<p>Keilalexandra,</p>
<p>You realize 88% retention rate includes transfers, correct?</p>
<p>
Knights09, you realize you’re just making this up?</p>
<p>Knights09 - If you mean that the 88% includes people who transfer out–yes, I am aware, but the number of people who transfer “up” from Penn State is probably smaller than the number of people who transfer “down” to a community college or who drop out entirely.</p>
<p>LadyD, mom2ck - I entered college as a prospective English Lit major myself, and am still seriously considering a minor in English. I think I know the difficulty level pretty well… I’ve also taken a college-level English course at a local university and have lots of friends at the local state flagship. It can be rigorous, but it can also be easy to graduate with a 3.0 in English or Communications or Psychology from a given state university.</p>
<p>Moreover, the exact “real” easy majors are irrelevant–what matters is where the engineering and physics dropouts actually go, which is likely to be at least some of the time–the popular majors. I can’t imagine many prospective engineers failing out and then transferring to hospitality.</p>
<p>
Bolded is the part that I completely agree with. BUT–getting a “super” education is not *equivalent to<a href=“i.e.%20the%20same%20as”>/i</a> an “elite” education. Maybe that’s just the semanticist in me.</p>
<p>"Maybe we should start a cum list… "</p>
<p>Hahahahahahahahahahahaha…o, wait a min…AAAAHHHHHHHaaaaaahahahahahahahaha</p>
<p>Yet I would not say unequivocally that 88% of all Penn State freshman in a given year are capable of elite-level work, even if only in their major. (Maybe that’s elitist of me, but I’ve yet to see concrete evidence in either direction.)</p>
<p>Here’s the proof of what you say:
Let’s talk average intellectual horsepower of a college camous as a metric of student academic capability:</p>
<p>The average SAT score is about 1160 ish. This is hardly an elite student body. In fact, I would think that the “pseudo elite” threshold begins at ~1300 and “true Elite” is ~1400+. Pettifog all you want nay sayers, but in the aggregate, the average SAT is directly convertible to the average IQ of the student body. </p>
<p>Bright:
The average Stanford Binet IQ of the Penn State student body is ~115. This is bright (top 19% of the population), but hardly elite. </p>
<p>Almost Elite:
A 1300 SAT is ~130 IQ (top 3%) </p>
<p>True Elite:
1400 SAT is ~140 IQ (top 0.5%)</p>
<p>I guess I don’t understand why so many threads devolve into “public schools icky, private schools better” shooting matches. The OP asks for best honors programs at publics. Can’t we just stick to that topic, rather than getting into all these invidious comparisons?</p>
<p>^Certainly. Try avoiding controversial side information as well–like the unsupported assertion that public honors programs are equivalent to elite colleges where that same public school without honors would not be.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I’m under the impression that I am not making it up, as that’s what I have been led to believe by guidance counselors and college reps. As far as I know, retention rate refers to the amount of students returning to the university who were enrolled the year before. I would think that that includes dropouts, medical leave, and transfers (“up”," down", or “equal”).</p>
<p>Where did you get the SAT score, IQ correlation?</p>
<p>“^Certainly. Try avoiding controversial side information as well–like the unsupported assertion that public honors programs are equivalent to elite colleges where that same public school without honors would not be.”</p>
<p>Well said!</p>
<p>
Here’s what the Penn State page says about who they count in their statistic
Nothing about transfers that I can see…</p>
<p>I am talking about people that transfer out of the school. So if the retention rate is 88%, then 12% of “first-time degree seeking baccalaureate freshmen” either drop out or transfer.</p>
<p>To avoid offending the sensibilities of those who have attended, are attending, or have had children attend elite schools, I prefer not to use the word elite in describing what honors colleges offer. If they prefer to have proprietary use of the word “elite,” then let them have it. I prefer to use the phrase LAC-like or other similar words. </p>
<p>So, really, after re-reading the posts in this thread, only the first post seems to have the word that seems to offend the elite-guards. (note to whomever…the post does not offend me in the least) However, If we slightly change the first post to say…</p>
<p>The best can provide a high-quality and/or LAC-like experience at public U prices, while the worst may not offer much beyond the name itself.</p>
<p>Perhaps the discussion can be back where it should be.</p>
<p>Thank you, mom2collegekids. Wisdom and sanity, as always!!</p>
<p>“Try avoiding controversial side information as well–like the unsupported assertion that public honors programs are equivalent to elite colleges where that same public school without honors would not be.”</p>
<p>As mom2collegekids noted, outside of the OP, no one here has asserted this, unsupportedly or not. ;-)</p>
<p>BTW, DS’s CR & M SAT score composite is 1390. Gasp, horrors – he is ten points shy of Truly Elite. I guess his 790 Math II Subject SAT score must be a fluke. ;)</p>
<p>
Having filled my application list with LACs precisely because I believe that their experience is substantively different from that of honors programs at public universities–and yes, I mean this regardless of how highly ranked the LAC is, they are simply different experiences–I will respectfully disagree with your second choice of adjective.</p>
<p>High-quality, now THAT I can’t argue with (for the best honors programs, of course). Isn’t it nicer to use non-comparative terms?</p>
<p>^ Keilexandra, how would you characterize the difference?
Suppose the public honors college (or for that matter, the selective private university) also offers very small classes, Socratic discussion-based instruction using primary source materials, easy access to professors, no TAs, and a curriculum limited to the liberal arts and sciences. If all those elements are there, is the experience still not “LAC-like”?</p>
<p>“Where did you get the SAT score, IQ correlation?”</p>
<p>Scroll to bottom…there is a calculator</p>
<p>[Estimated</a> IQs of the Greatest Geniuses](<a href=“http://hem.bredband.net/b153434/Index.htm]Estimated”>http://hem.bredband.net/b153434/Index.htm)</p>
<p>This is for the “old” pre reentered SAT. To convert from the new dummied down SAT to the old score, subtract 60 - 70 points from the current SAT.
[SAT</a> V+M Composites](<a href=“http://professionals.collegeboard.com/data-reports-research/sat/equivalence-tables/sat-composites]SAT”>http://professionals.collegeboard.com/data-reports-research/sat/equivalence-tables/sat-composites)</p>
<p>Yes, the SAT is an IQ test.</p>
<p>“Where did you get the SAT score, IQ correlation?”</p>
<p>Scroll to bottom…there is a calculator</p>
<p>[Estimated</a> IQs of the Greatest Geniuses](<a href=“http://hem.bredband.net/b153434/Index.htm]Estimated”>http://hem.bredband.net/b153434/Index.htm)</p>
<p>This is for the “old” pre reentered SAT. To convert from the new dummied down SAT to the old score, subtract 60 - 70 points from the current SAT.
[SAT</a> V+M Composites](<a href=“http://professionals.collegeboard.com/data-reports-research/sat/equivalence-tables/sat-composites]SAT”>http://professionals.collegeboard.com/data-reports-research/sat/equivalence-tables/sat-composites)</p>
<p>Yes, the SAT is an IQ test.</p>
<p>"BTW, DS’s CR & M SAT score composite is 1390. Gasp, horrors – he is ten points shy of Truly Elite. I guess his 790 Math II Subject SAT score must be a fluke. "</p>
<p>If your DS is that smart, than he would surely realize that the tests, on an individual basis, contain a standard error of the mean. In english, your 1 time score is to be taken as an “X score plus, minus, X points”. You’d have to take the SAT 10-15 times or more to zero in on your “true score”. I think the standard error for the SAT is plus minus about 80/1600 points. </p>
<p>On a large sample population, however, the standard error dissipates and you can directly convert an aggregated number back and forth between two statistically similar exams.</p>