Undergrad Chemistry at Berkeley

<p>This is a long post that focuses, after the first few paragraphs, on my son's experience as a Chemistry major at Berkeley in the late 90's.</p>

<p>I have two kids, both boys, one of whom graduated with honors from Cornell in 2002 and the other from Berkeley with honors in 1999. The Cornell grad told me about this web site. In the week or so that I’ve been a lurker I have been astonished at the hostility displayed by a few posters toward Berkeley.</p>

<p>These hostile posters fall into a number of categories. One denigrates all aspects of Berkeley, refusing to acknowledge the many measures of its faculty’s superiority. This critic also seems to enjoy demeaning Berkeley undergrads, generalizing from the bottom quarter--those admitted with lesser grades and test scores to fulfill Berkeley’s state mandate to be accessible to a wide range of students. Another, reluctantly concedes the excellence of Berkeley’s graduate departments (often without acknowledging just how highly ranked virtually all of them are), but asserts that this has no bearing on undergraduates. He claims, with no evidence, that excellence in research is somehow antithetical to good undergraduate teaching. Finally, other critics cite the U.S. News rankings, evidently oblivious to their bias against public universities as well as their internal inconsistencies. Re private school bias consider the September 23, 1996 letter from Gerhard Caspar, President of Stanford, to the editor of U.S. News. He wrote: “Let me offer as prima facie evidence [of the absurdity of the rankings] two great public universities: the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor and the University of California-Berkeley. These clearly are among the very best universities in America—one could make a strong argument for either in the top half-dozen. Yet, in the last three years, the U.S. News formula has assigned them ranks that lead many readers to infer that they are second rate: Michigan 21-24-24, and Berkeley 23-26-27.” Re the internal inconsistency of the rankings, for years U.S. News ranked only two undergraduate departments, Business and Engineering, and had Berkeley in the top five in both. (One year first in Business and third in Engineering). At the same time the magazine placed Berkeley’s Ph.D. programs at the very top, yet ranked the school as a whole in the 20’s in the category “National Universities”.</p>

<p>With the forgoing digression I will write about my older son’s experience at Berkeley in the late 90’s. He grew up in Santa Cruz, California surfing once or twice a day year round. He was a good if unfocused high school student. His initial inclination was to go to UC San Diego, a fine school, where surf was available five minutes from class, but as parents we hoped he would attend Berkeley because of our sense that if offered opportunities few places could match (and where he could still surf, though in San Francisco 30 minutes away). </p>

<p>Belying the stereotype for public universities, our son had several small classes as a freshman, honors physics, a freshman philosophy seminar and a math class that was one step beyond calculus. He also had his share of large survey classes. By the end of the year he had no more sense of what he wanted to do than he had in high school.</p>

<p>In the Fall of his sophomore year he took introductory Chemistry. There were several hundred students in the class, what you would find at most major research universities, public or private, including Harvard (though not Chicago or Princeton). The professor was a renowned scientist. He was also an exceptional lecturer who regularly taught beginning Chemistry. His lectures were so outstanding, so inspirational, that they led my son to major in Chemistry.</p>

<p>There are College Insider posters who seem to believe that if you are a great researcher you must not be a good teacher. There is no basis for this and it makes no logical sense. If anything the opposite is often true. Top professors can infuse their lectures with the excitement and possibilities of new science and scholarship and this can be contagious. Berkeley is filled with such professors, many of whom actually seek out undergraduates. Consider Alex Filippenko, one of the top astrophysicists in the world. Filippenko regularly teaches a lower division introductory astronomy class that fulfills a breadth requirement and is therefore taken by many non-majors. He is a wildly popular lecturer. </p>

<p>In his junior year, now majoring in chemistry, my son received class credit for work in a professor’s lab. He was at the bottom of the totem pole, below post docs, grad students and senior undergrads. However, the professor was accessible to all the students, often discussing chemistry with my son in the lab or over a beer or pizza at off-campus gatherings. In addition to this professor’s mentoring, my son became close to a number of outstanding grad students. They were invaluable to his education teaching him, from a student’s perspective, much about what it takes to do independent research in chemistry. One of these grad students, a woman, was of particular help. She was an MIT graduate who had her pick of schools and who chose Berkeley not only because of the quality of the Chemistry Department, but because with its significant group of women professors she perceived it as particularly hospitable to women.</p>

<p>Given the stature of Berkeley’s Chemistry Department it seems that everybody who is anybody in the world of Chemistry comes through the Department at one time or another offering a lecture or seminar. Berkeley’s faculty of course does the same. My son attended many of these and some of his best learning came from them.</p>

<p>My son had a great upper division experience. He took a broad and difficult array of classes. Some were large. But others were seminars and in those he got to know the professors. In one small class, taught by a young woman budding superstar who won every award available to a young scientist, the professor approached my son in a campus common area with a cup of coffee and proceeded to shoot the breeze with him for half an hour. </p>

<p>At the same time my son received his bachelor’s degree in May, 1999, a top grad student in the department received his Ph.D. This grad student accepted an offer to teach at Harvard without going through the customary step of the post-doc. He knew my son had done well and recruited him to go East in his new lab.</p>

<p>I do not believe my son could have received a better education and better preparation for grad school at any other institution, public, private, Ivy, big or small. He went on to do exceptionally well as a grad student at Harvard, receiving several fellowships on the way to his June, 2004 Ph.D. One of these was a National Science Foundation Graduate Fellowship. His receipt of the NSF award led me to look at these fellowships more closely in the years 2000-2002. There are many measures of the excellence of Berkeley’s faculty—including the number of McArthur Fellows, Nobel Prize, National Medal of Science, Guggenheim Fellowship and National Science Foundation Young Investigators Award winners, and National Academy of Science and National Academy of Engineering members. However NSF winners are grad students. The NSF Fellowships are awarded to graduating seniors or first year grad students mostly in the traditional sciences and engineering, with a few in the social sciences. About 1000 were granted each year from 2000-2002. They are “portable” in the sense that a winner can take the fellowship to any school of his or her choosing. During these years four schools dominated the places where NSF winners chose to attend, together enrolling about 1/3 of the winners. These four were MIT, Berkeley, Stanford and Harvard. The numbers are astounding. For example in 2002 MIT had 112, Berkeley 93, Stanford 78 and Harvard 72. No other school even reached 30. I kid you not. Cornell was next with 27. Close to Cornell were Princeton with 23 and the University of Washington with 22. (Some others—Georgia Tech-19, Cal Tech-17, The University of Wisconsin-17, The University of Illinois-17, Chicago-15, Yale-12, Duke and Rice-11, Northwestern-8, Columbia-7 and Penn-4. Other University of California campuses did relatively well. Davis had 19, the medical center at UC San Francisco-17, UCLA-14, Santa Barbara-13 and San Diego-11.) As to the schools that produced the most undergrads who received NSF awards, Harvard had 42, MIT 35, Berkeley 34, Stanford 25, Cornell 23, Michigan 20, Texas-Austin 19, Illinois and Princeton 18 and Cal Tech 17. Everybody else followed.</p>

<p>If some of you have gotten this far and wonder why my younger son went to Cornell, that too has a Berkeley dimension and it provides yet another example of a great researcher open to all students. Briefly, from the time my younger son was little he was fascinated with herpetology, which developed into a desire to study evolutionary biology. When he was a freshman in high school he wrote to the country’s leading academic herpetologist, then a professor at Berkeley. This professor invited my son and me to his lab on a Saturday morning (Berkeley is 75 miles from our home) where he proceeded to spend two hours talking to my 14 year old boy and taking him through Berkeley’s vertebrate zoology collections. My son stayed in touch with this professor and when he left Berkeley for Cornell my son followed him (and had him as his advisor). By the way, Cornell is fantastic in biology.</p>

<p>Berkeley may not be for everybody. But for bright focused undergrads it offers extraordinary opportunities. It also happens to be in a great place. My older son loved the restaurants, clubs, and goings on in Berkeley and neighboring San Francisco.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Another, reluctantly concedes the excellence of Berkeley’s graduate departments (often without acknowledging just how highly ranked virtually all of them are), but asserts that this has no bearing on undergraduates. He claims, with no evidence, that excellence in research is somehow antithetical to good undergraduate teaching.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I have to believe that this was a shot at me, and I responded to this in another thread. Reference my response in post #414 here. </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=2054561#post2054561%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=2054561#post2054561&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>For undergrad there are a lot of problems at berkeley and that concerns about the bottom 3 quearters of people. Many people don't get into good or even decent graduate schools from berkeley because their GPA's were so horrible and also since many of them decide to stay in the cali area there are thousands of people with the same degree as you and pretty much it is nearly worthless. For undergraduate Berkeley is one of the worst moves a student can make. Unless, your a genius and I seriously mean genius to be in the top quarter at Berkeley your set for four years of hell. Just look at these rankings about colleges that send their kids to elite graduate schools in business, law, and medicine. berkeley ranks as number 41. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I have many problems with your post, premedwannabe. First of all, Berkeley does well on this particular study. 41 is pretty good. But really, I don't care about that study. Why? It's so criticized for so many reasons, it's nearly worthless. Bring that thing up anywhere on this site, people will criticize the report and its methodology. Secondly, you make up a statistic, then make up some cause of what you claim is a reason most can't get into a good or decent graduate school. In that I assuem you mean professional school. What are you comparing Berkeley to here? Compared to the very top schools, perhaps Berkeley has low placement, perhaps, but it fairs very well overall, compared to all schools. You claim a Berkeley degree is worthless. Based on what? You say Berkeley is one of the worst moves an undergraduates can do? For many people, it's the best that they can do, and some aren't able to. It is not for everyone, but that is a description that can go with any school. Also, how is it a terrible place if only geniuses are the ones doing well here? While I don't think much of this situation in your post is true, I would in many ways love to be surrounded by geniuses more so than I am (not that I am not around a few, or around many idiots).</p>

<p>All that I am trying to state is that there are a lot of discontent Berkeley students, who feel they got gipped in their education because classes were way to big. Even for a sate school and they couldn't get nearly any interaction with professors and they feel that if they had gone to other UC schools or private schools they could have done much better and had much more interaction with proffesors and gotten more out of their education. Also, their is a lot of competition in popular fields such as Chemistry and Pre-med. Overall, Michigan students and UCLA said that they were much happier with their undergraduate education rather than Berkeley students who for the most part were discontent, but I am talk about the schools as a whole and not just Chemistry and by the way I still have to visit Berkeley and its on my list of schools that I am considering, so I am not biased toward it in any way.</p>

<p>My last post was just pointing out the flaws in your previous post. You make some hefty claims that are very negative and I think many of them should be contextualized, which is what my last post was trying to do. </p>

<p>Wait, where exactly are you getting your sources for these happiness surveys? Many students could easily get interaction with professors. You talk to them before class. After class. Sometimes they rush in or have something right after. So be it. Office hours. Students choose not go. Does that mean they have trouble getting interaction? It means they decide, actively, not to get a major component of it, because as far as I know, almost every professor at every school has office hours for students. And feelings of some sorts are sometimes justified, but often primarily speculation. "If only I'd gone to UCLA, I'd get more interaction with profs." If I though that, I'd base it on what? People criticize other UCs in nearly the same way that they criticize Berkeley. </p>

<p>"Berkeley students were for the most part discontent." Where is that? What's your source?</p>

<p>And as to bias, we are all biased. You and I and the posting mom. And every person who knows anything. Do you mean that you are trying to ignore your "biases?"</p>

<p>I'm glad that you're considering Berkeley.</p>

<p>Im getting my sources from people on the UC-Berkeley boards and from a math teacher from my school who went to Berkeley for grad school recently and graduated around 2002 and this is what he has heard from undergrads who he talked to, taught as a teaching assistant, and viewed. So I would say the second source at least is decent.</p>

<p>The sources are alright, although the math teacher's experience probably best encompasses math majors and some other peoples experiences. CC people are of a particular type as well. But statements like "For undergraduate Berkeley is one of the worst moves a student can make." are sort of extreme.</p>

<p>"During these years four schools dominated the places where NSF winners chose to attend, together enrolling about 1/3 of the winners. These four were MIT, Berkeley, Stanford and Harvard. For example in 2002 MIT had 112, Berkeley 93, Stanford 78 and Harvard 72. No other school even reached 30. I kid you not. Cornell was next with 27. Close to Cornell were Princeton with 23 and the University of Washington with 22. (Some others—Georgia Tech-19, Cal Tech-17, The University of Wisconsin-17, The University of Illinois-17, Chicago-15, Yale-12, Duke and Rice-11, Northwestern-8, Columbia-7 and Penn-4."</p>

<p>i would think that you need to divide the number of scholarship recipients per school by the number of undergraduates enrolled in a school (or by size of 1st year class) -- UCB has a whooping 23 thousand undergrads overall, while MIT has 4 thousand undergrads and Caltech has less than 1 thousand -- if you divide these number you will see than UC Berkeley is getting a significantly lower number NSF scholarship recipients per entire undergraduate population (or per freshman class size)</p>

<p>-higher in absolute terms but lower in comparison to other schools</p>