m very proud of my bright, talented, Western-raised, shared-responsibility-for-decision-making daughters too. The main difference between my values and Ms. Chua’s is that I don’t feel the need to bolster my self-esteem by publicly shouting “My kids turned out better than your kids - I WIN! I WIN! I WIN!”</p>
<p>gadad, it’s a cultural difference. Many Chinese people have that mindset.</p>
<p>Please remember that Amy Chua never proclaimed to writing a parenting guide. She’s writing a MEMOIR. She also has made it clear in interviews that she did not choose the title of the article, the entire original article is in fact a variety of passages not connected to each other in the book spliced together – some tasteless WSJ editor looking for sensationalism did all of that.</p>
<p>That being said, this entire ‘omg, that’s child abuse,’ ‘she’s so horrible how could she raise well rounded kids’ argument is also silly. I am 21, Asian American and grew up in a very similar household where my parents’ hardass ways were definitely the key to my reaching as much of my potential as I could. If my parents never pushed me, I would have done jack **** (I’ve definitely had glimpses of what this could be like when I went to things like CTD and CTY), but ultimately years and years of working hard at everything just kinda became absorbed into my own personality so that I’m pretty good about being proactive and trying to be awesome at everything I do even without them watching over me.</p>
<p>Yes, my parents spanked me, made me practice piano forever, demanded As, wouldn’t let me stay out as long as other kids did, and I had a nickname that literally translates to ‘fat fat’. I think that a lot gets lost in translation. It seems that people read these things in english and think they sound really horrible – in context of what my parents said to be in Chinese, nicknames like ‘fat fat’ (and I was chubby and still am) were said in more of a loving way. I could see how this method would have had a different effect had I not constantly felt loved by my parents (even while they made me do homework). I figured out at some point early on that my parents pushed me because they wanted more for me than they had gotten in America. </p>
<p>I grew up pretty well-adjusted (despite not having sleepovers – the horror!), have friends, love school and love life in general despite, or I would actually say because of this style of parenting. It made me acutely aware of how I was NOT an average American kid and I’m better for it. I’m proud that my parents went through a ton of crap to raise me to be as good I could be. In no way am I condoning what all of Amy Chua is saying, I just think it’s unfair to keep nitpicking and bashing without realizing that some of her parenting methods DO have some advantages. aand just to conclude, I completely adore my parents.</p>
<p>That was a nice post, IAmNobody, although I must say that when I first saw your screen name I immediately felt sorry for you and expected something completely different - like a person with no self-esteem or sense of self-worth!</p>
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<p>That’s interesting to know. I recall that a year or so ago, a relatively new CC poster who had emigrated to the U.S. from Asia asked “Would Princeton be the best college for my child to attend in order to hobnob with snobs?” Some initial responses suggested that due to a language barrier, the poster clearly didn’t understand that “snob” was a pejorative term and that the concept of overtly using the social standing of peers to elevate the perception of one’s own standing would be met with disapproval in this country. The poster’s responses made it clear that that was exactly what she was seeking. She was subsequently brutalized in the thread to the extent that she apparently withdrew from it and never posted - at least, under that username - on CC again. I felt badly for the poster and felt at the time that we could have been more understanding and less reactionary toward her differing cultural norms.</p>
<p>If Amy Chua was a recent immigrant to the U.S., I’d feel the same way about the bashing that she’s currently getting, but she was born and raised in the States. (And besides, she’ll probably make a fortune off of that bashing on the lecture circuit.)</p>
<p>It’s clear that both this kind of ‘extreme’ parenting and ‘much less extreme’ parenting can produce kids who are academically and extracurricularly successful.</p>
<p>And it’s clear that both this kind of ‘extreme’ Asian parenting, as well as ‘extreme’ American parenting, can have some serious consequences on how a child later adjusts to the adult world (problems with self-worth for the former, problems with entitlement and work ethic for the latter).</p>
<p>On the other hand, one important take-away message from her experience is that there are some kids who will simply not perform as the parent expects, no matter how many threats, bribes, punishments, or over-the-top behaviors the parents get involved in or how much cajoling, screaming, and conflict goes on.</p>
<p>This is true even if it is clear that the child can perform as the parent expects.</p>
<p>So for some kids, it’s not doing their homework and handing it in, or keeping their room clean. For other kids, it’s not practicing the violin for X many hours a night. </p>
<p>Parenting a very strong-willed, bright teenager is probably the most humbling experience for a parent. I know from experience. Even if the expectations and consequences seem reasonable to most, these kids don’t view it that way, and there are battles. </p>
<p>But even someone who has the most incredible expectations, as Chua does, and could stick to her guns, had to back off. The amount of conflict simply became unbearable.</p>
<p>So at least her experience makes me realize that even the best of them have to back down, and so I don’t have to feel so bad.</p>
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<p>There are a few state schools with excellent academic reputations that many people consider to be more-or-less peer schools with the lower Ivies and their equivalents. These state schools are not considered to be at the same level as Harvard or Yale, but they are competitive with Dartmouth, Cornell, Georgetown, Wash U, Northwestern, and other schools at that level. UCLA and Michigan are among them, along with UC Berkeley, UVa, UNC-Chapel Hill, and perhaps one or two others.</p>
<p>I’m a junior in high school. I have been largely devoid of this type of mentality in the form of my parents - neither one comes from a Chinese/East-Asian culture, and that point aside, I was always given academic and extracurricular freedom.</p>
<p>I don’t think Amy Chua is a monster. I think many Americans are unfamiliar with the radically different parenting model of Chinese parents (and others like them). It’s not a horrendous thing to raise your kids strictly - now, “strictly” not to the point of Chua, she is a bit extreme, even for the Chinese.</p>
<p>I see two types of kids, and I see one group benefitting from Chinese parenting, and the other group having their lives ruined by it.</p>
<p>The first type of kid is the one who doesn’t know what he wants. The one who won’t do his homework or study independently or care about anything at all except shallow things, unless he is told to do so. The kid who would contribute nothing to humanity if he wasn’t forced to work hard, and very hard at that, to excel in one or more skills, careers, etc.</p>
<p>The second type of kid is the free thinker. The one who doesn’t need to be told to study his subjects or play a musical instrument or do any other extracurricular activity for that matter. The one who is an end-in-himself - who enjoys life and its activities not because he or she savors the praise of others or monetary compensation, but who does everything out of genuine enjoyment.</p>
<p>The first kid needs the Chinese parenting model if he or she wants to reach their absolute, fullest potential. They have to have their activities enforced strictly upon them, with tight parameters. They not only want, but need, to be told what to do.</p>
<p>However, the group of kids who fit in the second category are doomed to a life of unhappiness if they are subject to the Chinese parenting model. Kids like this (I consider myself one of them) are self-motivated individuals who just enjoy life and the activities that they pursue not out of obligation, but out of free choice. Perhaps I’m being vague; I’ll be more specific. I have a Chinese friend with parents similar to Amy Chua, though probably not as extreme. She’s a really nice girl, really down to earth. But she is very unhappy. I can see it on her face. Her parents force her to practice piano when she wants to be in theater; they force her to load up on math courses when she’d rather take history; they assume that they know what she wants, and as a result, her soul which longs to be free is tainted. People in the second group, like my Chinese friend here, are ill-fitted for the Chinese parenting model, and in fact may be significantly more hurt by it than helped.</p>
<p>
This is an easy rationalization to make. However, I can already see one fundamental flaw: “I consider myself one of them”. Tell me, what proportion of kids do you think see themselves as shallow and in need of strong parental direction? It is very easy to say that others need to behave in a certain way; just not, of course, yourself.</p>
<p>If we’re talking about “traditions” and abiding about parental values, i’m pretty sure Amy Chou’s parents and chinese culture would not see Amy’s marriage with a jewish man as “traditional”…im more than sure that this was probably an act of rebeling from her…so, isnt is hypocritical that she bashes western values and personal freedom to an extent when she utalizes it herself?</p>