Best Major for Aspiring Creative Writers

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of California - Berkeley
1

<p>My own thoughts. Please discuss, I'm not sure how accurate these are. So feel free to input anything. Some background btw, I'm considering changing my major from English to Rhetoric or an Interdisciplinary Field Studies Major...</p>

<p>English- pros: would provide broadest knowledge of literature and writing.
UCB English is top notch.
probably best path to studying English in Grad School
cons: Twelve Courses Requried. About three of which I really have
no interest in taking...A bit tired of taking literature classes.</p>

<p>Rhetoric-pros: only seven core courses which would allow me more flexibility
to take creative writing classes.
The Narrative and Image Concentration seems intresting (I like
the theory aspect)
cons: not sure how 'good' the Rhetoric department is compared to
UCB English</p>

<p>Interdisciplinary Field
Studies pros: even fewer requirements than English and Rhetoric
I will likely incorporate creative writing classes from
several departments into my ISF major (giving me
more time and practice to write creatively which is
what I really want to do)
The ISF Creative Thesis Option is appealing.
cons: seems like the IFS majors are looked down upon as
fluff
core classes don't really interest me.
Not sure if a ISF major is looked down upon by grad
schools.</p>

<p>Please help me out!!! This is really a big decision for me. I want the path that will provide the education I need to succeed as a creative writer. =]</p>

2

<p>I was under the impression that Rhetoric is more about persuasive writing, and may not, therefore, be ideal for someone interested in creative writing. I'm no expert on the subject, though. I do know that the Rhetoric program at Berkeley is also excellent, though.</p>

3

<p>Hmmm any more thoughts?</p>

4

<p>English is a horrible major for an aspiring creative writer. </p>

<p>Sure, it "would provide [the] broadest knowledge of literature and writing" but it will also provide it in the most uncreative ways possible. You will not be discussing the innate beauty of a given text or its creative innovations but will rather be asked to pick it apart and find elements of racism, genderism, heterosexism, classism, speciesism, ageism, etc. You will be asked to organize your "findings" in the form of analytic essays. IMHO, this will cripple an aspiring creative writer. There have actually been psychological/statistical studies which have highlighted that writers of topnotch fiction (Nobel/Pulitzer Prize winners) use very different sections of their brain than the people who analyze their work (topnotch English professors) while "writing." It was also found that most English professors tended to be UNABLE to utilize the part of the brain most active in the fiction-creating process in the same way fiction writers can. For their part, the fiction writers were better at creating well-written analytic essays but the "better" the writer, the less s/he wrote analytic essays. I can really only think of two writers who were equally good at fiction and essays: Albert Camus and Virgian Woolf. Ayn Rand, maybe. </p>

<p>However, there are classes within the English department which deal with creative writing. Beware of those, they are tough. VERY tough. (Basically...if your fiction does not deal with the "isms", the professors will not think your story is worth the paper its printed on.) This is a general manifestation of academic political correcteness and is definetly NOT Berkeley-specific. </p>

<p>I don't know much about rhetoric but it seems to be about the same as English.</p>

5

<p>...whoa. is anyone else blown away by this great analysis provided by greatenstyen? I just learned a thing or two!</p>

6

<p>although i CAN notice a bit of bitterness in his tone toward college english. due to experience perhaps? heh jk!</p>

7

<p>"English is a horrible major for an aspiring creative writer. </p>

<p>Sure, it "would provide [the] broadest knowledge of literature and writing" but it will also provide it in the most uncreative ways possible. You will not be discussing the innate beauty of a given text or its creative innovations but will rather be asked to pick it apart and find elements of racism, genderism, heterosexism, classism, speciesism, ageism, etc. You will be asked to organize your "findings" in the form of analytic essays. IMHO, this will cripple an aspiring creative writer. There have actually been psychological/statistical studies which have highlighted that writers of topnotch fiction (Nobel/Pulitzer Prize winners) use very different sections of their brain than the people who analyze their work (topnotch English professors) while "writing." It was also found that most English professors tended to be UNABLE to utilize the part of the brain most active in the fiction-creating process in the same way fiction writers can. For their part, the fiction writers were better at creating well-written analytic essays but the "better" the writer, the less s/he wrote analytic essays. I can really only think of two writers who were equally good at fiction and essays: Albert Camus and Virgian Woolf. Ayn Rand, maybe. </p>

<p>However, there are classes within the English department which deal with creative writing. Beware of those, they are tough. VERY tough. (Basically...if your fiction does not deal with the "isms", the professors will not think your story is worth the paper its printed on.) This is a general manifestation of academic political correcteness and is definetly NOT Berkeley-specific. </p>

<p>I don't know much about rhetoric but it seems to be about the same as English."</p>

<p>greatestyen, thanks for taking the time to write all of that out. I never thought of it that way. I am definitely considering what you have just said. But what route would you suggest for the aspiring creative writer?</p>

8

<p>
[quote]
I was under the impression that Rhetoric is more about persuasive writing, and may not, therefore, be ideal for someone interested in creative writing.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Classical rhetoric is exactly what you describe, eudean, but that is a very, very small part of the department, a knowledge base which people should know (although aren't always taught).</p>

<p>
[quote]
cons: Twelve Courses Requried.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You should know this is about the standard number for major requirements for many, many majors at Berkeley.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The Narrative and Image Concentration seems intresting (I like
the theory aspect)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I've heard people say that sometimes, they're not quite sure why a course works in one but not another concentration. I think there is much overlap, but hey, if you like one, more power to you.</p>

<p>
[quote]
cons: not sure how 'good' the Rhetoric department is compared to UCB English

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, the English department will give you a more structured, broad base of canonical knowledge that has been established for years upon years. Rhetoric is far newer and has no true established canon. Some people in the department (from students to instructors) think it doesn't serve the interests of undergraduates well in certain ways. They're some of the (if not the best) at what they do in many ways, and I do agree that the Rhetoric deparment allows for more flexibility. I think you'll find the streams of thought in the core courses of ISF in many English and rhetoric classes. I've heard some advise students not to major in just rhetoric if they're interested in graduate school (although like ISF, many do fine in graduate and professional school admissions without doing anything more than their one major). Some do look at ISF as fluff, but hey, some look at rhetoric majors as fluff (and it seems most don't understand them, like philosophy majors), and some even look at English as fluff (some people . . . :rolleyes:.) Choose whichever is best for you, try calling undergraduate advisors and professors or talking to professors when you're in their classes about your different options, and remember, regardless of the major, it's really you who determine your fate.</p>

9

<p>CardinalFocused, </p>

<p>It really depends on what you'd like to write. For example, if you want to write historical fiction, Berkeley's "world class" History department might be best. The department is known for assigning novels in almost all of its undergraduate classes which deal with the period under discussion. But unlike English classes, you aren't taught to think of the text as a world in itself, but as a presentation of the world as it once was. (Might be easier to understand what I'm talking about once you take classes both in English and History.)</p>

<p>I believe that these departments will also cripple creative writing ability:: </p>

<p>Philosophy, Rhetoric, Political Science, Math, Chemistry, Engineering, Statistics, Economics</p>

<p>I believe that these departments will augment creative writing ability:: </p>

<p>Gender Studies (erotica/romance writing,) Anthropology, Art History (think The Da Vinci Code,) History, Biology (sci-fi,) Languages (they'll teach you with classic literature from that country,) Classics (the ancient epics as seen through archeological fact and not English department "fluff.")</p>

<p>Special praise for the Anthropology Department at Berkeley:: </p>

<p>It's pretty much the strongest Anthropology Faculty in the world. Will not usually assign novels but, IMHO, they'll teach you to look at human society in a way that isn't so factual (History, Classics) subjective (English,) or ivory-toweresque (Philosophy/Rhetoric.) </p>

<p>The anthropology library is also one of the strongest in the world. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/ANTH/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/ANTH/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Check out the Folklore Archive for story ideas. </p>

<p><a href="http://ls.berkeley.edu/dept/folklore/archive-policy.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://ls.berkeley.edu/dept/folklore/archive-policy.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Good Luck.</p>

10

<p>Depending on how you want your classes/major to influence your writing, perhaps this thread is relevant. Otherwise, I think as long as you write on your own time, you could do anything. And personally, I think many rhetoric classes would be great. Blah . . . good luck.</p>

<p>:)</p>

11

<p>"I was under the impression that Rhetoric is more about persuasive writing, and may not, therefore, be ideal for someone interested in creative writing. </p>

<p>Classical rhetoric is exactly what you describe, eudean, but that is a very, very small part of the department, a knowledge base which people should know (although aren't always taught).</p>

<p>Quote:
cons: Twelve Courses Requried. </p>

<p>You should know this is about the standard number for major requirements for many, many majors at Berkeley.</p>

<p>Quote:
The Narrative and Image Concentration seems intresting (I like
the theory aspect) </p>

<p>I've heard people say that sometimes, they're not quite sure why a course works in one but not another concentration. I think there is much overlap, but hey, if you like one, more power to you.</p>

<p>Quote:
cons: not sure how 'good' the Rhetoric department is compared to UCB English </p>

<p>Well, the English department will give you a more structured, broad base of canonical knowledge that has been established for years upon years. Rhetoric is far newer and has no true established canon. Some people in the department (from students to instructors) think it doesn't serve the interests of undergraduates well in certain ways. They're some of the (if not the best) at what they do in many ways, and I do agree that the Rhetoric deparment allows for more flexibility. I think you'll find the streams of thought in the core courses of ISF in many English and rhetoric classes. I've heard some advise students not to major in just rhetoric if they're interested in graduate school (although like ISF, many do fine in graduate and professional school admissions without doing anything more than their one major). Some do look at ISF as fluff, but hey, some look at rhetoric majors as fluff (and it seems most don't understand them, like philosophy majors), and some even look at English as fluff (some people . . . .) Choose whichever is best for you, try calling undergraduate advisors and professors or talking to professors when you're in their classes about your different options, and remember, regardless of the major, it's really you who determine your fate."</p>

<p>DRab, first of all, I'd like to say its an honor to be recognized you (haha as cheesy as this may sound). I've been hovering around these boards ever since the "Top Eight Reasons Not to Go to Berkeley" was in wide circulation. Anyways, I always admire your defense of our school and the eloquence by which you write out well thought out posts. Hehe, I consider you a CC Cal celebrity. </p>

<p>Yeah but the point about the twelve required courses for English is that many of them are those which I do not want to take (literature classes and whatnot). It'll seem like I'm doing the same thing over and over again. </p>

<p>But thanks for the words of wisdom. As you suggested, I think I'm going to do my best to contact students and faculty to see what would best suit me. Though I do acknowledge, everything comes down to me really and not my major... =)</p>

<p>"Depending on how you want your classes/major to influence your writing, perhaps this thread is relevant. Otherwise, I think as long as you write on your own time, you could do anything. And personally, I think many rhetoric classes would be great. Blah . . . good luck."</p>

<p>At this point, I'm leaning towards a IFS major with a few rhetoric classes thrown in to satisfy my curiosity.</p>

12

<p>"It really depends on what you'd like to write. For example, if you want to write historical fiction, Berkeley's "world class" History department might be best. The department is known for assigning novels in almost all of its undergraduate classes which deal with the period under discussion. But unlike English classes, you aren't taught to think of the text as a world in itself, but as a presentation of the world as it once was. (Might be easier to understand what I'm talking about once you take classes both in English and History.)</p>

<p>I believe that these departments will also cripple creative writing ability:: </p>

<p>Philosophy, Rhetoric, Political Science, Math, Chemistry, Engineering, Statistics, Economics</p>

<p>I believe that these departments will augment creative writing ability:: </p>

<p>Gender Studies (erotica/romance writing,) Anthropology, Art History (think The Da Vinci Code,) History, Biology (sci-fi,) Languages (they'll teach you with classic literature from that country,) Classics (the ancient epics as seen through archeological fact and not English department "fluff.")</p>

<p>Special praise for the Anthropology Department at Berkeley:: </p>

<p>It's pretty much the strongest Anthropology Faculty in the world. Will not usually assign novels but, IMHO, they'll teach you to look at human society in a way that isn't so factual (History, Classics) subjective (English,) or ivory-toweresque (Philosophy/Rhetoric.) </p>

<p>The anthropology library is also one of the strongest in the world. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/ANTH/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/ANTH/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Check out the Folklore Archive for story ideas. </p>

<p><a href="http://ls.berkeley.edu/dept/folklor...ive-policy.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://ls.berkeley.edu/dept/folklor...ive-policy.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Good Luck."</p>

<p>greatestyen, wow thanks for the response. At this point in time, I'm considering a broad based ISF major. I wish I could switch to a full fledged major but it think it might get cumbersome with the weeder courses and prereqs so I think this is my best bet. I never thought about anthro that way, do you have any particular class suggestions? Also thanks for the links, I'm going to check them out right now... =]</p>

13

<p>I'm not sure if this will fly, as I'm not sure how strict the IFS faculty are on proposed IFS Majors. But here is a rough idea of my ideal major...On a sidenote, I'm not sure how much overlap goes on in these classes. I would like to eliminate the classes that have too much overlap. Also, I would like to add a broader selection of classes that will widen my educational scope and ultimately help me grow as a writer (like the anthro classes greatestyen suggested)...So any comments and specific class recommendations are very much appreciated =]</p>

<pre><code> Literary Theory and Application Major

Creative Writing Application Component
</code></pre>

<ol>
<li> Chicano Studies 149 Creative Writing</li>
<li> English 143 A. Short Fiction</li>
<li> English 143 B. Verse</li>
<li> English 143 N. Prose Nonfiction</li>
<li> Film Studies 180 A Screenwriting</li>
<li> Film Studies 180 B Screenwriting</li>
<li> Native American Studies 150 Native American Narratives</li>
<li> Theater, Dance, and Performance Studies 139 Playwriting</li>
</ol>

<p>Literary Theory Component</p>

<ol>
<li> Rhetoric 178 Rhetoric of the Novel</li>
<li> Rhetoric 121A Rhetoric of Fiction</li>
<li> English 161 Introduction to Literary Theory</li>
</ol>

14

<p>
[quote]
do you have any particular class suggestions?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well I'm having second thoughts on anthro for you since it seems like all you want to do is get CW training. That said, the most popular courses on sociocultural anthropology are ANTH 3, and ANTH 160. ANTH 114 might be good if you want about the history of the discipline (the history of its approach to non-Western cultures, basically.)</p>

15

<p>
[quote]

DRab, first of all, I'd like to say its an honor to be recognized you (haha as cheesy as this may sound). I've been hovering around these boards ever since the "Top Eight Reasons Not to Go to Berkeley" was in wide circulation. Anyways, I always admire your defense of our school and the eloquence by which you write out well thought out posts. Hehe, I consider you a CC Cal celebrity.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Haha. Thanks.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Yeah but the point about the twelve required courses for English is that many of them are those which I do not want to take (literature classes and whatnot). It'll seem like I'm doing the same thing over and over again.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The thing about English, at least at Berkeley, is that what you will be studying will, for the most part, be literature (be it in prose, poetry, whatever). As far as I can tell, that's how it is, so if that's not what you want to do, or there is no concentration that allows you to focus a lot more on creative writing or whatever interests you more, you probably do want to look elsewhere (and this might be aviailable, but might not be as much what you want compared to your other options.</p>

<p>Depending on what type of graduate/professional programs of the highest quality you're interested in, you will want to talk to GSIs, professors, and knowledgeable students about how an applicant's major influences the application's perception. Sometimes these are irrelevant or can be incredibly mitigated through other factors, but in some cases, it matters, especially for the top programs in each field where pretty much everything matters.</p>

<p>I'm not exactly sure how ISF works, but I do bet that some for some courses you're advised to take certain prerequisites (although not always required). I would bet money that your intro to lit theory prof would want you to have experience in, at the very least, one of the English 45 classes or some equivalent course, and maybe even another English course in addition to that. That's something you'll have to consider. And really, I think a course or two in the 45 series (or seminars on different things in the English department) will greatly broaden and strengthen your education and knowledge. </p>

<p>Whenever you have the time, I would get into contact with the ISF undergraduate advisor, maybe an advisor in L and S, maybe one in English, one in Rhetoric. See what they think. They're there to help.</p>

16

<p>Special thanks to everyone that took the time to put their thoughts into this thread :)</p>

<p>After taking your thoughts into careful consideration, I'm dropping my English major and switching to Interdisciplinary Field Studies. I don't know what my specific concentration will be yet but I'm hoping for it to basically revolve around Creative Writing.</p>

<p>Just the other day ago, my friend reiterated greatesyen's point that majoring in English would cripple a CWs ability. I had always grown up with the understanding that an aspiring creative writers default major was English. Good thing you guys let me know beforehand; I probably would have gotten destroyed by the 45 series. In any case, I would like to share this information with the incoming freshman on these boards because this info does not seem like common knowledge. I sure as hell thought majoring in English and Creative Writing were complimentary. </p>

<p>So that is my update. Hopefully, I'll have time to put a decent writing sample togther so I can get into the CW classes I want.</p>

<p>If I ever get anything published, I'll be sure to give acknowledgements to greatestyen, DRab, and eudean :) Thanks guys, you helped out a lot... :D</p>

17

<p>Hehe sweet. </p>

<p>Honestly, I'm not entirely sure how cripling English is, but certainly the long papers and extensive reading are cripling to any person . . . I could understand it as somewhat cripling, but hey, Adam Duritz (Counting Crows) and Stephen Jenkins (Third Eye Blind) both did English at Berkeley (Adam dropping out 2 units short of graduating, Stephen as validictorian of his class) and they seemed to do okay with writing . . . </p>

<p>:)</p>

18

<p>I gave you terrible advice. I don't think I deserve any thanks this round. Reserve those for engineering questions, which I can help with.</p>