BBA at Ross.

[lesdiablesbleus]

<p>

@Alexandre

You keep flipping the script LDB. You clearly said that 300 would take front office jobs at IBanks and another 150 would take jobs with management consulting firms. You were clear about this. Now you are saying that only 200 Duke students join such companies? Your exact words were:

</p>

<p>

@Alexandre

You were pretty clear LDB. You said 450 Duke students took jobs with IBanks and Management Consulting firms.

I said that…
"“Many more than 300 Duke seniors will be working in finance this year in FRONT OFFICE positions (Investment Banking, Global Capital Markets, Sales and Trading, Research, Asset Management, etc.). This is another to another 150 seniors who will be consultants for the top firms(MBB, Accenture, Deloitte, LEK, Parthenon, Advisory Board, etc.)”
I should have clarified that I meant proper Finance in general. I probably shouldn’t have used the term “Front Office” because it is used in reference to IBanks but I’ve been so trained to thinking in those terms that I misspoke. I would guess that 300 Duke seniors work in a respectable financial position either at a bank (Investment Banking, Sales, Trading, Global Capital Markets, Wealth Management, Research, Asset Management) or as a Data/Financial Analyst at a wide variety of corporations (Capital One, Visa, Cisco, CarMax, Bloomberg, etc.). This is not taking into account the seniors who work for some of the good ad/branding/marketing agencies like Ogilvy, Digitas and Nielsen because I am not as familiar with these areas.</p>

<p>As far as consulting, I never explicitly used the word “Management Consulting”. There are various types of consulting besides Strategy/Management like IT/Economic/Litigation and I still believe that 150 or so Duke seniors work in consulting annually. If we’re talking strictly strategy/management consulting, then the number is probably half of that.</p>

<p>

@Alexandre

So now we are down to 200. And no LDB, 200 is not far better than Michigan. Ross alone places roughly 150 students into front office positions at IBanks and into management consulting firms. I am fairly certainly another 50+ from the CoE and LSA. That’s already 200.

Ross DOES NOT place 150 students into front office positions at IBanks and management consulting firms. Ross makes NO distinction between front office (IBD and S&T), middle office (Operations) and Back Office (IT, Compliance, etc.).</p>

<p>If you attempt to claim that no Ross students work in Middle Office or Back Office, then that would be a total lie and even bearcats and giants92 would call you out on that. There are even people at private schools like Penn, Dartmouth, Duke, etc. that end up doing Operations or IT so there are definitely some at Michigan.</p>

<p>Also, lets take a look at Ross’s most recent employment report shall we.
<a href=“http://www.bus.umich.edu/pdf/EmploymentProfile2010.pdf[/url]”>http://www.bus.umich.edu/pdf/EmploymentProfile2010.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<ol>
<li>JPM: 16</li>
<li>Citi: 11</li>
<li>UBS: 6</li>
<li>Barclays: 2</li>
<li>Credit Suisse: 2</li>
<li>Deutsche: 6</li>
<li>Bank of America: 2</li>
<li>Goldman Sachs: 6</li>
<li><p>Moelis: 7
TOTAL: 58</p></li>
<li><p>BCG: 2</p></li>
<li><p>Bain: 5</p></li>
<li><p>McKinsey: 2</p></li>
<li><p>Deloitte: 3</p></li>
<li><p>Accenture: 4</p></li>
<li><p>Capgemini: 7 (Is this purely consulting?)</p></li>
<li><p>ZS Associates: 3
TOTAL: 26</p></li>
</ol>

<p>This adds up to a grand total of 84 Ross students in banking/consulting. I know that a lot of other companies in these two fields that are not listed as the “Top Employers” like the elite boutiques and other smaller consulting firms might take 1-2 BBAs so lets say 115 total. Out of this, we must subtract from the banking figure those who are not doing IBD, S&T, Research, etc.</p>

<p>There’s almost no way all of the JPM and Citi hires from Michigan are working in Front Office. That would be absurd JPM is a top 3 investment bank and I don’t think they would even hire more than 15 grads for Front Office from Wharton or Harvard.</p>

<p>I know we haven’t factored in LSA or Engineering, but at the most we’re looking at another 20-25 kids in banking or consulting, which would bring the slightly optimistic grand total for Michigan combined to 135-140. I still stand by my Duke figure of 200 so that would mean on an absolute scale, Duke is a about a 1/3 better. This seems to make intuitive sense too based on what I’ve seen and heard from friends.</p>

<p>One thing that stood out to me is the low number of MBB hires for Ross’s Class of 2010. Only 9 kids at these three firms from the 2nd best undergraduate business program in the country? It shows how prestige driven these three firms as they seemingly only recruit heavily from the top private schools.</p>

<p>

@Alexandre

Really? So WUSTL is more prestigious than Stanford? LOL! I can see how you would like to believe that, but the world does not work that way. A university is only as prestigious as its academics. Harvard is the most prestigious university in the US…but a margin. But its students are no better than students at Caltech, MIT, Princeton or Yale. WUSTL has slightly better students than Stanford. Is it more prestigious? Prestige is measured by the quality of the university, not by the students.

WUSTL doesn’t have stronger students than Stanford. You have to look a little deeper than just the entering SAT/ACT figures. Stanford has a large number of D1 sports teams to fill and that brings that statistic down for them. Also, their admissions process is much more holistic than WUSTL’s, which actively seeks out high test scorers to boost their USNWR.</p>

<p><a href=“WSJ in Higher Education | Trusted News & Real-World Insights”>http://wsjclassroom.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf&lt;/a&gt;
Stanford: #4 (181 total, 10.70%)
WUSTL: #47 (29, 1.70%)</p>

<p>I know you have a problem with the WSJ survey because of limited sample size and geographical scope but would the difference in professional school placement be this drastic if WUSTL’s student body was really equivalent to Stanford’s? They’re not on the same level.</p>

<p>I think Michigan is better than WUSTL in every way besides premed. Wash U does an excellent job of preparing and sending their students to medical school.</p>

<p>

@Alexandre

At any rate LDB, I have always said that comparing Michigan to Duke demographically is pointless since those two schools are very different. Michigan’s closest peers are Cal, Cornell, Northwestern and Penn.

Why do you say that? I find Michigan, Penn, Northwestern and Duke to be very similar. All of them are high-powered research universities with fairly balanced student bodies in terms of interests, although Penn might be the true pre-professional culprit if we had to split hairs.</p>

<p>In addition, Michigan and Duke are two of the best all-around universities with regards to academics, athletics and social life. Though, Duke has a much prettier campus and Ann Arbor is a much better college town. Also, the weather is drastically different.</p>

<p>I’m curious to hear how and why you made that grouping that way.</p>

[Alexandre]

<p>“Ross DOES NOT place 150 students into front office positions at IBanks and management consulting firms. Ross makes NO distinction between front office (IBD and S&T), middle office (Operations) and Back Office (IT, Compliance, etc.).”</p>

<p>According to the Ross Employment Profile page, 25% join Investment Banks and 9% join Strategy Consulting firms. That’s 34% of 360 graduates, which is equal to 120. This does not include another 10% that join Investment Management and Sales/Trading firms. </p>

<p>“If you attempt to claim that no Ross students work in Middle Office or Back Office, then that would be a total lie and even bearcats and giants92 would call you out on that. There are even people at private schools like Penn, Dartmouth, Duke, etc. that end up doing Operations or IT so there are definitely some at Michigan.”</p>

<p>Very few Ross students accept back office or middle office positions. As far as I have followed Michigan Business school students, I have observed that its either all or nothing. If they don’t get front office offers, they typically go for a corporate position at a company like GE, Microsoft, IBM, Google, Cisco and Intel. I agree that not 100% will take front office jobs, but the majority will. </p>

<p>“I know we haven’t factored in LSA or Engineering, but at the most we’re looking at another 20-25 kids in banking or consulting, which would bring the slightly optimistic grand total for Michigan combined to 135-140. I still stand by my Duke figure of 200 so that would mean on an absolute scale, Duke is a about a 1/3 better. This seems to make intuitive sense too based on what I’ve seen and heard from friends.”</p>

<p>20-25 total for both industries and both LSA and CoE? No way. Engineering places roughly 30-50 students into both IBanks and Strategy Consulting firms. LSA would also have about 30-50. Altogether, a conservative estimate would be 60 and a liberal estimate would be 100. Altogether, Michigan places between 170-230 students into IBanks (mostly front office) or strategy consulting firms. </p>

<p>“I know we haven’t factored in LSA or Engineering, but at the most we’re looking at another 20-25 kids in banking or consulting, which would bring the slightly optimistic grand total for Michigan combined to 135-140. I still stand by my Duke figure of 200 so that would mean on an absolute scale, Duke is a about a 1/3 better. This seems to make intuitive sense too based on what I’ve seen and heard from friends.”</p>

<p>Your numbers for Michigan are low. The 200 figure for Duke sounds about right. The number of qualified students from Duke seeking those types of jobs is roughly equal to the number of qualified students from Michigan seeking them. Like I said, when it comes to placement into IBanks and Consulting firms, Duke and Michigan are pretty even.</p>

<p>“One thing that stood out to me is the low number of MBB hires for Ross’s Class of 2010. Only 9 kids at these three firms from the 2nd best undergraduate business program in the country? It shows how prestige driven these three firms as they seemingly only recruit heavily from the top private schools.”</p>

<p>I am not so sure I understand your point. 2%-3% of Ross students join those 3 firms. Even Wharton does not place more than 5% of their students in those 3 firms. Last year, Wharton placed 27 out of almost 600 graduates in those firms. The fact is, all three of those firms recruit well at Michigan. McKinsey lists Michigan among the 10 or so strategic campuses they recruit from. If you go to the BCG New York website, you will see that a couple of their Senior partners/Manageing Directors did their undergraduate studies at Michigan. Clearly, to them, Michigan is very prestigious.</p>

<p>“WUSTL doesn’t have stronger students than Stanford. You have to look a little deeper than just the entering SAT/ACT figures. Stanford has a large number of D1 sports teams to fill and that brings that statistic down for them. Also, their admissions process is much more holistic than WUSTL’s, which actively seeks out high test scorers to boost their USNWR.”</p>

<p>That is exactly what I have always maintained LDB. The quality of a student body cannot be quantified. It is you who claims you can measure the quality of an entire student body, as if there were just a handful of metrics to determine such an unquantifiable concept.</p>

<p>“I think Michigan is better than WUSTL in every way besides premed. Wash U does an excellent job of preparing and sending their students to medical school.”</p>

<p>That’s a significant departure from your usual stand LDB. Generally, you say that Michigan is not a top 25 undergraduate institution. Now you are saying it is better than WUSTL, which would make Michigan a top 20 undergraduate institution. </p>

<p>“Why do you say that? I find Michigan, Penn, Northwestern and Duke to be very similar. All of them are high-powered research universities with fairly balanced student bodies in terms of interests, although Penn might be the true pre-professional culprit if we had to split hairs.”</p>

<p>I am not talking about institutional quality, I am referring to the nature of the school and the makeup of their student bodies. Over 20% of the students at schools like Cal, Cornell, Michigan, Northwestern or Penn major in untraditional subjects such as Agriculture, Architecture, Art, Journalism, Music Performance, Nursing, Pharmacy etc… I find Duke more similar to Brown and Dartmouth. Chicago, Columbia and Johns Hopkins form a third type of school. To me, those 11 universities can be grouped into three types of universities and represent America’s elite undergraduate research universities, not including HYPSM of course. Those three types of universities are comparable in terms of quality, but vary in campus culture and student demographics.</p>

[giants92]

<p>

@Alexandre

Very few Ross students accept back office or middle office positions.

</p>

<p>Absolutely true. Some middle, zero back.</p>

<p>

@lesdiablesbleus

There’s almost no way all of the JPM and Citi hires from Michigan are working in Front Office.

</p>

<p>I won’t claim to be 100% certain, but I actually do believe that they are, in remembering going through the jobs database this past fall.</p>

<p>

@Alexandre

LSA would also have about 30-50

</p>

<p>Alexandre, I’m not sure if you can quote something for this one, but this seems too high.</p>

[bearcats]

<p>He is right in that regards. JPM ops hired 2 that I know of. Also JPM hired at least 3 for their TSS practice, which is definitely less prestigious than IBD/S&T. JPMAM also targets Ross for sales analyst position and probably hired some from there.
Citi hired a few Ross kids for their treasury division.</p>

<p>“According to the Ross Employment Profile page, 25% join Investment Banks and 9% join Strategy Consulting firms. That’s 34% of 360 graduates, which is equal to 120. This does not include another 10% that join Investment Management and Sales/Trading firms.”</p>

<p>I have always accused Ross of misleading people. 25% joining Investment Banks doesnt mean 25% joining IBD/S&T. This 25% counts middle office/backoffice.</p>

<p>“Very few Ross students accept back office or middle office positions.”
That’s a lie. I myself know a handful that did. “Very few” is not true.</p>

<p>While I try to state the truth and try not to let Alexandre/novi run wild with their overly maize and blue agenda, I do not condone people like LDB who has no apparent connection with the university to come here and stir controversies for nothing. It is getting really pointless.</p>

[giants92]

<p>

@bearcats

This 25% counts middle office/backoffice.

</p>

<p>The MO/BO number is pretty negligible though. I honestly don’t know a person accepting that type of role and, beyond those few you quoted, there are only a couple of BBs left that even recruit here at all.</p>

[Alexandre]

<p>Bearcats, why accuse me of lying? I did not say that no Ross students accept middle and backoffice positions, I merely said that most do not. Given my exposure to the program, I stand by that.</p>

[bearcats]

<p>^ maybe it’s because we have different definitions of the term “very few”. I would be quite confident to say that conservatively 15% (and maybe up to 20%) of the Ross grads who end up at investment banks are in either risk, treasury, transaction service, finance, operations type of MO/BO position or PWM sales type of undesirable “front office” positions. I do not believe that is “very few”</p>

[Alexandre]

<p>From my experience, I would estimate it is roughly 10%.</p>

[lesdiablesbleus]

<p>

@Alexandre

According to the Ross Employment Profile page, 25% join Investment Banks and 9% join Strategy Consulting firms. That’s 34% of 360 graduates, which is equal to 120. This does not include another 10% that join Investment Management and Sales/Trading firms.

If you want to play fast and loose with the numbers Alex, so can I.</p>

<p>[Duke</a> University | Student Affairs | Career Center | Senior Exit Survey Results for Undergraduates](<a href=“Duke Student Affairs”>http://www.studentaffairs.duke.edu/career/stats)</p>

<p>So, according to the class of 2009 stats, 45% of students who responded to the Career Survey (874 students or roughly more than half of the Duke student body) said they were doing “Finance/Banking” and “Consulting”. so that would be 393 kids going into those two industries. For the remaining half of the student body, if we say that maybe another 15% do banking or consulting (a significantly less percentage but they didn’t respond to the Career Survey so perhaps they struggled to obtain the employment they were looking for, though they most likely just didn’t bother to fill it out), then that’s roughly another 120 kids.
So, without further breaking down “Finance/Banking” and “Consulting” into "IBD/S&T and “Management Consulting”, then 500+ Duke grads go into banking or consulting.</p>

<p>Even if we use the high end of the estimates you provide for Michigan’s various schools (150 for Ross, 50 for LSA, 50 for Engineering), then that still only gives us a grand total of 250 Michigan grads that do banking or consulting, which is half of the Duke number.</p>

<p>I actually haven’t looked at the Undergraduate Hiring Statistics for Duke in a while and forgot how high they are so my earlier predictions might have been too conservative. There are a few Duke seniors who do MO/BO positions at banks and less than glamorous positions as Financial Analysts at some mediocre firms and I would say those constitute about 15% of those interested in Finance overall. So, if 32% of those surveyed do banking (227 students) and another say 10% of those not surveyed do banking (80 students), then that gives us a total of 307 students. However, if we account for the 15% doing non-front office type stuff, then that gives us a grand total of about 260 Duke seniors who go into front office banking, which is pretty close to my predicted total of 300 (within margin of error anyway).</p>

<p>As far as consulting, 19% of those surveyed in the Duke Career Statistics said they were doing Consulting, which is about 166. Let’s say that another 5% of those who didn’t submit stats to the Career Survey did consulting as well (800), then that would be another 40 students who pursue consulting. That would give us a total of 206 Duke grads who go into consulting. The vast majority of consulting firms that recruit at Duke are general strat/economic/litigation/healthcare/financial/technology that are all pretty high caliber, so even if we are very conservative and assume 25% of the Duke consultant grads don’t get jobs at “good” consulting firms, then that still gives us the magic 150 consulting total figure for Duke grads I predicted earlier.</p>

<p>These estimates are higher than Wharton’s as you previously indicated Alex, but you forget that UPenn has a very highly regarded College of Arts and Sciences and School of Engineering which also receive plenty of recruitment, MUCH more than the counterparts at Michigan because of the differences in strength between the student bodies. So overall, Penn does better than Duke in Finance/Consulting because of the heavy boost that Wharton provides, but I am not surprised that Duke outdoes Wharton itself because we are comparing an entire elite university to just one program, even if that one program is the single best undergraduate business program on Earth.</p>

<p>I don’t know enough about Michigan to do a similar analysis, but if Ross placed about 90 in Front Office positions at banks and LSA/CoE together placed another 50 like you said, that would bring the total banking total up to 140 for Michigan. So, it is about a 1/3 worse than Duke on an absolute basis which is EXACTLY what I suspected.</p>

<p>

@Alexandre

Very few Ross students accept back office or middle office positions. As far as I have followed Michigan Business school students, I have observed that its either all or nothing. If they don’t get front office offers, they typically go for a corporate position at a company like GE, Microsoft, IBM, Google, Cisco and Intel. I agree that not 100% will take front office jobs, but the majority will.

Sure, but the key is defining “majority” here. At any rate, Duke still comes out clearly better if we assume the same “majority” does front office here and takes good corporate roles otherwise.</p>

<p>

@Alexandre

20-25 total for both industries and both LSA and CoE? No way. Engineering places roughly 30-50 students into both IBanks and Strategy Consulting firms. LSA would also have about 30-50. Altogether, a conservative estimate would be 60 and a liberal estimate would be 100. Altogether, Michigan places between 170-230 students into IBanks (mostly front office) or strategy consulting firms.

I used your numbers for my above analysis anyway but I think these are too high for both these programs. Of course, there is no way for me or you to really verify this.</p>

<p>

@Alexandre

Your numbers for Michigan are low. The 200 figure for Duke sounds about right. The number of qualified students from Duke seeking those types of jobs is roughly equal to the number of qualified students from Michigan seeking them. Like I said, when it comes to placement into IBanks and Consulting firms, Duke and Michigan are pretty even.

I’m sure I misspoke at some point but that 200 number is just for banking itself. Consulting would be another 150 to give us that 350 total number I stated outright at the beginning. Duke and Michigan are not even close to being even as I have just shown with my analysis.</p>

<p>

@Alexandre

I am not so sure I understand your point. 2%-3% of Ross students join those 3 firms. Even Wharton does not place more than 5% of their students in those 3 firms. Last year, Wharton placed 27 out of almost 600 graduates in those firms. The fact is, all three of those firms recruit well at Michigan. McKinsey lists Michigan among the 10 or so strategic campuses they recruit from. If you go to the BCG New York website, you will see that a couple of their Senior partners/Manageing Directors did their undergraduate studies at Michigan. Clearly, to them, Michigan is very prestigious.

Since we’re talking about three specific companies here, its silly to use percentiles like “2%-3% of Ross students” and “5% of Wharton students” when they are so tiny; we should focus on absolute numbers instead. At any rate, 5% is a LOT MORE than 2-3% when we’re talking just about 3 companies here. I can’t believe you think that difference is irrelevant.</p>

<p>Ross sent 9 kids to MBB last year, which is not bad for a particular program but the fact that Wharton placed 27 in MBB last year is nothing sort of incredible. Wharton, by itself, places into MBB just as well as places like Dartmouth, Duke, Stanford, etc. and probably slightly less than say Harvard or Princeton.</p>

<p>Most of those senior partners/Managing Directors that you mention at BCG New York joined BCG after their MBA AND NOT after receiving their BA/BS from Michigan, which is a key distinction. For instance, one of the partners Steve joined BCG after getting his MBA from Wharton and NOT AFTER getting his BS in Engineering from Michigan, which means that it was his Wharton degree that landed the opportunity and not the Michigan one. If he had started as Associate at BCG right out of Michigan and progressed through the ranks, then you would be right, but that’s not the case here.</p>

<p>[BCG</a> in New York and New Jersey - Meet Us](<a href=“http://nym.bcg.com/meet/default.aspx#tcm5710056]BCG”>Contact Us | New York City, New York | BCG)</p>

<p>Amyn Merchant graduated from the University of Pennsylvania and went to Harvard Business School according to his LinkedIn profile. I’m not sure where you see the U of M connection.</p>

<p>

@Alexandre

That is exactly what I have always maintained LDB. The quality of a student body cannot be quantified. It is you who claims you can measure the quality of an entire student body, as if there were just a handful of metrics to determine such an unquantifiable concept.

Well, Stanford grads absolutely dominate law, med and biz school placement according to the WSJ (#4) and are the 4th leading producer of almost every type of Fellowship (Rhodes, Marshall, Truman, etc.) out there. In addition, their placement into industry in Engineering is second to none and their placement into Finance is also top notch.</p>

<p>Besides success in med school, Wash U grads are nowhere close. That’s why I know the Stanford student body is superior to the Wash U’s. The exit statistics are far better in the case of Stanford.</p>

<p>So, does Stanford have a better student body than Wash U or is the undergraduate education and reputation of Stanford so much better than Wash U that the former’s grads are far more successful in every postgraduate endeavor than the latter’s? Which one is it Alex? Pick your poison. Stanford wins either way.</p>

<p>

@Alexandre

That’s a significant departure from your usual stand LDB. Generally, you say that Michigan is not a top 25 undergraduate institution. Now you are saying it is better than WUSTL, which would make Michigan a top 20 undergraduate institution.

I was simply referring to postgraduate success, which is one measure of the strength of an undergraduate education. Wash U comes out on top over Michigan in terms of selectivity, student body strength, financial resources per capita, class sizes, etc. etc. So no, I maintain that Wash U is a solid top 20 school and Michigan is a fringe top 25 one for undergrad.</p>

<p>

@Alexandre

I am not talking about institutional quality, I am referring to the nature of the school and the makeup of their student bodies. Over 20% of the students at schools like Cal, Cornell, Michigan, Northwestern or Penn major in untraditional subjects such as Agriculture, Architecture, Art, Journalism, Music Performance, Nursing, Pharmacy etc… I find Duke more similar to Brown and Dartmouth. Chicago, Columbia and Johns Hopkins form a third type of school. To me, those 11 universities can be grouped into three types of universities and represent America’s elite undergraduate research universities, not including HYPSM of course. Those three types of universities are comparable in terms of quality, but vary in campus culture and student demographics.

Fair enough. I agree except I would group Duke with JHU and form a 4th group with just these two schools. The research-intensive nature of Duke separates it from Brown and Dartmouth which are more LACy. Chicago and Columbia are extremely similar due to their urban environments and well-established core curriculums.</p>

[Alexandre]

<p>Actually Duike777, your links aren’t very telling. 20% of Duke students are still seeking employment. Another 15% are either undecided or taking a gap year. 30% have accepted jobs. The link lists the top 5 hiring companies and the top 5 hiring indistries, but it does not actually give numbers. I find that suspicious. If the career office can break down the top 5 in order, it must, by definition, have actual numbers to support the claim. Why aren’t the numbers revealed?</p>

<p>At any rate, at first sight, those figures are in line with my expectations, and do not come close to supporting LDB’s claims. He claims that Duke far exceeds Ross. That over 200 Duke students take front office jobs with IBanks and with Management Consulting firms annually. Your link would suggestthat roughly a third of Duke seniors accept jobs (that’s 500 students when you extend it to the entire graduating class), and of those, 45% (225) accept jobs with Financial institutions (all types, not just front office and IBanks) and Consulting firms (again, all types, not just Management Consulting). Assuming that the normal distribution that applies to Wharton and Ross applies to Duke, of those 225 seniors who take jobs with Financial firms and with Consulting firms, only 100-120 or so accept front office jobs with IBanks or positons with Strategy Consulting firms. That would be in line with my expectations and with my long-standing stance that employers do not favor Duke’s campus or Duke students to Michigan or any other elite university he claims Duke is superior to.</p>

[Alexandre]

<p>"So, according to the class of 2009 stats, 45% of students who responded to the Career Survey (874 students or roughly more than half of the Duke student body) said they were doing “Finance/Banking” and “Consulting”. so that would be 393 kids going into those two industries. For the remaining half of the student body, if we say that maybe another 15% do banking or consulting (a significantly less percentage but they didn’t respond to the Career Survey so perhaps they struggled to obtain the employment they were looking for, though they most likely just didn’t bother to fill it out), then that’s roughly another 120 kids. So, without further breaking down “Finance/Banking” and “Consulting” into “IBD/S&T and “Management Consulting”, then 500+ Duke grads go into banking or consulting.”</p>

<p>Nice try LDB, but your math is all wrong…by a HUGE margin. You are assuming that the 874 students all accepted jobs. They did not. Only 32% of those students accepted jobs. 31% went to graduate school, 22% were still looking for jobs, 10% unsure and another 6% took internships or fellowships. 32% of 874 is 280 seniors. And of those, 45% (125) accepted jobs with Financial Institutions (that would include all types of firms, not just IBanks) and Constuling firms (again, not limited to just Strategy Consulting). </p>

<p>Typically, following Wharton and Ross figures and trends, only about half of students students who join Financial Institutions actually join IBanks. The rest join Commercial Banks and other types of financial institutions. Also only half of the students who join Consulting firms join Strategy Consulting firms. The rest join other types of consulting firms. So, of those 125 Duke seniors who joined Financial Firms and Consulting firms, it is safe to estimate that roughly 65 or so took jobs with IBanks (including back office and middle office) or Strategy Consulting firms. </p>

<p>Of course, that’s out of 874. Duke graduates roughly 1,500, so if we extrapolate (fair and fair), the number grows from 65 to roughly 110 (roughly equal to Ross, wich is significantly smaller than Duke). Do you care to take back your ridiculous claims LDB, or are you still in complete denial?</p>

[Alexandre]

<p>Another thing LDB, and you never responded to this…and I suspect you never will. How come Duke’s career office can break down the top 5 recruiting firms and the top 5 recruiting industries according to the seniors who join but somehow, magically, does not actually list the numbers? Afterall, if they can actually publish a ranking of firms and industries, they should have hard numbers to support those ranks. Why aren’t those numbers published?</p>

[GoBlue81]

<p>

How come Duke’s career office can break down the top 5 recruiting firms and the top 5 recruiting industries according to the seniors who join but somehow, magically, does not actually list the numbers?

Perhaps the Duke Career Office is modest and doesn’t want to brag?</p>

[Alexandre]

<p>If that’s the case, Duke’s career office should teach LDB a lesson in humility.</p>

<p>But I doubt Duke’s not listing numbers has anything to do with humility or lack of data. The data is therebut Duke chooses not to publish it And universities will boast whenever given the opportunity. </p>

<p>The reason data is not released is because it simply won’t be that impressive. Let us face it, if Duke published exact data with 20% of students still looking for jobs and just 100 seniors landing jobs with IBanks and Strategy Consulting firms out of 800 students who actually looked for jobs, prospective students would not be impressed. </p>

<p>Of course, Duke is not alone in camouflaging otherwise unimpressive placement data. Most private universities choose not to publish reports. Michigan LSA does not either, probably for the same reason. The placement figures simply won’t be impressive. And there is nothing wrong with that. With the exception of Harvard and perhaps Princeton, no university is going to have mind-blowing figures. </p>

<p>But when CC posters like LDB exaggerate outrageously, claiming that 450 seniors (a whopping 30% of the university’s entire graduating class and over 50% of Duke seniors seeking work) land jobs with IBanks and Management Consulting firms, I react. I react because they claim those figures in the context that their school is far superior to a peer institution. Are all students attending private universities like that? On the Michigan forum alone, there has been a half dozen Duke students who post similar lies. Just look at Michigan students. Wolverines like Bearcats and Giants. They openly admit that Michigan has its flaws and weaknesses. They are proud of their school, but they do not go to other university forums, trash the host university and claim that university is far superior. Wolverines like RJKNovi are more gung ho, but again, they do not post trash about other universities on other forums.</p>

[lesdiablesbleus]

<p>

@Alexandre

At any rate, at first sight, those figures are in line with my expectations, and do not come close to supporting LDB’s claims. He claims that Duke far exceeds Ross. That over 200 Duke students take front office jobs with IBanks and with Management Consulting firms annually. Your link would suggestthat roughly a third of Duke seniors accept jobs (that’s 500 students when you extend it to the entire graduating class), and of those, 45% (225) accept jobs with Financial institutions (all types, not just front office and IBanks) and Consulting firms (again, all types, not just Management Consulting). Assuming that the normal distribution that applies to Wharton and Ross applies to Duke, of those 225 seniors who take jobs with Financial firms and with Consulting firms, only 100-120 or so accept front office jobs with IBanks or positons with Strategy Consulting firms. That would be in line with my expectations and with my long-standing stance that employers do not favor Duke’s campus or Duke students to Michigan or any other elite university he claims Duke is superior to.

Nope, pretty much all 225 of these Duke seniors accept Front office roles at banks or consulting gigs. I’ve only heard of one BB recruiting here for MO/BO and I don’t know anyone that accepted that position. There are no “bad” consulting firms that recruit here and they don’t have to be Strategy focused to be good. Bates White, Cornerstone and NERA are just as top-notch if you’re interested in economic/litigation issues. Firms like Huron Consulting that recruit at Michigan would be classified as “bad” consulting firms. Those kind of companies don’t even bother coming to elite private schools.</p>

<p>

@Alexandre

Nice try LDB, but your math is all wrong…by a HUGE margin. You are assuming that the 874 students all accepted jobs. They did not. Only 32% of those students accepted jobs. 31% went to graduate school, 22% were still looking for jobs, 10% unsure and another 6% took internships or fellowships. 32% of 874 is 280 seniors. And of those, 45% (125) accepted jobs with Financial Institutions (that would include all types of firms, not just IBanks) and Constuling firms (again, not limited to just Strategy Consulting). </p>

<p>Typically, following Wharton and Ross figures and trends, only about half of students students who join Financial Institutions actually join IBanks. The rest join Commercial Banks and other types of financial institutions. Also only half of the students who join Consulting firms join Strategy Consulting firms. The rest join other types of consulting firms. So, of those 125 Duke seniors who joined Financial Firms and Consulting firms, it is safe to estimate that roughly 65 or so took jobs with IBanks (including back office and middle office) or Strategy Consulting firms.

Nice try there halving the student total that is interested in banking/consulting by assuming they do commercial banking or bottom-tier consulting. Firms don’t recruit for such roles here at Duke, but they would at Michigan because of the high range in academic ability that exists at the school. The bottom 20% of Michigan’s student body that’s interested in business would kill for an Operations role at a BB. That’s just a function of the size of the university.</p>

<p>

@Alexandre

Typically, following Wharton and Ross figures and trends, only about half of students students who join Financial Institutions actually join IBanks. The rest join Commercial Banks and other types of financial institutions. Also only half of the students who join Consulting firms join Strategy Consulting firms. The rest join other types of consulting firms. So, of those 125 Duke seniors who joined Financial Firms and Consulting firms, it is safe to estimate that roughly 65 or so took jobs with IBanks (including back office and middle office) or Strategy Consulting firms. </p>

<p>Of course, that’s out of 874. Duke graduates roughly 1,500, so if we extrapolate (fair and fair), the number grows from 65 to roughly 110 (roughly equal to Ross, wich is significantly smaller than Duke). Do you care to take back your ridiculous claims LDB, or are you still in complete denial?

You’re the one in denial if you think Ross by itself places well as an entire elite private university. MBB itself hires 30 Blue Devils each year and they only took 9 from Ross last year. Duke was the 2nd most represented school at Goldman Sachs firmwide this year and Michigan wasn’t even in the top 10.</p>

<p>You are sadly mistaken if you think half of the students who go into Finance from a top 10 school do MO/BO/Administrative roles.</p>

<p>

@Alexandre

Another thing LDB, and you never responded to this…and I suspect you never will. How come Duke’s career office can break down the top 5 recruiting firms and the top 5 recruiting industries according to the seniors who join but somehow, magically, does not actually list the numbers? Afterall, if they can actually publish a ranking of firms and industries, they should have hard numbers to support those ranks. Why aren’t those numbers published?

They probably do have hard numbers but they don’t bother creating a detailed report of undergraduate hiring statistics because that’s not as important as devoting resources to career counseling and interview prep. Again, the goal of well-rounded national university with a strong liberal arts curriculum is to provide students with a well-rounded undergraduate education, not funnel them into jobs.</p>

<p>Why doesn’t Harvard publish an employment report? Yale? Princeton? Columbia? Prospective students don’t need to see a hiring report to see that Harvard or Princeton or Duke or whatever are well-recruited. It’s common sense. The explicit goal of an undergrad business program like Ross on the other hand is to get their graduates jobs in the business world, so an employment report is necessary to measure its success, maintain its reputation and attract prospective students.</p>

<p>

@Alexandre

The reason data is not released is because it simply won’t be that impressive. Let us face it, if Duke published exact data with 20% of students still looking for jobs and just 100 seniors landing jobs with IBanks and Strategy Consulting firms out of 800 students who actually looked for jobs, prospective students would not be impressed.

</p>

<p>

@Alexandre

Of course, Duke is not alone in camouflaging otherwise unimpressive placement data. Most private universities choose not to publish reports. Michigan LSA does not either, probably for the same reason. The placement figures simply won’t be impressive. And there is nothing wrong with that. With the exception of Harvard and perhaps Princeton, no university is going to have mind-blowing figures.

I can’t believe what I am just reading. You have Harvard level arrogance with a state school degree.</p>

<p>Once again, you quote an extremely low figure of 100 Duke grads landing jobs with IBanks and Consulting firms (not sure why you just include Strategy again) when in reality the number is much, much higher. You have to make delusional claims like half of seniors go into MO/BO/Administrative positions in order to support your absurd Maize and Blue agenda.</p>

<p>If you read that Career Survey, you would see that a 1/3 of Duke seniors pursue graduate and professional education so its not like all the rest are looking for jobs. The ones that are seeking jobs probably deferred their job search for after college so they can concentrate on finishing up schooling/research/extracurriculars their senior year of college and then focus solely on job hunting after. As far as the gap year goes, it is common practice for students to take a year off from school before going to law or medical school.</p>

<p>

@Alexandre

But when CC posters like LDB exaggerate outrageously, claiming that 450 seniors (a whopping 30% of the university’s entire graduating class and over 50% of Duke seniors seeking work) land jobs with IBanks and Management Consulting firms, I react. I react because they claim those figures in the context that their school is far superior to a peer institution. Are all students attending private universities like that? On the Michigan forum alone, there has been a half dozen Duke students who post similar lies. Just look at Michigan students. Wolverines like Bearcats and Giants. They openly admit that Michigan has its flaws and weaknesses. They are proud of their school, but they do not go to other university forums, trash the host university and claim that university is far superior. Wolverines like RJKNovi are more gung ho, but again, they do not post trash about other universities on other forums.

Wolverines like Bearcats and Giants, to a lesser extent, actually have firsthand experience working in the financial industry in recent times and are able to view things more objectively. RJKNovi is just an ignorant fool.</p>

<p>You, on the other hand, make serious assumptions about student bodies you have no relation with and pass them off as fact. Duke’s student body is extremely balanced and yet you claim they are all pre-professional, when clearly a 1/3 pursue graduate school. The reason I’m on this forum and this thread is because my sister is investigating various BBA programs out and I’m helping her out in the process, so when I came across a thread titled “BBA”, I naturally opened with. You go on many other forums and claim to pose objective comparisons and observations of universities when they are outright lies.</p>

<p>I’ve never heard the Duke newspaper ever mention Michigan as a peer school in any manner or situation. I’ve heard them quote every other private school in the top 20 of USNWR at some point or another. In fact, I studied abroad with some Michigan kids along with many other state school students at a foreign university and a Princeton professor who taught all of openly made fun of the students from Michigan, Minnesota and UCLA when he was coincidentally sitting at a dinner table one night surrounded by just Princeton, Duke and Northwestern kids. He even mentioned, “Thank god I teach at a private school like Princeton with smart students and not in-state morons and rich out-of-state kids who were private university rejects!”</p>

<p>No young academic I know views Michigan to be on par with schools like Penn, Columbia, etc. U of M has an extremely strong graduate school ranking that seeps through to the undergrad level to boost the overall university rating but its reputation as a great undergraduate institution has been slipping as it plummets in the USNWR. It won’t even be in the Top 30 next year. Mark my words.</p>

[giants92]

<p>

The bottom 20% of Michigan’s student body that’s interested in business would kill for an Operations role at a BB.

</p>

<p>Not if they know what’s good for them (i.e. I disagree). Operations is a death sentence. </p>

<p>

Once again, you quote an extremely low figure of 100 Duke grads landing jobs with IBanks and Consulting firms (not sure why you just include Strategy again) when in reality the number is much, much higher.

</p>

<p>If you’re hating on firms like Huron, you should not be including students who take not-so-great investment banking jobs.</p>

[square]

<p>

“Thank god I teach at a private school like Princeton with smart students and not in-state morons and rich out-of-state kids who were private university rejects!”

LOL making up bs again? wasnt it you or ROF, same person perhaps, who claimed that a professor was embarassed cuz she graduated from upenn but not wharton?</p>

[KenLewis]

<p>No respectable academic judges an entire student body as “in-state morons and rich out-of-state kids who were private university rejects,” but I guess even such people can still influence impressionable kids. I know several students who rejected private universities to attend Michigan (myself being one of them), so that statement is moot.</p>

<p>Seems like many of your arguments in this thread are based on weak experiences such as these.</p>

[lesdiablesbleus]

<p>

@square

LOL making up bs again? wasnt it you or ROF, same person perhaps, who claimed that a professor was embarassed cuz she graduated from upenn but not wharton?

Nope.</p>

<p>

@KenLewis

No respectable academic judges an entire student body as “in-state morons and rich out-of-state kids who were private university rejects,” but I guess even such people can still influence impressionable kids. I know several students who rejected private universities to attend Michigan (myself being one of them), so that statement is moot.</p>

<p>Seems like many of your arguments in this thread are based on weak experiences such as these.

I think he was just frustrated by the low caliber of the state school students enrolled in his class in comparison to the kids he’s used to teaching at Princeton. He probably would have kept that remark to himself but we were drinking a lot of wine that night and after a few glasses…his true feelings were revealed.;)</p>

[KenLewis]

<p>And so how is a stupid sentence uttered by a drunken professor for a study abroad class anything close to some kind of proof that Michigan students aren’t well-regarded by people that matter?</p>