Musical Theater College Ranking: Opinions?

tiffw · December 27, 2007, 12:31am

We don't live anywhere close to the major MT schools that are discussed on this site, so we're not terribly in the loop for knowing how they all rank in relation to one another.

I'm sure this is a tricky question, but does anyone dare try to rank some of the top schools for MT? Which ones are considered to offer the best MT programs? Which are considered to be the most difficult to get into? Are those two lists the same? I realize it's all subjective, but I'm happy to hear anyone's OPINION, thanks!

ChadMan · December 27, 2007, 12:42am

Oh, this certainly will be interesting. I personally think NYU CAP, UM, CCM, and CMU are some of the best. But I don't really know too much.

uskoolfish · December 27, 2007, 12:48am

What about NYU Steinhardt Vocal Performance (MT)? CAP 21 in Tisch is frequently mentioned, but how do people perceive the Steinhardt program?

MomOfAPrincess · December 27, 2007, 5:33am

Find the postings of kjgc on this board - personally I find their insight interesting and valid. To me it seems a teacher can make all the difference in the world.

I also found examining the backgrounds of the Tony winners interesting. There is a thread on here about this plus you can find them online. CMU seems to appear there time and again. Yale MFAs also stood out. People can say that SoAndSo graduated from X University but I'm not as persuaded that makes X the best MT program. That CMU or Yale produced a disproportionate number of winners does say something in my opinion.

My daughter said she read that 3/4 of the cast of Wicked (don't know if this was Broadway or touring) came from Ithaca - that has to say something.

Another thing I like to consider is the chatter about contacts - where the directors pay attention. Which Senior Showcases the important people in the business - the people who will be hiring - like to attend. I justify the high cost of tuition being spent for 2 things - the excellence of her training and who shows up at her Senior Showcase and knows she exists.

There are a lot of successful people that don't even go to college or started and dropped out. I think what that means is if you don't have "it", it won't matter where you went or who was at your Senior Showcase.

ActressToBe · December 27, 2007, 8:22am

I would consider the top (in my own personal opinion) to be CMU, UMICH, CCM, BoCo, NYU-TISCH. Many, many of their graduates are employed right out of college and have actually made names for themselves in the business. Of course not everyone that goes there is guaranteed a career, but the odds are pretty high that you will be an employed, working actor after having gone to these schools. Whether it's on Broadway or just regionally, well that all depends. You shouldn't judge just with Broadway shows. I count success as meaning you don't need that day job anymore cause you can just support yourself through acting alone.

MichaelNKat · December 27, 2007, 10:04am

This topic has been addressed in depth on several prior threads which have benefited from the input of performing arts college counselors, persons on the faculty/staff at various colleges and persons with a load of experience as working professionals. The general consensus is that attempting to come up with a list of the "best" or "top" programs is not only a task fraught with subjectivity but is also meaningless. There are many excellent programs out there that offer strong training. The one that is "best" is the one that fits your needs and desires the best, that offers the balance and mixture of training that you are looking for (and there are real differences between schools - even the "big name" schools), where you feel you will develop the best rapport with the faculty and where you feel you will have the best collaboration with your fellow students. Some other thoughts that have emerged from prior discussions:
1. There is a big difference between the perception of a school's reputation and quality from the general public's "consumer" point of view (i.e. parents and students who are applying to schools) and the perspective of professionals working in the industry. There are many schools that from the "public's" perspective are not viewed as one of the "top schools" but which are known from an insiders perspective to provide very strong training and produce well qualified graduates who get work.
2. Related to this, a year or 2 out of school, no one cares where you graduated from. Your auditions and reputation earned by working with others are all that will count.
3. Trying to rate a school based on how many graduates are visible out in the performing world is misleading. The numbers can swing from year to year and just because some graduates from one school may be working one year, doesn't mean you will work too. In fact, just because you go to a "big name school" doesn't assure you will ever get work or have a better chance of getting work than someone who did not attend a "big name" school. Moreover, if you really peruse the Playbills etc, what becomes clear is that there are many paths that lead to success as a working actor - BFA programs, BA programs, "big name" schools, lesser known schools, even NO college.
4. Senior showcases are over rated. While a good experience, the number of students who obtain a concrete benefit/result from them is very, very small. In fact, one "big name" east coast school in NY, that has a Senior Showcase, readily states at its info sessions that senior showcases are over rated, are usually attended by lower level 2nd tier reps from various agencies and should not serve as the basis for selecting a school.
5. Fixating on attending a particular school or limiting your list to the "big name" schools is a formula for disappointment. In the world of BFA programs, the acceptance rate ranges from 3 - 9% depending on the size of the school and the number of applicants. Not great odds regardless of the school. It's important to have a well diversified list of programs including 1 or 2 non-audition BA programs.

From my point of view, what is important is to be a savvy consumer. Research schools in depth and find out what really makes them tick. Don't rely on public perception or manufactured auras of selectivity. You may find in the process that the "big name" school you thought was so great really isn't a good match while a "lesser known" school has exactly what you are looking for.

onstage · December 27, 2007, 10:39am

MNK's last paragraph struck a chord with me. My D auditioned for 6 schools -- among them was one of the 5 "top-rated" schools that everyone seems to mention. When she auditioned for that school, she did not care for the atmosphere at all. She was wait-listed for that school, but chose to attend another where she felt more comfortable. She is very happy with that decision.

fishbowlfreshman · December 27, 2007, 11:03pm

Here I go again stepping in another potentially hot topic that seems to come around every few months. What the heck. I'm on break. LOL

I disagree that it's misleading to look at the success of the different schools' grads. It may not be a guarantee of success, but a long history of large numbers of grads having sustained careers in virtually every corner of the industry is certainly an auspicious sign. The resulting alumni "mafia" effect has its benefits if nothing else.

Other than that, I don't really have anything new to add, so I'll just post a couple of quotes from wise ones past and present as food for thought ...

A few years ago on the Theatre/Drama thread, GADad said something that I wish I had paid more attention to ...
[quote]
I'm quite certain that the best predictor of future aspirations and standards for onesself is the quality of the peer group. If it's acting and only acting you're seeking, you need to be among the finest, most passionate, most committed acting students you can find. If your interests are broader and more varied, you need to be among the best and most intellectually-curious students you can find at a school that also has a respected theatre program. I am convinced that the quality of the teaching in the Ivy League is not much better than at your state college - in many circumstances, it will not be as good or as dedicated as a state college professor's. But the real value in going to Yale is spending the four most formative years of your life being influenced by peers who also got into Yale. In short, I'd take a good look at the students who go to the schools you consider. In four years - for better or worse - you will be more like them than you are today.

[/quote]
CoachC doesn't tend to participate in this type of discussion much anymore, but she did one time say some things with which I wholeheartedly agree about deciding for yourself which schools are "top" ...
[quote]
In my longtime experience, first as a high school teacher and then as a vocal coach focused more exclusively on helping students prepare for conservatory auditions, there really is NO reliable list. In fact, those books are SO inaccurate I tell my students to stay away from them. Often, they simply reflect programs which have struck some kind of deal with the book publishers - as was just pointed out here, many of them don't even include CMU, for example, and NO ONE would deny that CMU is perpetually a top MT program!

The only thing that has EVER worked, in my experience, as a way of ranking MT schools is to:

<ol>
<li>First and foremost, talk to people who are ALREADY working, preferably at the New York level (and by this I mean Broadway or off - just being "in NYC" doesn't count) or top regional levels. They know whose work they respect and where those people have gone to school. Barring this possibility (and of course it is not possible for everyone), go to playbill.com and read the bios of people currently in shows - you'll see who has listed their schools, indicating that they are proud to claim affiliation, and which schools recur. This is highly significant because you see who is CURRENTLY working - and that doesn't reflect "fads" in the business, it reflects which schools' training is keeping up with hiring TRENDS - which is incredibly important!!!</li>
<li>Gather info from students at various schools and from excellent, INFORMED sources like this board to compile a list of what seem to be important factors both overall and for you as a potential student. For example, many places which claim to be "top programs" don't have senior showcases - and I can't imagine anyone from CMU, CCM, UM, or any of the other top schools that do big showcases saying "You're right, showcase is NOT important." Some definitely WILL tell you it didn't pan out - but for those whom it DID pan out, they certainly consider it important! Again, the showcase factor needs to be weighed after talking to people from VARIOUS programs WHO ARE WORKING AT THE TOP LEVEL!!!!</li>
</ol>

By the same token, many schools claim "impressive master class guests," "visits from working professionals," "many grads hired right out of school or while they are still in school," and "professionally working faculty" as if they are rarieties among programs. No no no! Rather, those should be MINIMUM requirements for a truly "top" program! ALL top programs have these elements - they are NOT rare! Nothing frustrates me more than having a student come back from a college visit espousing the "unique" excellence of a program only to have to be the bad cop and tell the student, "That's not uncommon" or worse "That's simply not true."

<ol>
<li>Know that you can get a GREAT education at a program that is NOT a "top" program. Most important is you need to find the best fit for YOU. However, as MT casting directors and directors see it, the factors indicating what makes a "top program" generally tend to be:</li>
</ol>

a. a highly developed skill set - this goes without saying - including acting, vocal technique, musicianship, dance or movement

b. audition readiness and excellence - how much a student or grad can come into the room "owning" his material, having made truly appropriate and STRONG choices in both material and the presentation of that material; having music which is prepared ABSOLUTELY correctly (oh, the stories of BFA programs who turn their kids out into the world kind of CLUELESS about such things - NO BFA grad should have to come to a private coach like me to learn about these things!); ability to take adjustments quickly and retain them

c. overall professionalism - knowing HOW to prepare for rehearsal and always BEING prepared, pleasant demeanor, etc.

d. working knowledge of the business of the business

e. the fact that the above three elements are evident ACROSS THE BOARD in a program's students (not simply evident in selected students from any program)

So students and parents, once you start to become familiar with the top schools (the standard list usually includes: CCM, CMU, NYU, UM, NC School of the Arts, BoCo, Northwestern - with MANY "2nd tier" schools such as Wagner, Otterbein, Point Park, etc.), be wary of any school that you haven't heard a lot about that claims to be a "top school." It may be GREAT academically, have great facilities, etc. - but that doesn't mean it is among those regarded as a top school by the people who do the HIRING. Again, people can go to school ANYWHERE and work - or not go to school at all!!! - but I get so frustrated (obviously) by schools which make false claims of "top school-hood" - it makes me think maybe those schools THEMSELVES are clueless about where they stand in the bigger professional picture, or perhaps even worse, that they are selling prospective students a false product. If a school aspires to enter the ranks of top programs and needs to recruit top talent in order to be able to do this, I think that school should be HONEST, just like college sports teams are (ok, in general ) when trying to lure D-I candidates to a D-II or D-III school: "We might not be School X, but we are building our program and we want players like you in order to be able to do so."

On that note, the University of Michigan gives auditionees an EXCELLENT list of "things to look for when choosing a Musical Theatre program" (not the exact title but something like that) - and it is NOT at all designed to favor Michigan. (That's another thing I have found with most truly top schools - they don't need to trumpet that they ARE a top school, because their product, the students and grads, are all of the PR they need.) The extensive list of questions ranges from "Do you want a B.A. or a BFA?" to "Where are grads working?" I always thought it was a shame that students didn't get this UNTIL their Michigan audition - perhaps the School of Music would share it if a parent or student asked for it. I don't feel is it appropriate for me to post the list here since it is truly such a valuable resource developed by UM and I wouldn't want anyone to appropriate it and claim it as their own.

[/quote]

Oh, and since the Tony Nominees thread was mentioned, here's a link ... <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/musical-theater-major/191291-where-2006-tony-nominees-went-school-not.html?%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/musical-theater-major/191291-where-2006-tony-nominees-went-school-not.html?</a>

SingerNLmusic · December 28, 2007, 12:13am

In my opinion there are no "top" schools because it's really subjective to what your looking for in a program. For me CCM is at the top of my list, but so is Wright State which is a lesser known yet up and coming program that has tons of alumni working in major broadway national tours. Two other schools you might want to look into are Ithaca and Syracuse!!

colegePLEASE · December 28, 2007, 5:09am

Well, you can't really "rank" these schools. Fit is all that really matters. Go where you can grow. If you are interested in the schools with the lowest admission rates, those that often have a higher number of grads on broadway, look at these:

(in no particular order, remember fit!)

University of Cincinnati - College Conservatory of Music
Boston Conservatory
Florida State University
University of Michigan
Carnegie Mellon University
New York University (Tisch CAP 21)

mtdog71 · December 28, 2007, 5:32am

PLease look at the lengthy threads previously written on this subject - or perhaps - if someone knows how to - "Bump" that stuff into this one. Thanks

rossji · December 28, 2007, 8:35am

OK, I'll bite. My feeling is, the so called "top tier" schools MIGHT get their reputation since they can attract the MOST TALENTED students. A lesser known school might not attract the most talented. It's like a baseball team: do the Yankees truly have a better coach? Or can they just afford the best players?? Of course, I'm spending LOTS of money on my daughter's education thinking she's going to get a lot of training at one of the "top" schools. I really have NO WAY of knowing if there are better teachers at BW or American University, etc. One of the most talented girls I've EVER seen went to AU.
Naturally, MT students will grow and develop no matter where they go due to maturity, etc. I don't know that there are only a few "select" schools which can provide that "perfect" education. And obviously, this is a totally unbiased opinion!!

fishbowlfreshman · December 29, 2007, 10:08am

[quote]
PLease look at the lengthy threads previously written on this subject - or perhaps - if someone knows how to - "Bump" that stuff into this one. Thanks

[/quote]
Okay. Here are some easily identifiable threads that came up on a quick search for rank. I actually thought there were a lot more. Maybe it just seems like it since they have a tendency to become very long, tangential and testy ...

Maybe somebody can just bump this one the next time it comes up. :)

I don't know that the "most talented" students necessarily go to the "top" schools. I imagine most would like to go to one, but remember that some of the "top" schools are outrageously expensive. Many super talented middle class kids simply can't afford them and there's no telling how many don't even bother to audition because of it. I remember that at my first BFA school, there were a few students in my class who had been accepted to much more prestigious programs but chose not to go because of finances. Just something else to keep in mind if you want to rate ...

Happymom08 · December 29, 2007, 11:54pm

I'm running into a lot of people who won't allow their children to audition at any school whose "sticker-price" is more than 40000.00. I'm a great believer in "go for it, and we'll evaluate after the aid package comes in", but I think I'm in the minority here. So the people who want to rank might want to make two lists.

colegePLEASE · December 30, 2007, 1:14am

rossji has it right!

hagenbuch · January 8, 2008, 10:19am

I'm new to this. I saw a previous thread where fishbowlfreshman discussed BA and BFA theatre progams very nicely. Can you advise me on good BA theatre programs that have an emphasis or track focused not on theatre - but on screen acting and film making?

I see that UCLA's BA program has courses on acting for the camera and is integrated wiht the film and TV school. Are there others with similarities?

soozievt · January 8, 2008, 11:03am

I think most BA theatre programs are NOT going to FOCUS on acting for film or TV, but SOME may have courses in that area. As well, there would be opportunities to act in films at schools that ALSO have a FILM program. So, I would examine the curriculum of a BA Theater degree at a college and see if there are courses in acting for the camera and I would see if there was a film department so that there would be many student films to act in.

That said....have you looked a Chapman University? In their Theater major (they offer both an audition-based BA and an a BFA you can audition into after two years), they have a few courses in Acting for the Camera and they also have extracurricular opportunities for location film work and TV productions. They also have film majors who likely cast students in their films.

While NOT a BA program, NYU/Tisch has a BFA in Drama and you could study acting for three years in an acting studio and then in your fourth year do the Stonestreet Studio program at Tisch which is acting for film. On top of that, the Tisch Film majors produce many films using Tisch Drama actors.

Look for theater departments at schools that have good film departments and opportunities will abound in that way. But the major will still be in theater, but you may find some schools with some coursework in acting for the camera (such as at Chapman).

bsb2007 · January 8, 2008, 12:18pm

Mt programs with strong empasis on acting would be CMU and Syracuse
These are BFA programs with ALOT to offer

soozievt · January 8, 2008, 12:51pm

^^^That may be true but that was not the question posed. The member was asking about BA in Theater programs with a focus on screen acting and film. While that wasn't on the topic of the thread, they are not asking about BFA in MT programs.

acsch · January 9, 2008, 3:38am

This is all very interesting. I have to agree that a reputation of a school attracts more talent, which equals an even better reputation. But something to consider, perhaps, is how said school got the reputation to attract such talent in the first place. In the end, I think any school with a musical theatre program, BA or BFA, is going to give decent training, given the resources it takes to even offer such a degree. So, I guess I'm just reiterating what's been said a billion times: that it comes down to fit.

I also thought the list of where the 2006 Tony nominees went to school was interesting...I hadn't seen that. Goes to show how many paths there are to an end, I suppose. It's certainly nice, I think, for all of us to realize that the dream doesn't end with not being in a BFA program. I hear stories all the time about so-and-so the econ major who's in such-and-such national tour, or whatever. Kind of inspiring.

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