<p>Wasn’t trying to say it excuses it, only that it explains it, roughly. The dying of thirst example is not a valid analogy, however. Advisory fees are paltry compared to the wealth of large companies. The promotion of dishonesty comment is wrong (in IBD). Other elements of the financial industry are far more broken than IBD senior banker compensation.</p>
<p>
Unfortunately, you are no authority on this subject Alexandre so your statement is nothing more than another controversial opinion. So Michigan should be ranked higher than Rice, Vanderbilt, Georgetown, CMU and Notre Dame? You might find some supporters for you claim but there will be exponentially more people who disagree with you because the quality of the undergraduate education that one receives at Vanderbilt and Rice is actually a lot higher than their rankings suggest IMHO. I had a much harder time letting go of Rice than even the prestigious Columbia of Ivy fame during my college selection process because of the unique combination of high-powered research opportunities combined with an extremely intimate classroom environment.</p>
<p>
You are a consultant Alexandre, not a guru on higher education. You don’t carry a PhD, so please for the love of god please stop pretending to be more all-knowing than Robert Morse. No sane individual would rank Michigan as the 6th best undergraduate school in the country.</p>
<p>These are the top 15 schools in the country…</p>
<ol>
<li>Harvard</li>
<li>Yale</li>
<li>Princeton</li>
<li>Stanford</li>
<li>MIT</li>
<li>Caltech</li>
<li>Columbia</li>
<li>Dartmouth</li>
<li>Duke</li>
<li>Penn</li>
<li>Brown</li>
<li>Cornell</li>
<li>Chicago</li>
<li>Northwestern</li>
<li>JHU</li>
</ol>
<p>These are the undisputed best 15 schools in the country. HYPSM is Tier 1 and the rest of the schools belong in the next tier. Find one school above that you could possibly replace with Michigan. I dare you…</p>
<p>
Of course, lets trust experts like Clemson’s and FSU’s Presidents who give their schools PAs of 5 and schools like Duke or Dartmouth PAs of 2. Not all university presidents are equally knowledgeable and the ones that are still don’t know the teaching reputation of the roster of faculties at hundreds of universities nationwide to make fine sort of judgment that the PA measures.</p>
<p>It’s easy why you would rely on expert testimony and department rankings to value a school; Michigan lags the elite privates by a mile in every true measure of undergraduate education. But hey, however you can cover that up with the strength of the grad programs…</p>
<p>
Not all of them are my friends; most of them are acquaintances. Its much easier to connect with people and know about their future ambitions now than in 1992, when you went to Michigan undergrad, because of the advent of social media. You don’t need to be good friends with someone to know his/her name and postgraduate plans. Its an extremely common topic of discussion among university students. In fact, I even know what some strangers are doing after school because mutual friends tell me that “blah blah is working at Goldman Sachs” or “blah blah is working at McKinsey”. </p>
<p>
I’ve lived in 5 different countries and traveled to over 30 others. My dad is a corporate lawyer and my mom’s on the executive board of a large healthcare complex. I know students at every school in America under the sun. I have plenty of perspective and knowledge from which to draw valuable insights from.</p>
<p>You live in Dubai and think you know the differences between the current undergraduate environments at places like Brown, Dartmouth and Duke that you have no affiliation to.</p>
<p>I probably know more than half of the university presidents in this country. In addition to being leaders of not well-respected schools, they are basing their assessments on their knowledge of the graduate programs of these schools from decades back.</p>
<p>
Congratulations, you know more than a 22-year old. You don’t know more than my dad(Harvard Law) and other educated people who have graduated from HYPSM who told me not to even consider Michigan after I got into places like Columbia and Duke.</p>
<p>
Academic strength, which the PA doesn’t exactly measure well, isn’t the only factor that measures the quality of undergraduate education and reputation. Class sizes, strength of student body, selectivity, financial resources per capita, etc. all play a role as well. I would agree that Michigan is better than BU and Syracuse just like I think that Columbia and Dartmouth are better than Michigan.</p>
<p>
I just used that as an example but Caltech is a better school than Michigan. I hope you realize that. So, Michigan could not possibly be a candidate for the #6 school in the country.</p>
<p>
I’m glad you’re so proud of Michigan. If you could channel your energy to getting Mary Sue’s administration to improve the quality of the undergraduate experience at Michigan by stopping the annual increase of class sizes and by providing students with actual career services and professors who can speak English, then your time would be better spent. Arguing with students/alums of superior schools about how Michigan’s just as academically strong isn’t going to help the undergraduate climate at the school.</p>
<p>
I disagree but I won’t waste more of my time having a debate with you on this matter. You clearly have your own opinion and I respect your right to have that.</p>
<p>
You take loyalty way too far and can’t think speak or think objectively as a result. You’re a seasoned professional now and should have more important things to concern yourself with than the reputation of Michigan among young adults. It was 4 years of your life and that time is long past. It’s time to move on.</p>
<p>
Buckeyes are passionate about Ohio State and Trojans are passionate about USC. Does that make those universities as good as Harvard? Michigan is one of the best schools in the country and offers among the very best college experiences among those good schools. It just so happens that there is one school that does it all (academics, athletics, social life) a little better than Michigan: Duke. Vandy is great too but it lacks the athletic success of Michigan.</p>
<p>I know one recent Michigan grad who severely regretted his decision to attend the school over MIT and Caltech because of the weakness of the student body, so not all alumni are satisfied. No university is going to have a 100% alumni satisfaction rate.</p>
<p>LDB, you have no credibility. Anybody who claims to know 1,500 college students attending top 20 universities, even as acquaintenances, has lost all sense of perspective. </p>
<p>You also claimed that 450 Duke seniors will be joining front office jobs at IBanks or take jobs with Management Consulting firms this year.</p>
<p>It is hard to believe a person who makes such claims.</p>
<p>“It just so happens that there is one school that does it all (academics, athletics, social life) a little better than Michigan: Duke. Vandy is great too but it lacks the athletic success of Michigan.”</p>
<p>LOL! And this guy insists he is not a ■■■■■!</p>
<p>ACADEMICS:
Michigan = Duke</p>
<p>ATHLETICS:
Michigan > Duke </p>
<p>SOCIAL:
Pretty subjective don’t you think?</p>
<p>Overall, I would say Michigan > Duke. It just is a more well rounded school.</p>
<p>
Buckeyes are passionate about Ohio State and Trojans are passionate about USC. Does that make those universities as good as Harvard? Michigan is one of the best schools in the country and offers among the very best college experiences among those good schools. It just so happens that there is one school that does it all (academics, athletics, social life) a little better than Michigan: Duke. Vandy is great too but it lacks the athletic success of Michigan.</p>
<p>I know one recent Michigan grad who severely regretted his decision to attend the school over MIT and Caltech because of the weakness of the student body, so not all alumni are satisfied. No university is going to have a 100% alumni satisfaction rate.</p>
<p>
How about you go and make some friends then? Not all of the Michigan students are my “friends” but they are acquaintances. I know enough about them to know what they are up to generally. I met some through high school, but I met a lot of others through high school camps/high school sports/college trips to Ann Arbor to visit other friends. I have over 150 friends from U of M in my Facebook network for instance. There are others I am not Facebook friends with who I know.</p>
<p>
That might be a slight exaggeration, but I probably know 15%. I feel like I know the vast majority of people in Greek Life; I obviously know everyone in my frat and most of the girls like 3 of the sororities we typically mix with. I know most of the other kids in the other frats/sororities through philanthropy events/combined parties/IM sports/bar nights/etc.</p>
<p>I’m involved in a bunch of other organizations I’m involved in and meet other kids through random stuff like job info sessions/classes/Church/school-sponsored activities/etc. It’s just not that hard to meet a lot of people. Duke is a pretty small place when you consider that 25% of the schools are filled with Internationals/hardcore Asians (no offense)/really introverted white kids who never leave their dorm. The remaining 75% of the school is very social though.</p>
<p>
I was just exaggerating to make a point but I know at least a couple of people at EVERY school and more than 5 at most schools like all the Ivies and Northwestern. I only know a couple of Chicago, Stanford and MIT kids though to be honest.</p>
<p>
I was the president of my high school class at one point and am the social chair of my fraternity and am heavily involved with student government in college. I also play a competitive club sport and run a student business that requires me to travel to schools all over the country.</p>
<p>I’m not delusional, just ridiculously ridiculously well connected. That’s why I’m not intimated of Alexandre and all of his “worldly” knowledge.</p>
<p>
Refer to my explanation above please.</p>
<p>
It’s certainly not out of the question. MBB hiring just finished up and I know that 25-30 Duke seniors will be working for the Boston Consulting Group, Bain & Company and McKinsey alone. This isn’t even scratching the surface because nearly every reputable consulting firm besides Booz recruits heavily at Duke including Deloitte, Accenture, Parthenon, LEK, Brattle Group, Analysis Group, Cornerstone Research, IBM, NERA, Bates White, Putnam Associates, PWC, etc. etc. etc. Beyond the major ones, there are tons of regional consulting firms that recruit Duke undergrads. Lots of technology companies have consulting positions as well so in all, I would be surprised if 100 Duke seniors at least don’t get consulting jobs.</p>
<p>With regards to my 300 figure for banking, I’m actually referring to the number of seniors who are interested in Finance as a whole. Sorry for the misunderstanding there. If you consider all the different divisions that one can work in like IB, S&T, Asset Management, Research, Private Wealth Management, etc. along with typical Finance roles offered by firms like Capital One and Cisco, then I don’t think my 300 figure is far off.</p>
<p>Duke was the 2nd most represented firm at Goldman Sachs this summer and had at least 12 individuals off the top of my head who did front office positions just there in New York, London and Hong Kong. Duke was also the most represented school at RBS this summer (Michigan was 2nd along with Yale so not too shabby there) as well.</p>
<p>I know some friends doing Raymond James in Florida and Lazard in Charlotte so not everything is in New York either. There are dozens of regional boutiques that recruit heavily at Duke as well.</p>
<p>The advantage that Wharton and Harvard have over Duke is their placement of undegrads directly into prestigious buy side positions at places like Bain Capital, Citadel and Apollo. The only PE firm that recruits Duke undergrads is Audax, a middle market firm. If we’re talking about placement intro traditional analyst roles at banks overall, Duke is on par with Harvard and Wharton.</p>
<p>
Correct, but QUALITY OF UNDERGRADUATE EDUCATION: Duke>>>>>Michigan</p>
<p>
Duke has CURRENT national championship teams in 2 of college’s 5 most important sports, Basketball and Lacrosse. Michigan is about to miss a bowl game this year for the 3rd time in a row.</p>
<p>Duke is #10 in the Director’s Cup and Michigan is #25. What makes this even more astounding is that Michigan has more D1 teams than Duke so it has more opportunities to shine in various sports.</p>
<p>
Duke has better weather, a more beautiful campus and laxer alcohol policies than state schools like Michigan. Some things are definitely measurable.</p>
<p>Ann Arbor is a classic college town with great chain restaurants and shops but it has no fine dining or upscale retail. I can go to Chapel Hill and get everything that Ann Arbor has plus slightly better restaurants.</p>
<p>In fact, I’m going to be celebrating Halloween on Franklin Street tomorrow in one of the country’s biggest Halloween celebrations.</p>
<p>
Michigan is the 4th most well-rounded school in the country. Duke, Stanford and possibly Vanderbilt have it beat IMHO. Vandy is one of the few schools that has a gorgeous campus and an incredible surrounding area (Nashville), awesome weather, SEC sports, top notch academics, beautiful girls, etc. etc.</p>
<p>
Now I’m really impressed…</p>
<p>I have to look it up… “According to UNESCO the US has the second largest number of higher education institutions in the world, with a total of 5,758, an average of more than 115 per state.” (source: wikipedia)</p>
<p>So you “know” more than 2,879 university presidents, wow!</p>
<p>Lesdiablesbleus, you seem to be referring to the US News and World Report ranking when talking about how Michigan is lower-ranked than schools like JHU, Dartmouth, and Georgetown, which I’m not denying. However, even if you personally think that the undergraduate teaching at UMich is signficantly weaker than its peer schools, this other US News ranking disputes your claim:</p>
<p>[Best</a> Colleges - Education - US News](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-ut-rank]Best”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-ut-rank)</p>
<p>I know it’s only one ranking, but since it’s one that you seem to cite regularly when talking about Michigan, I thought you would have put a little more stock into it.</p>
<p>“ACADEMICS:
Michigan = Duke”</p>
<p>I would dispute this as well:</p>
<p>[ARWU</a> 2010](<a href=“http://www.arwu.org/ARWU2010.jsp]ARWU”>http://www.arwu.org/ARWU2010.jsp)
[Times</a> Higher Education - World University Rankings, education news and university jobs](<a href=“http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/]Times”>http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/)
<a href=“http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/rankings_2010/national_university_rank.php[/url]”>http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/rankings_2010/national_university_rank.php</a></p>
<p>only USNWR sees them as equals:</p>
<p>[World’s</a> Best Universities: Top 400 - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/worlds-best-universities/2010/09/21/worlds-best-universities-top-400-.html]World’s”>http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/worlds-best-universities/2010/09/21/worlds-best-universities-top-400-.html)</p>
<p>Granted the rankings differences are relatively small. Michigan however, shows no sign of departmental weakness. The same cannot be said for Duke.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I would. If the MBB number is accurate, those other firms will not scoop up an additional 70-75 kids.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>AM, PWM, and Corp. Fin. are not on the same level. 300 number is still too high, as well, even considering those.</p>
<p>^AM is not necessarily not on the same level, in fact AM could be well above IBD and S&T.</p>
<p>For instance, a Blackrock PMG (the true portfolio management arm, NOT PAG (portfolio analytics group), make no mistake) position would be much much harder to land and a much rarer opportunity than GS IBD/S&T at the undergrad level. So are front office positions at hedge funds like DE Shaw (lol stinking it up now), Citadel, Bridgewater. They all fall under the AM category. Those positions are much harder to land than the conventional BB front office position. If you are lucky enough to land a true buyside opportunity at a top money manager (> 200B AUM) or a reputable hedge fund (>10B AUM) out of undergrad, you should probably take it. It’s the end game for most people on the sell side, and tend to pay better (I accepted an offer at one of these lowly AM firms after two internships in BB S&T so I know the pay package and career path for both top AM and S&T first hand)</p>
<p>^Valid, but those positions are not typically thought of as under the AM umbrella. Most people think of BB AM.</p>
<p>Should have said earlier as well, but those consulting firms you listed, LDB, are far from MBB level (despite being the next tier). Not nearly as difficult to get. I’m also a bit skeptical about that 25-30 quote.</p>
<p>^Well what would they fall under if not AM? They are by definition asset management (hence the term asset under management)</p>
<p>anyway BB AM is not necessarily worse than S&T either. GS’ Alpha fund or quant strategy group under the AM arm are some of the most exclusive groups on the street (obviously going forward they will probably be divested with the finreg and all)</p>
<p>more like some of the consulting firms he mentioned arent under the management consulting category. NERA, AG, Cornerstone and Brattle are economic consulting firms which mainly do litigation support and provide analysis for expert witnesses in court. I interviewed and received an offer from one of them. Absolutely top notch people but completely different from strat/management consulting and they make sure their interviewees are aware of that throughout the entire interview process</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Yes I agree, with those types. Certainly NERA, AG and Cornerstone- not familiar with Brattle.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This is true for some particulars, but they hire a fraction of the amount of undergrads and therefore will not account for many kids’ placement in any given year.</p>
<p>
Deloitte and Accenture recruit heavily at Duke as well and pick up 5-10 analysts a piece each year so you have 40-50 kids right there just for MBB, Accenture and Deloitte. There are about 25-30 other small to major consulting firms that recruit on my campus in my estimation and they’ll probably pick up at least 1 senior. In addition, there are lots of tech companies that have in-house consulting roles as well so factoring all of this in, I don’t think the 100 number for consulting is too far off.</p>
<p>
You might want to do a little more research on that. For Asset Management, Blackrock and GAMCO are pretty good for instance. Also, I would consider some Corp. Dev./Fin. programs to be above banking positions in terms of difficulty to acquire and prestige.</p>
<p>Visa is a good example. They only take 8 kids nationwide.
[Undergraduates</a> ? Visa Corporate](<a href=“http://corporate.visa.com/careers/campus-recruiting/undergraduates.shtml]Undergraduates”>http://corporate.visa.com/careers/campus-recruiting/undergraduates.shtml)
[College</a> Campus Events ? Visa Corporate](<a href=“http://corporate.visa.com/careers/campus-recruiting/campus-events.shtml]College”>http://corporate.visa.com/careers/campus-recruiting/campus-events.shtml)</p>
<p>
I think I’m actually being a little generous with my estimate. I know that GS (10+ just interns), MS, JPM (5+ just interns) RBC, RBS (10+ just interns), BAML (10+ just interns), Wells Fargo and Deutsche Bank pick up 10+ seniors at Duke yearly from their SAs and new analyst hires. For RBS, Goldman, MS and BAML, that number is probably 15+ to be honest for all divisions (IBD, S&T, Research, Asset Management) everywhere (New York, London, Hong Kong). We’re talking about possibly 80-100 kids right here.</p>
<p>Barclays might take take about 5 and you might get another 0-5 from Citi/Credit Suisse which don’t do OCR but students do often get through non-OCR and relationship hires. Then, there are international banks like BNP Paribas and Macquarie that will pull another 5 more. This is not to mention the many elite boutiques like Allen & Company, Moelis, Jeffries, Lazard, etc. that will grab another 5-10.</p>
<p>Then, last but definitely not least, you have a ton of regional southern banks that you have probably never heard of like Sagent, McColl, Shattuck Hammond, Raymond James, etc. that cumulatively take a lot (like 20+ when you consider that there a bunch of these). These aren’t necessarily great IBD positions but at this point you’re moving into kids who are in the middle of their class at Duke (GPAs of 3.0-3.3) who are interested in banking so these are not bad opportunities at all.</p>
<p>I’m too lazy to speculate about how many other companies with Finance positions will hire seniors when’s all said and done but we’ve already covered somewhere between 150-200 kids with my current analysis. When you consider the multitude of companies in virtually every industry that offer Finance positions like Capital One, GEICO, Cisco, Exxon Mobil, Visa, etc. etc., it’s not far fetched to predict that another 100 Duke seniors will take on one of these kinds of roles.</p>
<p>
MBB hiring just wrapped up and I personally know for a fact that at least 10 kids got fulltime offers from Bain, another 10-15 to BCG and unknown amount to McKinsey (I know at least 4 personally though). I think the 30 figure is probably spot on or every close.</p>
<p>Duke is a much smaller place than Michigan and its like a high school, which makes it pretty easy to gather this kind of information and keep tabs on fellow classmates.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Right you are. You’re too smart to go to Michigan, though you probably already knew that.</p>
<p>Lesdiablesbleus, if your numbers are true, how do deny that Duke is not extremely preprofessional? You are saying that 400+ Duke students join IBanks and Management Consulting firms. It is safe to say that another 400 or so go to Law School or Medical School. That’s already well over 50% of Duke’s graduating class. That’s not including students who apply but are not admitted. Or does Duke have a 100% placement rate into Medical School, Law school, IBanks and Management Consulting? This said, I seriously doubt that anywhere near 300 Duke students get front office jobs at IBanks. I doubt it is more than 150. </p>
<p>“I’m also a bit skeptical about that 25-30 quote.”</p>
<p>Actually Giants, 25-30 undergrads joining McKinsey, Bain and BCG combined for a school like Duke sounds about right. Ross alone sends 10 students to those three firms annually. Engineering and LSA combined send another 10 or so. That’s 20 from Michigan, and Michigan is not nearly as pre-professional as Duke, even on an absolute scale. I would estimate that half of Duke undergrads are about as preprofessional as Ross. I would be shocked if more than 250 students from Michigan applied for Management Consulting jobs on any given year. From Duke, that number would be closer to 350. But Michigan and Duke students are equally sought after, and recruitment activity on those two campuses is equally heavy. As such, I seriously doubt LDBs overall figures. They seem seriously inflated. And since Duke does not publish a report, there is no way of verifying his claims. At the same time, if his figures were anywhere close to the truth, Duke would definitely publish the placement figures as they would be a HUGE draw for prospective students. Heck, if his figures are accurate, Duke would be significantly superior to Wharton, which places only 220 or so students at IBanks and another 80 or so students into Management Consulting firms annually. And let us be honest, it is pretty easy for a career office to keep track of placement figures.</p>
<p>“Right you are. You’re too smart to go to Michigan, though you probably already knew that.”</p>
<p>As always, very classy LDB. You have to love the elitism. You genuinely believe that some people are too good for Michigan. Like I said, I hope your sister does not end up at Michigan. You will actually think her inferior to you for having gone there.</p>
<p>
400 Duke students do not join investment banks and management consulting firms, but rather 400 Duke grads each year typically end up in Finance or Consulting in general. There is a key difference here. If you read my post carefully, you would realize that I mentioned explicitly that a number of seniors end up in typical Finance roles at large corporations or front office positions at regional banks and analyst roles in technology/economic/litigation consultancies.</p>
<p>If we are talking just purely IBanks and management consulting firms, then the number is probably half of that. Either way, it is far better than Michigan.</p>
<p>
You are dead wrong with your analysis here Alexandre. Michigan is much more pre-professional than Duke. IT HAS AN ACTUAL UNDERGRADUATE BUSINESS SCHOOL first of all. Also, you assume that almost everyone who is interested in banking and consulting resides in Ross. In fact, there are hundreds upon hundreds of students in LSA and Engineering who are interested in Investment Banking and Management Consulting but were not admitted to Ross. Many of these students probably applied and didn’t get first round interviews at these firms or DIDN’T BOTHER APPLYING in the first place because they knew they had no shot. The last part of my statement is key because you seem to assume everyone who is interested in these opportunities actually tosses their hat in the ring.</p>
<p>A far better way of evaluating the strength of the relationship between the school and a particular firm is the number of interview slots the company allots for that university. BCG, for instance, had about 150 first round interview spots for Duke students. That number is simply mind boggling. That means that BCG allocated their human resource efforts in a manner that enabled them to interview 9-10% OF THE ENTIRE DUKE STUDENT BODY.</p>
<p>
Once again, you myopically focus specifically on the number of students in attaining a job in particular and ignore the confounding factors of the education/sophistication it takes to hear about such opportunities and the courage it takes to ACTUALLY APPLY in the first place. Overall, I would say that there are at least 1,500 Michigan undergrads interested in getting jobs in the business world (not engineering). There has to be at least this many; I mean Michigan has well over 6,500 undergrads and I’m assuming some of these individuals want to get jobs, unless they all go to law or med school or something. The vast majority of those interested in the business world have no shot at cracking Wall Street, management consultancies, prop trading firms, corporate development programs, etc. etc. so they don’t even bother trying.</p>
<p>On the same token, there are at most like 500 students at Duke interested in joining the business world. The caveat is the success rate of the students WHO SEEK TO acquire jobs at Duke and other private schools is much higher than at Michigan due to the presence of more opportunities and better career services at the privates that enable their student body to be AWARE of these opportunities.</p>
<p>Let’s put it this way: how many seniors at Chico State apply for investment banking positions? Probably only a handful if any. Obviously the number at Dartmouth or Duke or whatever is much, much higher but thats because they have actually heard that these opportunities exist through career counselors/on campus recruiting/professors/info sessions that these Chico State students don’t even have access to, let alone pursue. The same applies to a Michigan to obviously a smaller extent. LSA and Engineering kids think they have no shot at these companies or are simply unaware so they don’t even consider them.</p>
<p>Also, there is no way Duke is more pre-professional than Michigan on an absolute basis. Michigan must have well over 500 students interested in investment banking, trading or consulting in general. There’s no way that in a student body of over 6,500 people, there aren’t well over 500 students interested in three of the more lucrative fields that are available to recent college grads, especially coming from a top state school like Michigan.</p>
<p>Alex, no matter how you slice or dice the data, Michigan isn’t really comparable to the elite private schools in any way: job placement, graduate school placement or fellowship placement.</p>
<p>PHD PRODUCTION
[nsf.gov</a> - SRS Baccalaureate Origins of S&E Doctorate Recipients - US National Science Foundation (NSF)](<a href=“http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf08311/]nsf.gov”>http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf08311/)
Duke is #30 on the list that measures the per capita production of doctoral recipients from the years 1997-2006. Michigan doesn’t even make the top 50, even though you claim its less “pre-professional” and more “academic”.</p>
<p>It is #3 with regards to the overall production of doctoral candidates but that is merely double the number that schools like Duke, Yale and Brown produce, which is not all that impressive considering that Michigan is 4 times as large as Duke and perhaps 5 times as large as Brown and Yale.</p>
<p>FELLOWSHIP PRODUCTION
Rhodes (2001-2010): <a href=“Office of the American Secretary | The Rhodes Scholarships”>http://www.rhodesscholar.org/stats/</a>
Duke: 11
Michigan: 1</p>
<p>Marshall (2001-2010): [Profiles[/url</a>]
Duke: 7
Michigan: 1</p>
<p>Truman (2001-2010): [url=<a href=“http://www.truman.gov/meet-our-scholars]Meet”>Meet Our Scholars]Meet</a> Our Scholars | <a href=“http://truman.gov%5B/url%5D”>http://truman.gov](<a href=“http://www.marshallscholarship.org/scholars/profiles/]Profiles[/url”>http://www.marshallscholarship.org/scholars/profiles/)</a>
Duke: 9
Michigan: 2</p>
<p>Goldwater (as of March 2005): [2005</a> K-State Goldwater Update](<a href=“http://www.math.ksu.edu/main/events/ksucomp/goldwater/goldwtr05.htm]2005”>http://www.math.ksu.edu/main/events/ksucomp/goldwater/goldwtr05.htm)
Duke: 54
Michigan: 41</p>
<p>The scary thing is Alex, Duke beats out Michigan on all of these fellowships ON AN ABSOLUTE BASIS even though Michigan is 4 times larger. Even for the Fullbright, where Michigan finally does better on an absolute scale for once, Duke still dominates on a per capita basis.</p>
<p>PROFESSIONAL SCHOOL PLACEMENT
<a href=“WSJ in Higher Education | Trusted News & Real-World Insights”>http://wsjclassroom.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf</a>
Duke: 8.61% (#6)
Michigan: 2.73% (#30)</p>
<p>
No private school cares about publishing such statistics. Does Harvard? Yale? Princeton? Nope. Duke is not alone in this regard. They are more concerned keeping a detailed database of their postgraduate fellowship winners, which is far more important. Michigan should rearrange their priorities.</p>
<p>
I don’t judge an individual by what school they attended. Its students that make a school prestigious anyway and not the other way around. My sister is applying ED to Penn Wharton anyway so we’ll see what happens.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Sure. But, once again, most people differentiate those shops into their own category: Hedge Funds.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Most do not consider them to be.</p>
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<p>Yea in most cases those positions definitely take a back seat if you’re interested in IB/S&T/PE/HF.</p>
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<p>This is an absurd comment.</p>
<p>“400 Duke students do not join investment banks and management consulting firms, but rather 400 Duke grads each year typically end up in Finance or Consulting in general. There is a key difference here. If you read my post carefully, you would realize that I mentioned explicitly that a number of seniors end up in typical Finance roles at large corporations or front office positions at regional banks and analyst roles in technology/economic/litigation consultancies.”</p>
<p>You keep flipping the script LDB. You clearly said that 300 would take front office jobs at IBanks and another 150 would take jobs with management consulting firms. You were clear about this. Now you are saying that only 200 Duke students join such companies? Your exact words were:</p>
<p>“Many more than 300 Duke seniors will be working in finance this year in FRONT OFFICE positions (Investment Banking, Global Capital Markets, Sales and Trading, Research, Asset Management, etc.). This is another to another 150 seniors who will be consultants for the top firms(MBB, Accenture, Deloitte, LEK, Parthenon, Advisory Board, etc.)”</p>
<p>You were pretty clear LDB. You said 450 Duke students took jobs with IBanks and Management Consulting firms.</p>
<p>“If we are talking just purely IBanks and management consulting firms, then the number is probably half of that. Either way, it is far better than Michigan.”</p>
<p>So now we are down to 200. And no LDB, 200 is not far better than Michigan. Ross alone places roughly 150 students into front office positions at IBanks and into management consulting firms. I am fairly certainly another 50+ from the CoE and LSA. That’s already 200.</p>
<p>“I don’t judge an individual by what school they attended. Its students that make a school prestigious anyway and not the other way around.”</p>
<p>Really? So WUSTL is more prestigious than Stanford? LOL! I can see how you would like to believe that, but the world does not work that way. A university is only as prestigious as its academics. Harvard is the most prestigious university in the US…but a margin. But its students are no better than students at Caltech, MIT, Princeton or Yale. WUSTL has slightly better students than Stanford. Is it more prestigious? Prestige is measured by the quality of the university, not by the students.</p>
<p>At any rate LDB, I have always said that comparing Michigan to Duke demographically is pointless since those two schools are very different. Michigan’s closest peers are Cal, Cornell, Northwestern and Penn.</p>
<p>For what it’s worth (I realize this is a thread mostly related to the financial world), I really don’t think Duke is all-around better than Michigan is. Michigan’s CS department seems mostly better; the Duke CS students I’ve met make its curriculum seem sub-par, though that could have easily just been poor luck. According to the US News rankings that I’ve seen (not sure how recent), Duke isn’t even within the top 25 for CS, while Michigan is within the top 15. Then again, I really don’t care for these rankings, because some of the schools within the top 5-10 are severely unimpressive.</p>
<p>In the end, though, both are good universities and I really don’t see the point of bitterly comparing the two in such a fashion unless one has attended both universities. Learning about a university from friends and acquaintances does not give one a valid basis for judging a university.</p>