Berkeley--An Undergrad's Great Experience

<p>I have two kids, both boys, one of whom graduated with honors from Cornell in 2002 and the other from Berkeley with honors in 1999. The Cornell grad told me about this web site. In the week or so that I’ve been a lurker I have been astonished at the hostility displayed by a few posters toward Berkeley.</p>

<p>These hostile posters fall into a number of categories. One denigrates all aspects of Berkeley, refusing to acknowledge the many measures of its faculty’s superiority. This critic also seems to enjoy demeaning Berkeley undergrads, generalizing from the bottom quarter--those admitted with lesser grades and test scores to fulfill Berkeley’s state mandate to be accessible to a wide range of students. Another, reluctantly concedes the excellence of Berkeley’s graduate departments (often without acknowledging just how highly ranked virtually all of them are), but asserts that this has no bearing on undergraduates. He claims, with no evidence, that excellence in research is somehow antithetical to good undergraduate teaching. Finally, other critics cite the U.S. News rankings, evidently oblivious to their bias against public universities as well as their internal inconsistencies. Re private school bias consider the September 23, 1996 letter from Gerhard Caspar, President of Stanford, to the editor of U.S. News. He wrote: “Let me offer as prima facie evidence [of the absurdity of the rankings] two great public universities: the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor and the University of California-Berkeley. These clearly are among the very best universities in America—one could make a strong argument for either in the top half-dozen. Yet, in the last three years, the U.S. News formula has assigned them ranks that lead many readers to infer that they are second rate: Michigan 21-24-24, and Berkeley 23-26-27.” Re the internal inconsistency of the rankings, for years U.S. News ranked only two undergraduate departments, Business and Engineering, and had Berkeley in the top five in both. (One year first in Business and third in Engineering). At the same time the magazine placed Berkeley’s Ph.D. programs at the very top, yet ranked the school as a whole in the 20’s in the category “National Universities”.</p>

<p>With the forgoing digression I will write about my older son’s experience at Berkeley in the late 90’s. He grew up in Santa Cruz, California surfing once or twice a day year round. He was a good if unfocused high school student. His initial inclination was to go to UC San Diego, a fine school, where surf was available five minutes from class, but as parents we hoped he would attend Berkeley because of our sense that if offered opportunities few places could match (and where he could still surf, though in San Francisco 30 minutes away). </p>

<p>Belying the stereotype for public universities, our son had several small classes as a freshman, honors physics, a freshman philosophy seminar and a math class that was one step beyond calculus. He also had his share of large survey classes. By the end of the year he had no more sense of what he wanted to do than he had in high school.</p>

<p>In the Fall of his sophomore year he took introductory Chemistry. There were several hundred students in the class, what you would find at most major research universities, public or private, including Harvard (though not Chicago or Princeton). The professor was a renowned scientist. He was also an exceptional lecturer who regularly taught beginning Chemistry. His lectures were so outstanding, so inspirational, that they led my son to major in Chemistry.</p>

<p>There are College Insider posters who seem to believe that if you are a great researcher you must not be a good teacher. There is no basis for this and it makes no logical sense. If anything the opposite is often true. Top professors can infuse their lectures with the excitement and possibilities of new science and scholarship and this can be contagious. Berkeley is filled with such professors, many of whom actually seek out undergraduates. Consider Alex Filippenko, one of the top astrophysicists in the world. Filippenko regularly teaches a lower division introductory astronomy class that fulfills a breadth requirement and is therefore taken by many non-majors. He is a wildly popular lecturer. </p>

<p>In his junior year, now majoring in chemistry, my son received class credit for work in a professor’s lab. He was at the bottom of the totem pole, below post docs, grad students and senior undergrads. However, the professor was accessible to all the students, often discussing chemistry with my son in the lab or over a beer or pizza at off-campus gatherings. In addition to this professor’s mentoring, my son became close to a number of outstanding grad students. They were invaluable to his education teaching him, from a student’s perspective, much about what it takes to do independent research in chemistry. One of these grad students, a woman, was of particular help. She was an MIT graduate who had her pick of schools and who chose Berkeley not only because of the quality of the Chemistry Department, but because with its significant group of women professors she perceived it as particularly hospitable to women.</p>

<p>Given the stature of Berkeley’s Chemistry Department it seems that everybody who is anybody in the world of Chemistry comes through the Department at one time or another offering a lecture or seminar. Berkeley’s faculty of course does the same. My son attended many of these and some of his best learning came from them.</p>

<p>My son had a great upper division experience. He took a broad and difficult array of classes. Some were large. But others were seminars and in those he got to know the professors. In one small class, taught by a young woman budding superstar who won every award available to a young scientist, the professor approached my son in a campus common area with a cup of coffee and proceeded to shoot the breeze with him for half an hour. </p>

<p>At the same time my son received his bachelor’s degree in May, 1999, a top grad student in the department received his Ph.D. This grad student accepted an offer to teach at Harvard without going through the customary step of the post-doc. He knew my son had done well and recruited him to go East in his new lab.</p>

<p>I do not believe my son could have received a better education and better preparation for grad school at any other institution, public, private, Ivy, big or small. He went on to do exceptionally well as a grad student at Harvard, receiving several fellowships on the way to his June, 2004 Ph.D. One of these was a National Science Foundation Graduate Fellowship. His receipt of the NSF award led me to look at these fellowships more closely in the years 2000-2002. There are many measures of the excellence of Berkeley’s faculty—including the number of McArthur Fellows, Nobel Prize, National Medal of Science, Guggenheim Fellowship and National Science Foundation Young Investigators Award winners, and National Academy of Science and National Academy of Engineering members. However NSF winners are grad students. The NSF Fellowships are awarded to graduating seniors or first year grad students mostly in the traditional sciences and engineering, with a few in the social sciences. About 1000 were granted each year from 2000-2002. They are “portable” in the sense that a winner can take the fellowship to any school of his or her choosing. During these years four schools dominated the places where NSF winners chose to attend, together enrolling about 1/3 of the winners. These four were MIT, Berkeley, Stanford and Harvard. The numbers are astounding. For example in 2002 MIT had 112, Berkeley 93, Stanford 78 and Harvard 72. No other school even reached 30. I kid you not. Cornell was next with 27. Close to Cornell were Princeton with 23 and the University of Washington with 22. (Some others—Georgia Tech-19, Cal Tech-17, The University of Wisconsin-17, The University of Illinois-17, Chicago-15, Yale-12, Duke and Rice-11, Northwestern-8, Columbia-7 and Penn-4. Other University of California campuses did relatively well. Davis had 19, the medical center at UC San Francisco-17, UCLA-14, Santa Barbara-13 and San Diego-11.) As to the schools that produced the most undergrads who received NSF awards, Harvard had 42, MIT 35, Berkeley 34, Stanford 25, Cornell 23, Michigan 20, Texas-Austin 19, Illinois and Princeton 18 and Cal Tech 17. Everybody else followed.</p>

<p>If some of you have gotten this far and wonder why my younger son went to Cornell, that too has a Berkeley dimension and it provides yet another example of a great researcher open to all students. Briefly, from the time my younger son was little he was fascinated with herpetology, which developed into a desire to study evolutionary biology. When he was a freshman in high school he wrote to the country’s leading academic herpetologist, then a professor at Berkeley. This professor invited my son and me to his lab on a Saturday morning (Berkeley is 75 miles from our home) where he proceeded to spend two hours talking to my 14 year old boy and taking him through Berkeley’s vertebrate zoology collections. My son stayed in touch with this professor and when he left Berkeley for Cornell my son followed him (and had him as his advisor). By the way, Cornell is fantastic in biology.</p>

<p>Berkeley may not be for everybody. But for bright focused undergrads it offers extraordinary opportunities. It also happens to be in a great place. My older son loved the restaurants, clubs, and goings on in Berkeley and neighboring San Francisco.</p>

<p>You could have made all of your points in just a few sentences (and your bland writing style didn't help), it sounds like you just want to brag about your sons, and you failed to address what I found to be the most repelling argument against Berkeley- its poor social environment. Everyone knows that Berkeley is great academically, but that's not all they care about.</p>

<p>Wow, incredible read. Berkeley looks better than ever now!</p>

<p>pryrtgtrilinh: I could beg to differ. Berkeley Parent's response was very inspirational and her writing style was by no means bland, if not exceptionally well-thought out. She made very strong comments on the quality of the professors, which always adds a positive image to the school. For a boy with no former direction to find himself in love with Chemistry, that's definitely something.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Another, reluctantly concedes the excellence of Berkeley’s graduate departments (often without acknowledging just how highly ranked virtually all of them are), but asserts that this has no bearing on undergraduates. He claims, with no evidence, that excellence in research is somehow antithetical to good undergraduate teaching.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I have to believe that this was a shot at me, and I responded to this in another thread. Reference my response in post #414 here. </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=2054561#post2054561%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=2054561#post2054561&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>pryrtgtrilinh, don't be that guy.</p>

<p>BerkeleyParent, great insight and I enjoyed reading your post...makes me excited, I will be at Cal next year (though a polisci major). </p>

<p>pryrtgtrilinh, I didn't get the feeling that she was trying to impress us with her sons at all. stop acting like a whiny little puke, or are you envious of something her sons did?</p>

<p>I'm assuming you're criticizing me as one of those people but I've already pointed out in my threads that Berkeley offers a lot academically to a very motivated undergraduate student. </p>

<p>In the beginning you mentioned a few points, but only continued on to attempt to refute one of them, mainly the one about Berkeley's undergraduate education being sub-par. </p>

<p>Your son got lucky, the Berkeley undergraduate experience is a pretty uneven experience in general and in no way can your son's experiences be generalized upon the general population at Berkeley. I said as much the same about my uncannily bad experiences here; I just offered a perspective about Berkeley that wasn't at all positive. In addition he attended before the budget crisis where classes became even more overcrowded and the Berkeley experience became diminished.</p>

<p>I would find any and all of the experiences your son had to be very, very rare in relation to the common berkeley experience, especially now with more students in relation to active faculty. </p>

<p>Your son also seems to have suddenly "blossomed" from a laid-back surfer to a genius, as well, in addition to all the anecdotes in your story. As such, I have serious trouble believing it at all and that any Berkeley student would have an equivalent experience. A harvard post-doc acceptance can be affected greatly by a professor's preference for a student, but most if not all people still need the grades and GRE to make it. I assume during all these schmoozing your son actually studied some.</p>

<p>"I do not believe my son could have received a better education and better preparation for grad school at any other institution, public, private, Ivy, big or small."</p>

<p>He was lucky enough to get a graduate student as an undergrad. 99% of Berkeley students are not so lucky and have to deal with the ACTUAL undergrad experience. Berkeley has its good aspects, but lets not deceive ourselves here, these aspects are almost entirely exclusive to its graduate program with some trickle down effects to the undergrad department ... if you're lucky.</p>

<p>These hostile posters fall into a number of categories. One denigrates all aspects of Berkeley, refusing to acknowledge the many measures of its faculty’s superiority. This critic also seems to enjoy demeaning Berkeley undergrads, generalizing from the bottom quarter--those admitted with lesser grades and test scores to fulfill Berkeley’s state mandate to be accessible to a wide range of students. Another, reluctantly concedes the excellence of Berkeley’s graduate departments (often without acknowledging just how highly ranked virtually all of them are), but asserts that this has no bearing on undergraduates. He claims, with no evidence, that excellence in research is somehow antithetical to good undergraduate teaching. Finally, other critics cite the U.S. News rankings, evidently oblivious to their bias against public universities as well as their internal inconsistencies. Re private school bias consider the September 23, 1996 letter from Gerhard Caspar, President of Stanford, to the editor of U.S. News. He wrote: “Let me offer as prima facie evidence [of the absurdity of the rankings] two great public universities: the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor and the University of California-Berkeley. These clearly are among the very best universities in America—one could make a strong argument for either in the top half-dozen. Yet, in the last three years, the U.S. News formula has assigned them ranks that lead many readers to infer that they are second rate: Michigan 21-24-24, and Berkeley 23-26-27.” Re the internal inconsistency of the rankings, for years U.S. News ranked only two undergraduate departments, Business and Engineering, and had Berkeley in the top five in both. (One year first in Business and third in Engineering). At the same time the magazine placed Berkeley’s Ph.D. programs at the very top, yet ranked the school as a whole in the 20’s in the category “National Universities”.</p>

<p>I'm assuming you're criticizing me as one of those people but I've already pointed out in my threads that Berkeley offers a lot academically to a very motivated undergraduate student. </p>

<p>In the beginning you mentioned a few points, but only continued on to attempt to refute one of them, mainly the one about Berkeley's undergraduate education being sub-par. </p>

<p>Your son got lucky, the Berkeley undergraduate experience is a pretty uneven experience in general and in no way can your son's experiences be generalized upon the general population at Berkeley. I said as much the same about my uncannily bad experiences here; I just offered a perspective about Berkeley that wasn't at all positive. In addition he attended before the budget crisis where classes became even more overcrowded and the Berkeley experience became diminished.</p>

<p>I would find any and all of the experiences your son had to be very, very rare in relation to the common berkeley experience, especially now with more students in relation to active faculty. </p>

<p>Your son also seems to have suddenly "blossomed" from a laid-back surfer to a genius, as well, in addition to all the anecdotes in your story. As such, I have serious trouble believing it at all and that any Berkeley student would have an equivalent experience. A harvard post-doc acceptance can be affected greatly by a professor's preference for a student, but most if not all people still need the grades and GRE to make it. I assume during all these schmoozing your son actually studied some.</p>

<p>"I do not believe my son could have received a better education and better preparation for grad school at any other institution, public, private, Ivy, big or small."</p>

<p>He was lucky enough to get a graduate student as an undergrad. 99% of Berkeley students are not so lucky and have to deal with the ACTUAL undergrad experience. Berkeley has its good aspects, but lets not deceive ourselves here, these aspects are almost entirely exclusive to its graduate program with some trickle down effects to the undergrad department ... if you're lucky.</p>

<p>Debbiedowner--
So his experience doesn't mean as much as yours? Why is it that his case is the anomaly and yours isn't? I see my experience as being much closer to this woman's son than yours, so maybe its just you and not the institution.</p>

<p>Bah bloody lag.</p>

<p>"Your son got lucky, the Berkeley undergraduate experience is a pretty uneven experience in general and in no way can your son's experiences be generalized upon the general population at Berkeley. I said as much the same about my uncannily bad experiences here; I just offered a perspective about Berkeley that wasn't at all positive. In addition he attended before the budget crisis where classes became even more overcrowded and the Berkeley experience became diminished."</p>

<p>Translation for kindergarteners: Neither his/her son's experience or my experience can be generalized to all Berkeley students and are thusly equivalent.</p>

<p>A little practice at reading goes a long way Gentleman.</p>

<p>And thank you for proving everyone's points about how obnoxious and poor the social environment is among undergraduates.</p>

<p>I laughed so hard after reading that last post. Thank you for making my night. In one post you say two things. First, you say "the Berkeley undergraduate experience is a pretty uneven experience in GENERAL" (my caps) Then, just a few lines later, you say, "Translation for kindergarteners: Neither his/her son's experience or my experience can be GENERALIZED."(again, my caps) All hail the debbiedowner!</p>

<p>Yes our personal experiences can't be generalized on the whole population. However, from my conversations and the wide consensus, the undergraduate experience is quite uneven. I've had some great professors and some utterly terrible ones and so have many of my friends. So considering that other people and myself have had both good and bad experiences (and many people other than me have pointed out their bad experiences on this board already), the only generalization that can be made with any accuracy is that the Berkeley experience is uneven.</p>

<p>Lets not talk to each other any more gentleman, you obviously have nothing to contribute but spurious psycho-analytical judgements of people with whom you disagree.</p>

<p>I stand by my points. If any third party doubts our points, just come to Berkeley and see whether gentlemanscholar or I am right, and be prepared to transfer when you realize the truth.</p>

<p>"you obviously have nothing to contribute but spurious psycho-analytical judgements of people you disagree with."</p>

<p>And you have nothing to say. You can't even make it through a single post with out contradicting youself.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Sakky, I am unimpressed by your “mountains of evidence.” Once established a stereotype becomes easy to repeat and difficult to overcome. The hackneyed stereotype is that big research schools don’t teach undergrads; their professors are interested only in research. Your sources resort to this lazy approach.
Several state that since professors at major research universities are promoted based on quality of research, they must be bad teachers. There is no logical or empirical support for this assertion. The assertion can be repeated ad nauseam, and is by people with various agendas, but repetition does not make it true.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No logical or empirical support? So you're just going to dismiss the Boyer Report out of hand? So this is not "logical or empirical support" in your estimation? This is lazy? That study has been credit with being the comprehensive study about the subject to date, from policy analysts and academics across the political spectrum. </p>

<p>Fine, have it your way. Let's use your standards of proof. I would like to see equally eminent studies and reports as Boyer to support your assertion that research universities do NOT tend to suffer from problems with teaching, and in particular, problems with undergraduate teaching. You say that my studies are weak, yet I don't see you presenting studies in your favor. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Consider Thomas Sowell, the conservative economist. He is a relentless privatizer who would oppose any government institution that competes in the private sector. He considers it a waste to maintain excellence in public higher education. Others, like me, believe it is a measure of society’s success that the U.S. has great private and public universities. Sowell’s statement that the main output of research institutions is research, not undergraduate teaching, is meaningless. How do you measure one versus the other. Why do you assume that if one is good the other must be bad. Likewise, Sowell’s anecdote about a single Michigan professor who stated that teaching cost him money and prestige is worthless. I am aware of dozens of great researchers, at Berkeley alone, who are terrific undergraduate teachers. I acknowledge the anecdotal character of the post about my son’s experience. Sowell, however, seeks to mold public opinion in his columns, articles and books. In this area he is seriously lacking.</p>

<p>

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</p>

<p>Personally, I don't see what Sowell's biography has anything to do with the issue at hand. You are simply engaging in ad-hominem attacks against him without actually engaging the points he has raised. Sowell is merely one in a long line of policy analysts who has noted that research universities tend to priorize research first, undergraduate teaching second. In fact, he has written several notable chapters on this very subject, heavily footnoted with numerous government reports. His points, as far as I know, have heretofor have gone unanswered. </p>

<p>Let's say you're right. Let's say that he is a conservative hack. So what? That still doesn't address the points he has made. And it certainly doesn't address the points that the Boyer Report has made. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I acknowledge the anecdotal character of the post about my son’s experience.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And that's precisely the problem. I have several anecdotes of my own. In fact, I could talk about several close friends of mine who were quite badly served by Berkeley's nature, particularly its coldness towards undergraduates who aren't doing well. </p>

<p>But have it your way. Dismiss the Boyer Report. Dismiss the reports from the Department of Education. Dismiss the editorials that come out in the Daily Cal every so often that call for a greater emphasis on undergraduate teaching. Dismiss it all. A tremendous body of evidence exists that Berkeley has problems with undergraduate education. But obviously anybody can simply dismiss it all without offering any equally weighty evidence on their part.</p>

<p>Thanx, berkeleyparent, ur making me look forward 2
Cal next year, and calming my mom's worry's that ill fall into the crowd.
(accepted poli-sci)</p>

<p>Well, I'm not interested in the main topic. I was just amazed by how much Berkeley Parent knows about her sons' education. I'm not saying that may parents are apathetic. They do care, but seem to let me step every step on my own since very early.
Is Berkeley Parent case a norm for American parents & how much they pay attention to their children's education?</p>

<p>Twitb, I think that my parents would be able to recite all of my accomplishments (and my siblings') if they ever felt like ;) But--ok, seriously. I think a parent who obviously is also an academic would tend to be very interested in his/her child's journey through college. And for what it's worth, it's not that I tell my parents everything, but I do report to them exam scores, professors that I've met, and other highlights of my academic experience. My parents though aren't science-oriented people; they're both accountants and wouldn't know the difference between a plant and animal cell at all, so it's hard for them to keep track of the finer points of my jubilations (or frustrations) at, say, getting a tough question on a cell bio midterm right (or wrong).</p>

<p>Berkeley Parent, I do salute you for having raised wonderful sons. I'm glad that your Berkeley alumnus enjoyed his time here thoroughly.</p>

<p>
[quote]
First, I do not believe Sowell is a "conservative hack." The particular column you cite is weak.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Then perhaps you'd prefer some of Sowell's other writings. In particular, you may want to read his book "Choosing a College". In fact, I would direct you to Chapter 2 of that book, in the section "Teaching vs. Research". </p>

<p>
[quote]
Second, the focus of many of your past posts, I have not read them all, is Berkeley, not research universities in general. It is the singling out of Berkeley that seems to reveal an animus. If you want to comment generally about research universities, public and private, that is a different matter

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</p>

<p>Is that right? First off, if you actually go through my old posts and read them in context, you will note that I have always said that Berkeley shares the same problems as many other research universities, and hence this is not a matter of singling out only Berkeley. I only single out Berkeley for problems that I view to be especially prominent at Berkeley. </p>

<p>The truth is, Berkeley does have an especially cold bureaucracy, relative to the private schools. It does lack for consulting services on a per-capita basis. It does require an unusually strong backbone in order to thrive. There are plenty of students that fall through the cracks. Note that these are all statements that are RELATIVE to the elite private schools. Does that mean that these schools are immune to these problems. Of course not. But Berkeley seems to suffer from them more than they do.</p>

<p>Also, even if I was singling out Berkeley for problems that are endemic to research universities as a whole (which I am not), so what? So if I observe that Berkeley has bad undergraduate teaching, and then you observe that research universities in general tend to have bad undergraduate teaching, how does that let Berkeley off the hook? Just because Scott Peterson murders his wife doesn't mean that it's OK if other guys murder their wives. Think of it this way. If Berkeley fixes its problems and the other universities don't, then Berkeley will be better than those other universities. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I stand by my statement that Berkeley in particular, I can't speak for others, has tried very hard to improve the undergraduate experience. I also know that there are legions of great professors at Berkeley who care a great deal about undergrads.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Look, nobody is saying that Berkeley hasn't devoted resources to the problem. And nobody is saying that there are plenty of profs at Berkeley who care about undergrads. Of course these are true statements.</p>

<p>But the fact is, there are plenty of other profs who don't care about undergrads. Be honest. You know it's true. And sometimes they get forced into teaching undergrad classes that they don't want to teach, so they take it out on the students. That's a bad experience for everybody involved. The profs don't enjoy it. The students don't enjoy it. Everybody loses. This needs to be fixed. </p>

<p>Does Berkeley spend a lot on undergrad resources? Sure, on a nominal level, but it clearly is not enough, especially due to the large number of undergrads around. The resources per capita is insufficient. Let me give you an example. None of HYPSM try to restrict your major selection. If you go to Stanford intending to major in English and then later decide that you'd rather major in EE, you just go right ahead and do that. Nobody is going to stop you. At Berkeley, it's not that simple. EECS is a heavily impacted major meaning that plenty of students try to switch into the major and are denied. That tells me that Berkeley is not investing enough into slack capacity to allow people to switch majors freely. I consider the ability to shop around and try on different majors to be a cornerstone of undergraduate education. At Berkeley, such a capability is straitened. A lot of students at Berkeley end up majoring in things they don't really want to major in because they couldn't get into the major they really wanted. That's a problem.</p>

<p>None of this is to take away from the accomplishments of Berkeley. I believe that Berkeley undergrad is still one of the top undergrad public programs in the country. I would clearly advocate going to Berkeley over most public schools, and even many private ones. However, we cannot simply dismiss the problems at Berkeley either.</p>

<p>It's always the best to state the pro's and con's together, because there's always somebody who deserve the applause and someone else who should be charged for the negatives. Making general statements only neglects the people behind the scene.</p>