<p>What are the best undergraduate PreMed programs that will better prepare me for admission to medical schools such as Harvard, Duke, and the University of Pennsylvania? No one has really answered this question yet and I really want some input and if possible any websites that give more info. Thanks in advanced.
-Future Cardiologist</p>
<p>Wash U St. Louis has an <em>unbelievable</em> pre-med program. I was going to apply there if I didn't get into Penn.</p>
<p>I am going to say what I've always said about this question and say that the best premed program for you is the one that will maximize your chances of getting into med-school, or in the case of the OP, into one of the top medical schools (Harvard, Duke, Penn). </p>
<p>Now, I know what you're thinking. I just stated a tautology - the best premed program for you is which one will help you the most. Actually, it really isn't a tautology, for the following reasons.</p>
<p>The fact is, med-school admissions is not only extremely competitive (in that about half of all premeds around the country who apply to med-school get rejected from every single one they apply to), but also extremely grade-driven. Simply put, if you don't have high grades, then you won't be seriously considered. Your application will be thrown away before it ever gets read by a human being. </p>
<p>The upshot of this is that you should go to a premed program where you believe you will be able to get the top grades that med-schools demand. This is generally boils down to a combination of a school that has lots of grade inflation (for example, many of the Ivies, Stanford, etc.) and/or a school where you know you are clearly better than the average student, such that you will be able to dominate the classes. </p>
<p>This is why I take the admittedly controversial stand and say that many of the premed programs that people think are strong really aren't very good at all. For example, the premed programs at Johns Hopkins, MIT, Berkeley, and, yes, WUSL really aren't that good when you truly think about it. And I say that for one reason. The reality is that all of these schools are well known for harsh and rough grading, and that sort of thing absolutely kills you when it comes to med-school admission. Will a lot of premeds from these programs get into med-school? Sure, because those schools are top schools and have top-notch student bodies, and so their chances of getting into med-school were high to begin with. My point is that these programs do not really boost their students chances of getting into med-school, and in many cases actually hurt them, because of the harsh, competitive grading. What's the point of going to a supposedly 'elite' premed-program and then getting grades that are so low that you wind up not getting in anywhere? You probably would have been better off going to a 'non-elite' premed program and gotten high grades there. </p>
<p>Case in point, consider MIT. I think we would all agree that MIT is an extremely prominent school that is well known for tough grading and lots and lots of work. For those MIT premeds who apply to med-school, only about 75% of them actually get in to at least on med-school, which means that 25% get rejected from every single med-school they applied to. That's right, every single one. And these statistics doesn't even count those MIT students who want to go to med-school but know that their grades aren't good enough, so they don't even bother to apply. Furthermore, the GPA of the average MIT student who was admitted to med-school was a 3.7/4, and I think we all agree that pulling those kinds of grades is extremely difficult at a place like MIT. </p>
<p>Contrast that with the premeds at Princeton. I think nobody will seriously dispute that the average quality of students at Princeton is roughly about the same as that at MIT. I also think we would agree that MIT is probably a harder school than Princeton, in terms of grading and workload. So you would think that med-schools admissions committees would know this too and compensate accordingly (by demanding higher grades from Princeton premeds relative to MIT premeds, and by simply admitting a lower percentage of Princeton premeds than MIT premeds). Yet the data shows that about 90% of all Princeton premeds get admitted to med-school, compared to 75% at MIT. Furthermore, the average GPA of admitted Princeton premeds is about 3.4/4 to 3.5/4, which is significantly lower than the 3.7/4 average GPA of admitted MIT premeds. </p>
<p>To summarize, MIT and Princeton's student bodies are probably roughly equivalent academically, and MIT is a harder school that gives out significantly lower grades, and yet Princeton premeds get into med-school at a higher rate and with lower grades than do MIT premeds. Use Occam's Razor and I think you will draw the conclusion that MIT premeds are not only not helped by the harder workload and tougher grading at MIT, they may actually be getting hurt by it. And the bottom line conclusion is that MIT is not as good of a place to do premed than is Princeton, because MIT is less successful in getting its students into med-school - and for premed programs, ultimately that's all that really matters. If you're not boosting the chances of your students to get into med-school, then at the end of the day, you're not really a good premed program, despite what the rankings might say. The whole point of a premed program is, after all, to help students get into medical school. </p>
<p>I understand this is a controversial stance, which is why I've tried to back it with data. I don't have the statistics for the premed programs at WU or JHU on me, but I don't think it would substantially different from the MIT data, because I know that WU and JHU (especially JHU) are schools that have little if any grade inflation. In any case, I highly doubt that any of these schools have premed programs that are as successful in getting students into med-school than Princeton does (and by extension, also probably Harvard, Yale, and Stanford, for HYPS have about the same grade inflation). </p>
<p>The point is, if you are absolutely sure you want to be a doctor, then you want to go to a premed program that maximizes your chances of getting into med-school. The fact is, one of the hardest part about becoming a doctor, arguably the hardest part, is simply getting admitted into med-school in the first place. If you can't get in, then your medical career is over before it ever really started. What's the point of going to a 'prestige' pre-med program like JHU or WU or MIT and then discovering that you can't get into med-school? I can assure you that that 25% of MIT premeds who got rejected everywhere are seriously rethinking whether they should have gone to MIT at all, and more specifically, whether they'd be in med-school right now had they gone someplace else for premed. </p>
<p><a href="http://web.princeton.edu/sites/hpa/2004.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://web.princeton.edu/sites/hpa/2004.pdf</a></p>
<p>sakky: very insightful, thank you!</p>
<p>Would you say the same thing about Penn as you would about Princeton, sakky?</p>
<p>Penn? About the same as Princeton, although I don't think the grade inflation at Penn is nearly as widespread as at Princeton - and grade inflation is exactly what you want. Just keep in mind that if med-school adcoms want high grades, then that's what you are going to have to give them.</p>
<p>what would u say about cornell sakky?</p>
<p>Your a baby still, take it easy, get through your first year of high school---Have FUN!
you still have so much time to be looking into this, and ratings, standards,---ALL change every year keep abreast but don't stress yet!!!</p>
<p>Is Harvard the same as Princeton? In your opinion is Princeton's pre-med program easier than Wash U? Is it true that grading at borth Ivy's is A, B, or F? Thanks,</p>
<p>"So you would think that med-schools admissions committees would know this too and compensate accordingly (by demanding higher grades from Princeton premeds relative to MIT premeds, and by simply admitting a lower percentage of Princeton premeds than MIT premeds)." Sakky</p>
<p>Medical schools do compensate for students GPA based on the difficulty of the colleges they are attending. For example, most medical schools add .3 to Cornell University applicants. And almost 90% of the Cornell students with a 3.4/4.3 GPA are accepted to med schools. But i do agree that it is not easy to get a 3.4 in Cornell.</p>
<p>Which university do you guys think a 4.3 GPA, 1550 SAT scorer is suitable for and will succeed at for Pre-Med?</p>
<p>To the response with the mention of Cornell,</p>
<p>where did you hear the .3 given to Cornell Applicants?</p>
<p>Does pre-meds from top liberal art colleges, such as Swarthmore, Wellesley, etc., have better chances of being accepted into med school?</p>
<p>Reading many of the posts at CC, it seems this is true. Liberal art colleges have no or few grad students and are small in numbers, leaving a lot of opportunities for undergrads. Undergrads will have more opportunities in doing quality research in labs with their OWN professors, working as colleagues. More student-teacher interaction inside and outside the classroom. Assumingly, there will be no or few TA's teaching since most lac's require all profs to teachs and since there are no grad students to serve as TA's. So, better quality teaching(an ideal assumption). In addition, better advising will be given because of the small student-body.</p>
<p>
[quote]
For example, the premed programs at Johns Hopkins, MIT, Berkeley, and, yes, WUSL really aren't that good when you truly think about it. And I say that for one reason. The reality is that all of these schools are well known for harsh and rough grading, and that sort of thing absolutely kills you when it comes to med-school admission.
[/quote]
hrmm.. i don't know how accurate this is, but my jhu alumnus interviewer told me that med schools recognise the universities known for grade deflations. he said that a 3.0 in jhu would be regarded as equal in value to, say, a 3.5 in harvard. i hope he's right! he did make all the med schools he applied to, after all...</p>
<p>So then, Ali Wahab and kbpa, if it's really true that med-schools go around compensating premeds for the difficulty of their school, then why is it that MIT premeds who get admitted to med-school have an average gpa of 3.7/4? I don't think anybody here would dispute that MIT is an extremely difficult school, and yet med-schools still demand a very high GPA from the MIT premeds anyway. Why is that? It's either one of 3 options. #1 - MIT is actually a very easy school (I wonder if anybody is going to dare to advocate this option). #2 - MIT is a difficult school, but the premed adcoms don't know that (and yet we all know it, so if we know it, why wouldn't the adcom know it?). Or #3 - there really isn't much grade compensation for attending a difficult school. </p>
<p>But, anyway, here's the data, and I leave it up to y'all to come up with an explanation. If med-school adcoms really do compensate people for attending difficult schools, then why are they demanding such high grades from MIT premeds? </p>
<p>Or perhaps MIT isn't a great premed school.</p>
<p>sakky, you seem very knowledgable about pre-med and medical schools in general. would you recommend I apply to St. Louis University's Medical Scholars program? It pretty much guarantees admission to their medical school, but I'm not sure how good the medschool is?</p>
<p>Norcalguy, then the question becomes why wouldn't MIT be a good premed school? </p>
<p>Contrast the 74% MIT admit rate with the premed admit rates at places like Harvard, Princeton, Yale, and Stanford, which hover around 90%. If you're good enough to get into MIT, then you're probably good enough to get into at least 1 of HYPS. We can sit here and argue all day about what the reasons might be for this discrepancy. You might argue that it may be because MIT isn't a good premed school. I would agree and say that this is because MIT suffers because of its difficulty and its grade deflation, which does not seem to be sufficiently compensated for, if it is compensated for at all, by the adcoms. You might have different reasons for why MIT is not a great premed school. But at the end of the day, the conclusion is the same - if you are absolutely certain that you want to be a doctor, MIT is probably not a good place to go, no matter what the reasons are. </p>
<p>The same could also be said for Berkeley, which also seems to get a surprisingly low percentage of its premeds into med-school, and hence one could also say that Berkeley isn't a good place to go for premed.</p>
<p><a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/MedStats/national.stm%5B/url%5D">http://career.berkeley.edu/MedStats/national.stm</a> </p>
<p>The point is, Occam's Razor seems to indicate that the schools that are known for difficulty and grade deflation seem to be the ones that don't get a lot of their premeds into med-school. That seems to be the easiest way to explain a lot of the data. If one argues that that is not true, then one is forced to come up with a bunch of one-off explanations that explain a bunch of individual occurrences. For example, why is Princeton more successful getting its premeds into med-school than is MIT? One could argue that perhaps there is something peculiar about MIT that makes it a bad place to go. But then, why would Princeton also be more successful than Caltech? One could then argue that maybe there is something unusual about Princeton that makes it an unusually good place to go. But then why are Stanford and Harvard more successful than Caltech? And so on, and so forth. A far easier way to explain all the data is to say that there seems to be a negative correlation between difficulty and premed admission. Bottom line - you want to go to a school that is easy. </p>
<p>Now, to Mediterranean, I would say that any of those BS/MD programs is extremely valuable. I am not familiar with the particulars of the one you are referring to, but I would say that if you are absolutely sure that you want to be a doctor, and unless you manage to get admitted into HYPS, you should very seriously consider going down the BS/MD route. In this day and age, guaranteed admission into a med-school (provided you satisfactorily complete the BS requirements of the BS/MD program) is tremendously valuable. Remember that almost half of all premeds nationwide who apply to med-school get rejected from every single med-school they apply to. That's right - every single one. Furthermore, some (not all, but some) BS/MD programs allow you to apply to other med-schools once you earn the BS. So if you think you can get into a better med-school, you are free to apply. But you will have your existing med-school as a backup.</p>
<p>I make the exception of HYPS because these schools have such high success rates at getting their premeds into med-school that they are basically "de-facto" BS/MD programs. For example, if you go to Harvard, then as long as you study hard, you are almost assured of admission to some med-school. It might be a no-name med-school, but at least it will be a med-school. The same cannot be said for many other premed programs out there where you run the very significant risk of not getting in anywhere. </p>
<p>Here are some critical questions I would ask to the BS/MD program:</p>
<p>1) How many students who enter the program as freshman actually make it into the MD part of the program? Lots of these programs have minimum GPA requirements for you to stay alive and eligible, and in some of these programs, only a small minority of the entering students of the program actually manage to complete it. For example, if only 10% of the entering students actually survive to the med-school phase, then that basically means that they are using the BS phase as their 'de-facto' admissions stage, and so that's really no different from just going to some other premed program and then applying to med-school as a regular premed student. You will probably have to ask this question to program alums, for I doubt that the program's admissions staff would want to tell you this information.</p>
<h1>2) Are you free to apply to other med-schools upon completion of the bachelor's? Or, put another way, does the program confer upon you the BS degree while you are in the middle of the program, which would allow you the freedom to take that BS and use it to apply to other med-schools?</h1>
<p>Berkeley and MIT are two schools that have traditionally been engineering powerhouses, not premed. Heck, Berkeley doesn't even have a medical school (I'm not sure about MIT). I am willing to bet that both schools probably have a higher precent of premed applicants who are engineers than most other schools and I agree with you that engineering is a difficult major for a premed student. I would also love to compare the verbal SAT scores of MIT/Berk applicants with those of HYPS premed applicants. Not to say that all engineers are deficient in verbal skills, but there is some credence to the notation that they are generally weaker in the verbal/English area. There is a verbal section on the MCAT but no math section. This would lead me to believe that the MCAT would favor those who are humanities majors rather than engineers. I would also question the strengths of the premed advising programs at both Berkeley and MIT since these two schools are known for cranking out excellent engineers but traditionally have not focused on premed.</p>
<p>Interesting and thoughtful response, norcalguy. </p>
<p>I don't think MIT has a medical school, btw.</p>