Best for pre-med?

<p>First i live in virginia. That being said i got accepted into four colleges</p>

<p>Rutgers (newark and camden) (NJ)
Randolph-macon college (VA) ($10,500 scholarship -- yearly)
VCU - Virginia commonwealth university (VA)
Shenandoah University (VA)</p>

<p>I hear a lot of good things abotu rutgers but is it the best for a pre-med/bio major? Which school do you think is the best for this track? Also, is it possible to go to the new bruinswick campus even though i wasn't accepted there?</p>

<p>thanks for all your help .</p>

<p>The best place for you to go is the place where you have the best fit. Which school are you going to have the most academic, social, physical, and emotional success.</p>

<p>well...i liked the VCU campus...i love the city but rutgers -- newark is also a city campus and i like new jersey too. </p>

<p>i was considering randolph-macon or shenandoah because they are small schools with less distractions so i could concentrate on keeping my grades up and getting into a good medical school. Shenandoah didn't give me a scholarship and they are private so i think that's on the bottom of my list.</p>

<p>what i really want to know is if rutgers has a good pre-med program vs any of those other colleges... </p>

<p>To make my decision i have to factor in the educational aspect so based on education, is rutgers a better school?</p>

<p>I always thought VCU was the best for pre-med...</p>

<p>It also has a med school.</p>

<p>I'd say first follow BRM's advice.</p>

<p>Then look at the med school acceptance rate. I really believe that the acceptance rate is one of the most important, if not the most important, indicators of a solid pre-med program.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I really believe that the acceptance rate is one of the most important, if not the most important, indicators of a solid pre-med program.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Christopher Newport University -- 100%. Stanford -- 75%.</p>

<p>What BDM is saying is that acceptance rate is a BS statistic. It tells you NOTHING about anything. </p>

<p>You know how people say "there are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies and statistics"? This is one of those times.</p>

<p>I am not too familiar with any of the schools listed, but vaguely remember hearing that VCU allows juniors to apply for the med school and possibly finish a year early. I am not 100% sure about it and if the program exists it will be incredibly competitive, but it is always something to consider.</p>

<p>I'd pick rutgers, but that's because I'd rather live in NJ than VA</p>

<p>Instead of "solid," I should have really said "most effective in getting their graduates into medical school." Yes, Stanford might have a very strong premed program, but if you're not getting the grades, the quality of your school can only help so much. In short, you should goto school where you have the best shot of getting into med school i.e. high acceptance rate.</p>

<p>The problem is that some schools only let their top students apply, thus manipulating their statistics. If anything, a high acceptance rate from a subpar college should be considered a big red flag.</p>

<p>CCRunner, you continue to miss the point.</p>

<p>You're right that a person who is not getting the grades is receiving little benefit by going to a higher quality school. </p>

<p>However, the place where one has the best shot of getting into medical school is not the place with the high acceptance rate. That tells you NOTHING about the quality of pre-med advising, the opportunities available for research/volunteering/campus involvement/leadership, or any of the other important little things that matter when picking a school. Sure it might be an aggregate of those things, but as has been said acceptance rate is an easily manipulated statistic. The schools with really high acceptance rates either are phenomenal, or (more likely) pre-screen their applicants and only let those students are virtual locks for acceptance apply.</p>

<p>But the key is that acceptance rate tells you nothing about how well any single individual student is doing or going to do. Environment is key and if you hate your experience somewhere it's hard to do your best.</p>

<p>The other thing is that there are many other external factors that play a role in the acceptance rate that having nothing to due with the qualities of the actual school. For example, Stanford and Berkeley, no one doubts the quality of education that one will receive at these places, but I think it is pretty apparent that location plays a big role in their surprisingly low acceptance rates. Being in CA, students at these schools are much more likely to be applying to only CA medical schools which are ultra-competitive (b/c of the # of applicants). Even if they aren't applying only to med schools in CA, those schools are going to make up a greater portion of their list. Simply move those schools to other parts of the country so students are applying to less competitive medical schools on average, and the acceptance rate for both schools would likely shoot up. It doesn't make sense to put a high priority on a stat so easily manipulated by things that aren't even controllable by the schools. </p>

<p>The place where a student has the best chance of getting into medical school is, and always will be, the place where they have the best chance of success. This means it's an entirely personal decision. If you go to a school with a 98% acceptance rate, that rate doesn't mean much if you're part of that 2% that didn't get in.</p>

<p>I see what you are saying and I concede that what I said was pretty nonsensical when I think about it now.</p>

<p>
[quote]
What BDM is saying is that acceptance rate is a BS statistic. It tells you NOTHING about anything.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Come, BigRedmed, that's a bit too strong, don't you think? I agree with you that admissions statistics are not completely definitive. But to say that they mean * absolutely nothing * at all, I can't go there. </p>

<p>What I think you mean to say is that admissions statistics don't mean as much as some people seem to think they do. That, I can agree with. Admissions statistics have to be adjusted for the other factors that you named, in particular, for the manipulations of which you speak. But the statistics certainly don't mean absolutely nothing at all. They mean * something *. What you can do is attempt to hold those factors constant, or otherwise correct for them, in order to remove the distortions of the statistics. But the statistics still do mean something. Even a distorted statistic means something. </p>

<p>
[quote]
But the key is that acceptance rate tells you nothing about how well any single individual student is doing or going to do. Environment is key and if you hate your experience somewhere it's hard to do your best.</p>

<p>The other thing is that there are many other external factors that play a role in the acceptance rate that having nothing to due with the qualities of the actual school. For example, Stanford and Berkeley, no one doubts the quality of education that one will receive at these places, but I think it is pretty apparent that location plays a big role in their surprisingly low acceptance rates. Being in CA, students at these schools are much more likely to be applying to only CA medical schools which are ultra-competitive (b/c of the # of applicants). Even if they aren't applying only to med schools in CA, those schools are going to make up a greater portion of their list. Simply move those schools to other parts of the country so students are applying to less competitive medical schools on average, and the acceptance rate for both schools would likely shoot up. It doesn't make sense to put a high priority on a stat so easily manipulated by things that aren't even controllable by the schools. </p>

<p>The place where a student has the best chance of getting into medical school is, and always will be, the place where they have the best chance of success. This means it's an entirely personal decision. If you go to a school with a 98% acceptance rate, that rate doesn't mean much if you're part of that 2% that didn't get in.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, let me tell you a story. One of the other posters here, molliebatmit, had a wonderful time at MIT, and got into many of the top PhD programs in biology, and is at Harvard now. MIT was a great fit for her where she enjoyed great success (where her success was defined by getting into a top bio PhD program, which she did).</p>

<p>But she got only a 3.4/4 GPA at MIT. I say 'only', because while naturally getting a 3.4/4 is a tremendous achievement at MIT, it still doesn't make her very competitive as far as premed goes. And she freely concedes that, with those grades, she probably would not have gotten into any of the top med-schools, had she applied. She might have gotten into some no-name schools, but even that's rather questionable. </p>

<p>So here's a person who chose a school that fit her like a glove, she achieved great success there, and she STILL wouldn't have been highly competitive for med-schools. While we'll never know this, I strongly suspect that had she gone to another school which is grade-inflated, like Harvard, Stanford, or Yale, she would have gotten higher grades and thus had become more competitive for the top med-schools, * even if * those other schools had not fit her personality as well as MIT did. </p>

<p>The sad truth of the matter is that med-school admissions are a game. If you just don't have what med-schools are looking for (i.e. high grades), you're not going to be competitive. Med-schools don't really care * why * you don't have what they're looking for. For example, if you get low grades at a difficult school like MIT or Caltech, they don't really care that you went to a difficult school. All they see is that you don't have the grades they're looking for. </p>

<p>What that means is that sometimes the school that fits you best is * not * really the best place for you to go for premed. Again, I think molliebatmit would concede that MIT would not have been the best place for her to go if she had wanted to go to med-school, even though MIT fit her so well. </p>

<p>Sometimes (sadly) you gotta do things that make you look good to med-schools, even if it doesn't fit you well. To give you an example of that, some people like taking highly advanced coursework because they just want to challenge themselves and learn, even if it means not getting top grades. But, sadly, that's precisely what you * don't * want to do if you're a premed. You might be the kind of guy who wants to take Super-Advanced Quantum Chromodynamics just because you like it, even if it means getting a B grade, or worse. But when it comes to applying to med-school, the adcoms aren't going to care that your course was extremely difficult. All they're going to see is that you didn't get a top grade. In other words, for the purposes of med-school admissions, it's better to not take a difficult course at all than to take it and get a mediocre grade, even if you just want to take the course because you're interested in learning. In other words, med-school adcoms basically punish people for challenging themselves. Sad but true. But what that means is that sometimes you have to do things that don't really suit you, but that make you look good for med-schools.</p>

<p>I have quibbles that are mild to moderate.</p>

<p>1.)
[quote]
it's better to not take a difficult course at all than to take it and get a mediocre grade

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes, but medical schools do evaluate coursework within the limits of what they can know, and it's better to take a hard course and do well than to take an easy course and do well. So avoiding challenges throughout will NOT be a good idea. You just have to make quite sure that you can manage it acceptably.</p>

<p>Of course, there are always ways to pretend like you're taking a challenging courseload without actually doing so -- one popular choice is to take lots and lots of easy classes. Another is to take independent studies. Medical schools never quite seem to catch on that these are actually much easier than normal classes, or at least they were at my school. (I never took any.)</p>

<hr>

<p>2.)
[quote]
But she got only a 3.4/4 GPA at MIT. I say 'only', because while naturally getting a 3.4/4 is a tremendous achievement at MIT, it still doesn't make her very competitive as far as premed goes.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Part of it, though, is that MIT is an exceptional example in a few ways. For one thing, MIT is the second most grade-deflated school in the country, behind only the Naval Academy. So any broader analysis using MIT is, to invent a word, "in-trapolating" in a way that may not be fair.</p>

<p>More importantly, however, MIT students are actually penalized, GPA-wise, for having attended MIT. A 3.4 from Duke, Stanford, or Penn is a quite competitive GPA for mid-tier medical schools. (i.e. not USN's 3-10, but 15-20 are quite safe and 1-2 are very difficult to predict regardless).</p>

<p>After all, the mean GPA from these schools among their admitted students is roughly a 3.5 anyway. (Penn, I've heard secondhand, might be in the 3.35 range!)</p>

<p>But MIT kids have a mean GPA for admitted students of 3.7, so 3.4 starts to look low by comparison.</p>

<p>In other words, grade deflation is not the only or even the largest factor that makes MIT a tough place to be a premed.</p>

<p>For what it's worth, I'm currently enrolled in a medical school where my BCPM GPA at time of application was ~.4 GPA points below the median despite ORM status. There are situations in which low GPAs can and are "forgiven".</p>

<hr>

<p>3.) Preempt: extracurriculars are not completely defined by grade availability. Deflated schools should, theoretically, prompt their students to work harder on their schoolwork at the expense of their EC's, but good advising would recognize this as the more important flaw and make sure students had a firm understanding of what kind of EC's were necessary and available.</p>

<p>In other words, I argue that the overcompensation we see from adcoms (MIT students have admitted-student GPAs and MCAT scores higher than the national average) cannot be explained by EC's alone. After all, after MIT kids equal, say, the Duke kids in terms of GPA, they should stop focusing on GPAs and start pushing for EC's.</p>

<p>In other words, while it might be TRUE that grade deflation causes EC's to diminish, good advising and campus culture would have counteracted that effect earlier than we actually see with MIT kids.</p>

<p>Sakky, I understand what you are saying, and agree with your statement about med schools not particularly caring why you don't have what they are looking for. </p>

<p>However, I have a problem with you focusing solely on GPA. BDM really stole my thunder by mentioning extracurriculars and MCAT scores. But those things are part of the reason why I'm always careful to make sure I mention that a school must be the best fit for you in so many different areas. Even beyond EC's and MCAT scores, interviews, personal statements and letters of recommendation are all part of the decision to admit. An interview can go a long ways in both directions depending on how you are able to "sell"(or not) yourself, your accomplishments, your shortcomings, and your motivations.</p>

<p>Second, I really believe that my role on these boards is to provide insight to the pre-med experience/process that helps students get into ANY medical school because that is accomplishment enough as it is, regardless of rank (if you don't believe me ask someone who couldn't get into their state public medical school). I'm really not concerned about getting students into "top" medical schools. I'm also, in light of the extremely high attrition rate for pre-meds, trying to provide advice that is aware of that fact, and isn't detrimental to a student if they decide medicine is no longer right for them. </p>

<p>Further, I don't think your story really demonstrated that acceptance rates tell you much about a school, and if it did (and I'm just missing the point) then certainly not enough to really use that statistic as a part of choosing where to attend college. </p>

<p>In sum, I have a method to my madness, a core group of beliefs about the pre-med process, the ultimate goals and my role as a member of this board. Perhaps you feel differently, and that's okay (I'm certainly willing to listen), but I stand by my previous posts in this thread at this point.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Yes, but medical schools do evaluate coursework within the limits of what they can know, and it's better to take a hard course and do well than to take an easy course and do well. So avoiding challenges throughout will NOT be a good idea. You just have to make quite sure that you can manage it acceptably.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Within the limits of what they know, eh? Well, evidently, they don't know much. And part of it seems to be that they just don't WANT to know much. See below for more.</p>

<p>And besides, your notion of being able to 'handle challenges', again, assumes certain behaviors implicitly. I can think of certain graduate-level courses in which * nobody * got an A, not the graduate students, not the few undergrads who took it, not anybody. Graduate students generally tend not to care very much about their grades anyway, because their real goal is to learn something that they can use in their research (after all, nobody is going to be placed in an tenure-track assistant professor position because of good grades - that decision is based on the quality of your research) . And the few undergrads who were in the class also just wanted to learn, as they were on the road to becoming graduate students themselves. Hence, even if you could 'manage' this particular course successfully, you would still probably end up with at best a B. </p>

<p>I remember reading about the famous economist/sociol scientist Thomas Sowell talking about his time as a PhD economics student at Chicago and how he stated that it was quite common for Chicago PhD students to fail many graduate-level economics courses. At the time, you didn't need to pass any actual courses in order to actually get your Econ PhD from Chicago at the time (although I'm sure that's changed now). All you needed to do was write an acceptable dissertation. Courses existed basically as a way for you to be challenged by the profs, and since this was Chicago, these profs were arguably the best econ profs in the world. If even the PhD students were failing those courses left and right, I'm sure that undergrads would have been failing them too, had they been taking them. </p>

<p>But med-schools don't care about that. They'll just see a bunch of failing grades and conclude that this candidate is no good. It wouldn't matter if everybody, including the graduate students, also failed the same course. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Of course, there are always ways to pretend like you're taking a challenging courseload without actually doing so -- one popular choice is to take lots and lots of easy classes. Another is to take independent studies. Medical schools never quite seem to catch on that these are actually much easier than normal classes, or at least they were at my school. (I never took any.)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The other trick I've found is to just do 'research' for credit. Not ony are you then building up your research credentials, but research credit generally translates into a string of easy A's, as long as you do the work. </p>

<p>Again, med-schools could find all this out. I'm convinced they just don't want to know. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Part of it, though, is that MIT is an exceptional example in a few ways. For one thing, MIT is the second most grade-deflated school in the country, behind only the Naval Academy. So any broader analysis using MIT is, to invent a word, "in-trapolating" in a way that may not be fair.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm intentionally utilizing a corner case to illustrate my point. You may recall in math that one way to disprove a theorem is to find one example (usually a corner case) that violates the theorem. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Part of it, though, is that MIT is an exceptional example in a few ways. For one thing, MIT is the second most grade-deflated school in the country, behind only the Naval Academy. So any broader analysis using MIT is, to invent a word, "in-trapolating" in a way that may not be fair.</p>

<p>More importantly, however, MIT students are actually penalized, GPA-wise, for having attended MIT. A 3.4 from Duke, Stanford, or Penn is a quite competitive GPA for mid-tier medical schools. (i.e. not USN's 3-10, but 15-20 are quite safe and 1-2 are very difficult to predict regardless).</p>

<p>After all, the mean GPA from these schools among their admitted students is roughly a 3.5 anyway. (Penn, I've heard secondhand, might be in the 3.35 range!)</p>

<p>But MIT kids have a mean GPA for admitted students of 3.7, so 3.4 starts to look low by comparison.</p>

<p>In other words, grade deflation is not the only or even the largest factor that makes MIT a tough place to be a premed.</p>

<p>For what it's worth, I'm currently enrolled in a medical school where my BCPM GPA at time of application was ~.4 GPA points below the median despite ORM status. There are situations in which low GPAs can and are "forgiven".</p>

<hr>

<p>3.) Preempt: extracurriculars are not completely defined by grade availability. Deflated schools should, theoretically, prompt their students to work harder on their schoolwork at the expense of their EC's, but good advising would recognize this as the more important flaw and make sure students had a firm understanding of what kind of EC's were necessary and available.</p>

<p>In other words, I argue that the overcompensation we see from adcoms (MIT students have admitted-student GPAs and MCAT scores higher than the national average) cannot be explained by EC's alone. After all, after MIT kids equal, say, the Duke kids in terms of GPA, they should stop focusing on GPAs and start pushing for EC's.</p>

<p>In other words, while it might be TRUE that grade deflation causes EC's to diminish, good advising and campus culture would have counteracted that effect earlier than we actually see with MIT kids.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, frankly, part of it is something that we haven't talked much about, but which is that MIT students disproportionately don't really "need" medical school. The majority of MIT students are engineers, and hence, have very nice and decently paying jobs as engineers awaiting them. Hence, they may not feel the need to apply to a bunch of no-name, low-ranked med-schools as much as somebody coming out of, say, Duke, with an art history degree. Let's face it. If you can't get into graduate school, what are you going to do with an art history degree? Hence, it wouldn't surprise me in the least that MIT students apply to, on average, higher-ranking med-schools, and obviously these med-schools require higher grades. </p>

<p>But secondly, I think you hit upon another part of the problem - it's the culture. The truth is, the MIT campus culture encourages introversion. It encourages quirkiness and tech-geekiness that I doubt translates well to med-school interviews, or doing a bunch of EC's that require "regular" social skills. </p>

<p>And that gets back to what I've been saying before. Just choosing a school for fit may not help you get into medical school. In fact, it may actually be BAD for you. For example, if you're quiet and antisocial, MIT may fit you very well. But that's precisely what will hurt you if you later apply to med-school. What you would REALLY want is to go to a school that forces you to be social and extroverted, even if that doesn't really fit you, because that kind of school will help you go to med-school.</p>

<p>But back to the case of molliebatmit. She is highly unlike most other MIT students. She has extracurriculars as far as the eye can see. Her problem isn't the extracurriculars. Her problem is her grades.</p>

<p>
[quote]
one way to disprove a theorem is to find one example (usually a corner case) that violates the theorem.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes, but we're not discussing a theorem. We're discussing a trend. And outliers do not prove or disprove trends.</p>

<p>
[quote]
For example, if you're quiet and antisocial, MIT may fit you very well. But that's precisely what will hurt you if you later apply to med-school. What you would REALLY want is to go to a school that forces you to be social and extroverted, even if that doesn't really fit you, because that kind of school will help you go to med-scool.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This, I certainly agree with.</p>

<p>
[quote]
However, I have a problem with you focusing solely on GPA. BDM really stole my thunder by mentioning extracurriculars and MCAT scores. But those things are part of the reason why I'm always careful to make sure I mention that a school must be the best fit for you in so many different areas. Even beyond EC's and MCAT scores, interviews, personal statements and letters of recommendation are all part of the decision to admit. An interview can go a long ways in both directions depending on how you are able to "sell"(or not) yourself, your accomplishments, your shortcomings, and your motivations.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>See above. Like I said above, just because a school 'fits' you to a T doesn't mean that it's a good choice for you. That's because people sometimes like things that are not good for them (at least, from a med-school admissions standpoint). Certain schools will allow you to indulge your worst impulses. For example, in the case of MIT, if all you want to do is study for days on end and never talk to anybody, MIT will not only indulge you, MIT will actually ENCOURAGE you to do that. Don't get me wrong. The premed advisors probably won't encourage it. But the culture certainly can and will. After all, when you see lots of other students doing nothing but studying and behaving antisocially, you will tend to do nothing but study and behave antisocially. </p>

<p>MIT also has a certain way of pounding in humility into its students. Basically, MIT has a way of taking brilliant students and giving them work that is so difficult that they no longer think they are brilliant. They call it 'drinking from the firehose' - that maybe you were the top dog in high school, but we'll show you that you're really not that smart at all. MIT also has a certain attitude of not encouraging marketing and showmanship - believing that quality will 'out'. </p>

<p>But that is precisely the attitude you DON'T want when you're applying to med-school. You want to approach that process with great self-confidence. After 4 years of getting absolutely pounded on by your coursework, and of being told that boasting and self-promotion are uncouth, you may no longer have what it takes to sell yourself convincingly to a med-school. </p>

<p>I contrast this with the culture at Harvard, which almost encourages a sense of arrogance among its students. It's not surprising to me to find so many Harvard kids that are able to sell themselves very well. When you yourself think that you are great, it makes it easier to convince others that you are great. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Second, I really believe that my role on these boards is to provide insight to the pre-med experience/process that helps students get into ANY medical school because that is accomplishment enough as it is, regardless of rank (if you don't believe me ask someone who couldn't get into their state public medical school). I'm really not concerned about getting students into "top" medical schools. I'm also, in light of the extremely high attrition rate for pre-meds, trying to provide advice that is aware of that fact, and isn't detrimental to a student if they decide medicine is no longer right for them.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I also believe that getting into any med-school is a major accomplishment in its own right. But the truth is, other people don't think so. Right or wrong, they don't think so. I know plenty of people who won't go to med-school unless it's a top X school. I don't agree with them, but they do exist. I am convinced that many of these people exist at MIT - particularly engineers who know full well that they can get a nice engineering job, and so don't feel that they need to go to a no-name med-school. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Further, I don't think your story really demonstrated that acceptance rates tell you much about a school, and if it did (and I'm just missing the point) then certainly not enough to really use that statistic as a part of choosing where to attend college.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, I wasn't try to demonstrate that. I was simply stating that 'fit' is not always the best thing to go by. I'm sure that a lot of antisocial introverts would fit in quite nicely at MIT. But if they want to go to med-school, they shouldn't go to a place that will allow them to indulge their worst habits, even though it fits them.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Yes, but we're not discussing a theorem. We're discussing a trend. And outliers do not prove or disprove trends.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes, we're talking about trends. But then it's important to ascertain what REALLY causes the trend. What we can do is come up with more explanatory variables that provide a better trend fit. </p>

<p>I assert that fit is not the only thing that matters. It depends on what KIND of fit you're talking about. A place that fits you by encouraging you to indulge your worst habits is not a good place to get you into med-school.</p>