<p>Hey guys,</p>
<p>well, its coming down to the wire, and I need some help. Of course, I turned to the best possible people for some advice. I'm really stuck on the wire between these two schools. I'm looking at something around International Studies/Political Science maybe, with possible law school in the future. Chicago is almost twice the expense, but has an awesome undergrad education. If you guys have any advice, I'd really appreciate anything. Thanks!</p>
<p>go to chicago. i turned in my SIR for berkeley and i'm regretting it already... chicago.... how i shall miss thee...
i don't know if i'm going to sound crazy saying this, but i actually think that going to berkeley may be better for getting into law/grad school. i mean, sure chicago has great profs and you'll probably be able to get wonderful recs, but my main concern was the type of ppl who attend chicago. it seems that chicago is full of students who truly have a passion for learning and academics. this isn't a bad thing, but the competition which arises from it scares me. i'm not saying that berkeley isn't competative (cause it sure as heck is!), but for me i was choosing the better of two evils. either work my but off in chicago and come out with a miniscule gpa, a deflated ego and no self-esteem, or work my but off at cal and come out with a more decent gpa... i hope....hahaha. anyways, best of luck deciding, and i hope this helped you somehow...</p>
<p>as you'll learn over the next year, maintaining a high GPA at berkeley is enormously difficult</p>
<p>Chicago will provide a more intimate environment by default. But if you seek it out, you will get the same amount (or more) of personal attention at Berkeley. However, that might not be very true for the HUGE poli sci department. I highly recommend the history department - among the best departments as far as teaching is concerned according to many Cal undergrads. </p>
<p><a href="http://history.berkeley.edu/%5B/url%5D">http://history.berkeley.edu/</a></p>
<p>"Berkeley undergraduates have rated the history department substantially higher than most other departments in a comprehensive survey recently released by Vice Provost Christina Maslach. The gap between history and other comparable departments was the most striking in what is perhaps the most important question on the survey, asking the degree of satisfaction with "quality of faculty instruction." No less than 82% of the students surveyed at the end of the last academic year reported a high degree of satisfaction, which was the highest in the Social Science Division. Anthropology was close behind with 81%, followed by Geography with 78%, and then by Psychology and Sociology, both at 72%."</p>
<p>"In several other important categories, too, history led the Division in degree of satisfaction reported. This was true for "overall academic experience," "overall Campus experience," "opportunities for research experience," and "faculty access outside class." Historys top ranking in this last category is especially noteworthy because it indicates that in the crucial matter of student access to their teachers, a whopping 69% reported a high degree of satisfaction while comparable departments lagged well behind (Sociology 58%, Anthropology 48%, Political Science 47%, Economics 39%, and Psychology 38%)."</p>
<p>I was almost in the same boat as you a few weeks ago, trying to decide between Berkeley and U of Chicago. I chose Berkeley.</p>
<p>Why? Well, for me personally, Berkeley is an immensely better fit for my personality and ideals for a college experience. When I got accepted into Chicago, I was almost certain that I would go there... however a 3-day visit to Chicago changed all that. Coming from southern California, the Chicago area was a huge step down from what I was used to. It seemed stale and boring. Don't get me wrong, Im sure theres a lot to do there, but no where near the same amount of things as there would be at Berkeley (at least within a much closer proximity). The Chicago campus was beautiful, but felt dead to me. I was there on Sunday - Tuesday, so I got to see it on both a weekend and during class time. I dormed with a few students in Max Pav for the overnight program, and all we did was hang out in the dorm all night (I even asked about one of the frat parties but my host frowned, telling me they were usually really crappy). Overall, I just got a very very layed-back feeling from all the kids I talked to. It was nice, but lacked the excitement I would want to be at least some-what present in a college environment. And to be honest, the classes that I sat in on were nothing special... decent but did not live up to the stereotypes associated with Chicago teaching. Also, on a side note, the rumors ARE true (at least from what I saw during my three days there)... the squirrels are cuter than the girls =/</p>
<p>By the time I left, I was back to feeling 50-50. Going to Cal day changed all that. I had allready visited Cal last spring, so I had a general idea of what to expect... and I was still very thoroughly impressed. The campus and surrounding city was bustling with life, unlike in Chicago where on campus nothing seemed to be going on, and off campus I was worried about crime (it was pretty shady a few blocks beyond the permiter of campus). Students were everywhere supporting their organizations with heavy enthusiasm and all. In Chicago there was a club fair that made me feel like I was signing up for highschool clubs again -_-. The lectures during cal day were also very impressive... the teachers that I saw were much more interested than those at Chicago. Granted, it was a bias selection... but wouldn't that apply to the ones at Chicago as well? </p>
<p>Overall, Chicago and Berkeley just have completely different atmospheres. To me, Berkeley seems to be an upbeat place where academics are still highly valued but won't completly take over your life. Berkeley has football and basketball... Chicago has ultimate frizbee. </p>
<p>Have you visited both places? Where are you from, what are you like? Both schools offer an amazing place to learn, it just depends on what you're looking for in your undergraduate experience. Hope this helped.</p>
<p>jpb, can't you still go to Uchicago? I think you can sign two SIRs.</p>
<p>hey juba,</p>
<p>I'm basically like you, a kid from socal who wants an awesome time in college. But i also realize that academics is basically the reason for going. I just wish the two could kinda merge...ya know. but i have visited both actually and i got the same vibes from both. i'm just stuck at wondering whether I want the highly academic experience at uchicago or the social experience at berkeley.</p>
<p>Juba, reading your post was incredibly surreal. I could have written the whole thing word for word myself. (Except the squirrels part, I actually thought the girls at Chicago were pretty attractive.) </p>
<p>I was thrilled with the campus aesthetics at Chicago. I was okay with the fact that Chicago food was supremely mediocre and Shoreland was run down. I was not so okay with the Econ class where no one answered the prof's questions or the European Civ class where I dozed off from boredom. I was incredibly disappointed with the lack of what was supposed to be Chicago's trademark: intellectual vitality. In fact, there was no intensity of any kind at the campus at all. I didn't expect students to be bursting with school spirit or having rigorously erudite conversations constantly, but are a few jokey, self-aware references to Kant or Freud or Newton in inane conversations too much to ask? If you're leaning towards Chicago because of the love for learning that's supposedly prevalent and the image that it's Uncommon App constructs of it, I think you might be disappointed. I'm having a hard time reconciling the Chicago I fell in love with and the Chicago I saw at my overnight stay. I might have hung out with the wrong people or something, but there's definitely doubt now.</p>
<p>Immediately following that, I went to Cal's OSP not expecting much, but was blown away. The excitement and hustle of the atmosphere. The many people wearing Cal gear. The classes that didn't seem impersonal or uninteresting though there must have been 400 or so people in them. The comparative variety of food and shininess of dorms. The hippie street vendors, the indie movie theaters, the eclectic restaurants, the vintage shops, the 59 cent milk tea, the oddly endearing crazy hobo people. </p>
<p>My input is that Chicago's academic spectacularity seems overrated and Berkeley is where it's at. However, in light of the fact that I only got a brief taste of each and still can't let go of the reputation and idealized vision of the U of C myself, the validity my blathering becomes questionable.</p>
<p>At least your honest about your impressions. Your description of the lack of intellectual vigour could just as easily be applied to many of Berkeley's classes as well.</p>
<p>Yeah, I guess it depends on your luck and what class you were in.</p>
<p>"I'm basically like you, a kid from socal who wants an awesome time in college. But i also realize that academics is basically the reason for going. I just wish the two could kinda merge..."</p>
<p>THEY DO MERGE at Berkeley, in one wonderful and unique confluence! </p>
<p>There is a Chicago, and then some within Berkeley, in the faculty, the students, the cultural environment, be it on campus and all around. There is spectacular beauty and very simple one, all around, whether you're reading Derrida under a redwood tree by Strawberry Creek or whether you're watching the awesome sight of the big orange globe setting through the Golden Gate on the steps while the Campanile carillon tolls overhead. (How many campuses in the world do you know where students spontaneously applaud sunsets from dorm roofs or campus terrasses?) There are many, many more divine moments which will complement and extend your intellectual curiosity, those cherished "only in Berkeley" moments, moments that will stay with you for the rest of your life. There is also of course a great window on the world, a window with many frames, be it on miles and miles of library shelves, in the insights and thoughts of the top faculty, in your interactions with your fellow students, in the countless cultural events or around one of countless great tables in a meal shared with good company. </p>
<p>If you chose to go to Berkeley, you will be horrified at the fact that you came so close to not going there.</p>
<p>CalX said "If you chose to go to Berkeley, you will be horrified at the fact that you came so close to not going there."</p>
<p>I think my son would agree with this statement. His choice last year came down to Chicago and Berkeley. I favored Chicago for him, even though it would have cost us a lot more. I'd fallen in love with Chicago's image of intellectual rigor and quirkiness and thought it the perfect match. I'd read the dean's opening convocation comments on the web and actually cried to think my son could go to a school where learning is so exhalted. He did an oncampus interview and an overnight there and we all came away thinking Chicago was the perfect school for him. </p>
<p>Then he got into Berkeley and visited and that was it. His top choice, for all of the reasons CalX and deusex and juba related above, became Cal. I still, even as we dropped him off in August, wondered if he'd made a mistake.</p>
<p>Fast forward to now. Cal is the single best decision he ever made. Everyone who knows him agrees. He is entirely happy with the level of academic rigor (batman, he's also polysci and possibly philosophy major and will go to law school), with his contact with professors, with life on and off campus. </p>
<p>Look up some of my posts (in fact go back a year and see how I anguished and gushed over Chicago) and you can read about his experiences this year at Cal, which have been phenomenal. I just talked to him last night on the phone, for example. He called as he was walking out of the Bancroft Library (or what serves as the Bancroft since it's being renovated). He has a paper due today for his California history class (an upper div. class). The topic he decided on, if I can remember correctly, is how the California legislature drafted laws regarding slavery and free blacks during the ten years between statehood and the Civil War. He had been looking at original journals from state lawmakers from 140 years ago. He said another guy there was looking at some original Don Quixote. They take 24 students at time in this part of the library and carry out the manuscripts to you. This is original research. He's a first-year student. </p>
<p>Outside of the classroom, his life is even better. This weekend he must choose between attending a retreat for his pre-law fraternity (which he is helping to found, first chapter in the nation) or the Democratic State Convention in Sacramento. Last weekend he was in SF for the fraternity inititation. He brought a gorgeous girl, also a poly sci major, (just got the pics last night) as his guest. He's sat across from Phil Angelides and Steve Westly, both running for governor. He's had his picture taken with John Edwards and Gray Davis. He's asked Newt Gingrich if he's running for president. He saw Dick Cheney speak. He met Michael Chabon, my favorite novelist. I could name drop a lot more but I'll stop. The purpose is not to brag about my son (he's just a typical Cal student) but to say that if you are interested in politics, especially in California, the opportunities to further that interest and to make serious, valuable political connections are at Berkeley.</p>
<p>I think UChicago is special. I love that school. Maybe he'll go for law school. But Cal is amazingly diverse, and if you are a person who is unafraid to plunge into a vibrant, high-octane, sometimes messy and maddening, but ultimately intoxicating university, I recommend Cal.</p>
<p>Also, batman7, check out this Cal senior, also interested in international relations. He's had a great time at Cal. </p>
<p>Again, most if not all of these things you can do at other universities, and probably have an easier time. The only exception is meeting with California leaders, but who cares? California's governance is idiotic and none of California's politicians have a shot at the national level because they are too liberal. There is nothing offered at Berkeley for the most part that you can't get elsewhere and have a better time.</p>
<p>UChicago, there is a bigger chance you will regret if you come to Berkeley.</p>
<p>Yes, CantSilence Truth aka Polite Antagonis, most good universities are launching grounds and do provide many of the same opportunities for travel or research or friendships or dating. At Cal you need to be assertive in order to take advantage of them but it's certainly not been difficult for my son and his friends to do so. And, unlike you, they are having an absolute blast.</p>
<p>Good for them, but as I've pointed out, everytign at Berkeley you have to do for yourself. Its not worth it for an oos. As an in-stater the OP has a harder decision, so a decision would probably come to their majors and the relative difference between the academics at Berkeley and Uchicago.</p>
<p>To the OP, you might be interested in the lengthy "discussion" among parents on CC that I had last year when S was deciding between Chicago and Berkeley. The vote was fairly lopsided, but great reasoning from parents was presented for choosing either school. YMMV but here it is if you are interested enough:</p>
<p>Why does CantSilenceTruth have such a hatred towards Berkeley? It seems like I can't read a single post of his without seeing Cal purposely dragged through the mud...</p>
<p>I know, although he had a positive one today. He seem to think that Berkeley was a waste of his time and money, hates what the thinks California culture is, the students in general (inferior to him), anything further away from him politically than moderate, and thinks that he would have been happier and better off going to Duke or UT Austin (and thinks Cal screwed him out of Harvard, Yale, Stanford, maybe a few other top law schools). It's Berkeley's fault!!!</p>
<p>He likes the attention, I guess. If you look up the posts from his other screen name (Polite Antagonis) you will find the same pervasive negative attitude and a desire to slam Cal students at every opportunity, calling them untalented and unmotivated over and over again. He's a bitter senior apparently, and while Cal is not nirvana (well except to some kids, I guess), it's not the hell he's made it out to be. I feel sorry for him (or her, as the case may be), but the schtick does get old, too.</p>