<p>Don't know where your statistics originate but they are not from Northwestern. HPME students have consistently performed at or above the level of their non-HPME Northwestern Med School colleagues for the near half century the program's been active. As Sam Lee points out, those entering the program, even by standards of competing programs like PLME and schools like HYPSM and Caltech, have extraordinary stats - median SATs of 1533 and SAT II's in the 770s are unmatched.</p>
<p>Ultimately, as a grad of the program and close to large numbers of other NU grads both in and out of HPME, I'll tell you that there are a clearly disproportionate number from HPME that end up in academic medicine and in leadership roles in medicine. Just this year, one of Northwestern's 4 Gates-Cambridge Scholar's is an HPME senior, typical of the quality of students found in the program since its inception.
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<p>The problem is that Northwestern's averages are 3.7/35 which is just as impressive, if not more, than whatever the HPME's bring. So, the non-HPME's at Feinberg match up as well as the HPME's.</p>
<p>The thing regarding the performance of HPME's in the 1st year of med school was just something I heard when I went to Feinberg for Second Look last year after being accepted. The top 3 complaints I heard about the HPME's were:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>They were immature. This is not surprising as they are around 3 years younger than the typical M1. In fact, a few HPME's I met on my interview day were first year med students but couldn't even drink yet.</p></li>
<li><p>They are cliquish and generally do not integrate as well into the rest of the med school class.</p></li>
<li><p>There are too many Northwestern students at Feinberg.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I think with curtailing the HPME program, as Northwestern is doing, the med school should be able to attract an even higher caliber of student now that some of those reservations have been alleviated. I don't mean this as an offense to you (since you are a former HPME) but Northwestern really does not need the HPME program. It can attract top med students and top undergrads without having to offer a guarantee to the med school (no MCAT, only a 3.2 GPA requirement, only 3 years of undergrad).</p>
<p>
[quote]
1. They were immature. This is not surprising as they are around 3 years younger than the typical M1. In fact, a few HPME's I met on my interview day were first year med students but couldn't even drink yet.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>They are cliquish and generally do not integrate as well into the rest of the med school class.</p></li>
<li><p>There are too many Northwestern students at Feinberg.
[/quote]
</p></li>
</ol>
<p>This is worth emphasizing. I love Northwestern and it is one of my favorite med schools in the country, but this is so true!! I would also add that half of the class spent a semester overseas as a premed. (I guess NU ad coms love that)</p>
<p>No offense taken, but let me explain why I hope HPME is still around for another half century.</p>
<p>As Northwestern Med's reputation has increased to top 20, the quality of student it attracts continues to grow. Nonetheless, the relative quality of the student passing through HPME has risen to an even greater degree. </p>
<p>In the real world of American medical schools, even top players like NU or where I now work, the vast majority of students will end up in rewarding careers but ones that are fairly pedestrian by standards of the profession. HPME has year after year consistently turned out a disproportionately large subset of students that have risen above and beyond the ordinary. The program does a great job of nurturing these individuals, opening up opportunities that otherwise would have been unavailable to them, and free them from many of the constraints of a typical undergrad pre-med environment. I am still a bit awe-struck thinking about some of these people "I knew when" and seeing what they've gone on to contribute.</p>
<p>When I referred to John Hopkins, and added... but it's in Balitmore. It was more so to my reference, Balitmore is by far not an ideal place for me. Why did I single out John Hopkins? Well it's seen as one of the top medicine school, which I think was well to list for OP. Overall, I'm just letting the OP know John Hopkins is in Balitmore... if they have the same view of Balitmore as myself ( high crime, etc...).</p>
<p>coolbrezze: John has an S on it. The correct name is Johns Hopkins. Of course, I assume you no how to correctly spell the city in which it is located?</p>
<p>Okay, I had a few spelling errors when typing. </p>
<p>Johns Hopkins, is located in Baltimore. I don't see Baltimore as an ideal place with high crime etc.... Though I've heard the university is seen as one of the best places to study medicine.</p>
<p>Are you sure HPME vs non-HPME hasn't been reversed since you graduated from the program? I vaguely recall you graduated from it like 2 decades ago. I think when you were there, HPMEs were better on average but I think not long ago, the caliber of the non-HPMEs caught up and then the reserse happened and Feinberg decided to downsize it a year ago. I actually read a short piece like 2 or 3 years ago about the plan to downsize HPME (they did just that shortly after) and it implied that was the reason.</p>
<p>A friend of ours who is an internationally known doctor (lectures around the world) and on the faculty at Harvard Medical School has said that the best prepared students for medical school come from JHU.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The HPME, a combined seven-year BA-MD program, has historically accounted for up to one-third of the medical school class with approximately 60 matriculants per year. The school would like to reduce the program to 20 students per year, with 12 to 15 admitted in the standard manner as freshmen and 5 to 8 admitted as sophomores. This will help address some deficiencies related to academic performance of some HPME students and improve the overall diversity of the medical school class, since few minorities enter on this pathway. We recognize, however, that the HPME is a joint program with the Evanston campus undergraduate program and any changes must meet our collective needs.
<p>Harvard, WUSTL, and JHU have the most prestigious med schools. In terms of pre-med, I wouldn't worry and doubt that it matters much for placement; you will likely be accepted at a solid med school as long as you work hard at any top university. That being said, you can't go wrong with any of the above three for pre-med.</p>
<p>Diversity would be the other issue. It's not just HPME but every BS/MD program out there. They are almost exclusively Asian and Indian. It's come to a point where a program with 10-20% white kids would be considered diverse. Black or hispanic? Forget about it.</p>
<p>The HPME kids account for around 1/4 of the class right now (35 kids or so). HPME like other combined programs is not very diverse which forces Northwestern to have to make up for the "diversity" in the regular admissions. I heard from a friend who's a first year at Northwestern that there were some issues this year as there are only 2 African American students in the entire 2012 graduating class and that Feinberg has stepped up efforts to recruit minorities for this year's matriculating class. </p>
<p>This is nothing against HPME specifically. I just don't think BS/MD programs add much to a med school. I think the benefactors are the kids who are getting the guaranteed admissions. A top med school linked to a top undergrad (like Northwestern) is hurt even more than a mediocore med school/mediocore undergrad. The purpose of these BS/MD programs presumably is to attract kids who otherwise wouldn't come. So, in Northwestern's case, it's to attract kids who would otherwise go to Harvard or Yale. But, adding 35 of these special kids to the undergrad seems to barely make a dent (especially when your own undergrad kids are almost as good) while you've just compromised 35 out of your 170 med school spots which is a huge impact.</p>
<p>
[quote]
A friend of ours who is an internationally known doctor (lectures around the world) and on the faculty at Harvard Medical School has said that the best prepared students for medical school come from JHU.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I believe that to be true, easily. Approx. 40% of matriculating Frosh at Hopkins are premed. It takes an extremely strong and talented individual to run that gauntlet and apply to med school from that program.</p>
<p>"Look, there are what 140 med schools in the US. Graduate from any of them and a student is an MD and can have a sucessful life-long practice. Graduating from Brown gets no brownie points over graduating from Wake Forest. The only difference a med degree makes is in research or future academics, but most premeds just want to live comfortable lives and practice with real patients."</p>
<p>Amen. I think there are seriously future doctors who JUST DON"T GET that the Harvard med school grad and the State Flagship med school grad do exactly the same thing day after day (treat patients, go to the hospital, etc.) and if they're in practice together, they make the same amount -- and how much they make is dependent on how well they run their businesses, not where they went to school.</p>