<p>Thank you SJTH for building on the great post by ALLMUSIC. I really appreciate all the information.</p>
<p>I have read great things abou McGill as a music school have not looked into their jazz program because the weather and distance probably prevents it from being a real contender. We are not dismissing any school on difficulty to get in at this point. But I certainly would consider Julliard and Manhattan to be schools even a good musician should not assume he can be accepted. One thing to be accepted, another to be wanted enough to have them pay a good chunk of the cost.</p>
<p>I would expect we will have a reach school or two that could be from a group like Oberlin, Manhattan and even Julliard depending on his teachers advice. Chicago sounds like a good city to look for schools. Obviously a 17 year old does not know exactly what he is looking for in a 4 year school where he will live, eat, study and probably work. He probably feels that if he likes the professors and the quality of ensembles and combos are very strong that he can adjust to small city or huge NYC/Chicago type surroundings. </p>
<p>It would have to be a situation that his exceptional abilities to improvise and his leadership skills will be to his advantage and supported.</p>
<p>I doubt we will even look at West Coast schools even though there are some great one. Just a personal preference to stay in the east. I will have to do some research on The New School. I thought there was only Julliard, Manhattan and Mannes in NYC as far as conservatories. At this point I am probably thinking he has to go where there is some education involved that ends in a degree, so a conservatory that is part of a university or with connections along with universities with good music schools. I would expect to take a strong look at those smaller schools in rural or urban areas with good programs that you mention. Seems that one of those maybe more fiscally responsible especially if a NYC program for grad school is in the back of his mind.</p>
<p>Size of the music department is something we have not really discussed. I would imagine 20 would be tough because it is too small for some activities as he probably will want to continue to play in large ensembles like an orchestra. 2000 maybe a bit on the large size which was our first reaction to UNT. But that needs to be considered and I appreciate you mentioning it. Some of the state universities have 50,000 students and again that in my opinion is a big negative. I have seen situation where for your first two years you do not study with the professor and have no real chance to be in a good or even any ensemble and those kind of situations we would like to avoid.</p>
<p>Seems like the variables are endless and no one school may perfectly fit every wish. I plan on gaining a ton of information for 3 months and then maybe I can start asking intelligent questions.</p>
<p>I’d encourage your son to audition for the Grammy Band, Vail, Next Generation Jazz Orchestra, NFAA, Downbeat, etc., as winning/getting into any of these (or more than one) is the very best way to assure that he will get big money from schools. Berklee and New School pay handsomely for Grammy winners. We know that MSM has given a full ride to at least one former NFAA winner and a top player at Ellington. I know UMiami also supports these winners, and they also offer top kids (that will comprise a combo) full rides. I forget the name of this scholarship.</p>
<p>Although there is an occasional superstar who comes in off the street and gets big money based on audition alone, most of the jazz kids who get full or near full rides are known “on the scene” already. The jazz world is actually not that big.</p>
<p>Sorry for the slow response on WPU, living 15mins from the college you tend to abbreviate the name as so long to type. As a NJ resident I would not agree anymore that SUNY Purchase is a cheap school option unless you live in NY. They had most of their music scholarship money eliminated and put tuition rates up for out-of-state kids 20%. In fact we eliminated it on cost alone although my son wanted to study with the teacher there. Just to throw a couple of of other lesser known possibilities in the mix, in Pittsburgh, you have Duquesne which has a very good jazz program with faculty who are professional jazz musicians. Similarly, in Chicago, DePaul has a good jazz/music program.</p>
<p>At $13K a year for tuition for out of state, Purchase is still quite a bargain as music schools go. Yes, it is nearly triple what in-state students pay, but it is still quite a far cry from the $35K or more in tuition at many other schools. Room and board add another $10K plus fees, so Purchase could be closer to $30K, rather than $55K for full freight at MSM or others. Not cheap, but definitely more doable for some who would not be in line for big scholarship money at other conservatories.</p>
<p>I understand some schools waive out of state premium to bring in talented players. Does anyone know how to find out which schools or states allow that?</p>
<p>Only ever heard of University of North Texas waiving the Out-of-State fees. Someone else may have other knowledge. Don’t want to sound too down on SUNY Purchase. Think I was just annoyed that the increases were announced after my son applied and it was stated that 80% of the increase would not go to the school but just to pay the state deficit so was really just a tax on out-of-state kids. Then they told my son they had to cut 2/3rds of their music scholarship budget etc… I was worried that the same thing could continue to happen over the next four years. Same thing just happened at Indiana U (bigger tuition increases for out-of-state kids) but not as badly so cannot avoid it unless you go in-state or to UNT. As an aside, Rutgers is another school to look at that has very talented jazz/brass faculty that also teach in NYC schools.</p>
<p>Parents of juniors, now is a great time to begin researching summer programs for your kids. Some of them have early/mid winter application deadlines, so these can slip by. Both Allmusic’s and my sons attended the Eastman summer jazz program, which I think was an invaluable experience for both of them–both in terms of the caliber of music and the chance to get a feel for what a conservatory experience would be like. Most kids my son went to Eastman with are indeed enrolled in myriad music programs all over the country. As Allmusic mentioned, the jazz world is actually very small. At Oberlin, my son knew or knew of almost every single freshman there, and feels as though he has jazz friends all over the country as a result of competitions, awards, and You Tube! Eastman is just one of many high quality summer programs. I envy you junior parents having the smarts to begin investigating now. I was very late to the party, though my son wasn’t! ;)</p>
<p>Piggybacking on SJTH, we saw loads of kids at auditions that my son had gone to summer programs with, or met at festivals, competitions, etc. It made auditions even more fun, because there were already familiar faces almost everywhere we went. He knows kids from totally different parts of the country who ended up at the same schools, which made for odd coincidences and all kinds of “three degrees of separation”. In fact, my son is currently rooming with a friend he met at the Eastman program three years ago!</p>
<p>Tuition is up and scholarships are down. Just what I keep reading. Great news and it is likely to get worse. That will probably make the decisions easier at least.</p>
<p>I will have to look at the Eastman Jazz camp but it is probably as expensive as going there.</p>
<p>Some other shorter Jazz camps that I know of. Penn State has a fun music camp for a week that my son attended. Price was very reasonable and included living in the dorms and food. It has several options, Orchestra, Concert Band and jazz plus some classes as options. My son ended up playing in the Orchestra, Concert band and one of the jazz bands so did not do any options. William Patterson has a one week jazz improv camp that is reasonable and they have a different guest teacher each day followed by a concert. Rowan University in New Jersey has recently started up a one week jazz camp that looked like it had a fun schedule. Jamey Aebersold holds a Jazz Camp at the University of Lousiville that also looks reasonable in cost. So plenty of choices out there. My son did three one week summer camps before his audition year and talking to the other kids at the various camps really helped him sort out whether he wanted to apply for Music performance or education and where he should apply.</p>
<p>Looks like Eastman Jazz camp is not that out of line expensive. I did not know there were that many jazz camps, thank you for listing them. </p>
<p>It is interesting to read that so much networking goes on at the camps that might actually help the student with admissions. I thought it was only about playing better.</p>
<p>Jazz maybe different than classical and a small world but isn’t it still all about the audition?</p>
<p>Eastman gives scholarship money based on the audition CD, and most of the prestigious programs like Vail have no tuition at all for the selected students.</p>
<p>It is all about the audition, to some extent, but some students have auditions waived based on winning competitions, etc. Most of the kids at the upper eschelons already know each other, or at least of each other, and are MySpace Music friends, at least. The directors of the jazz programs also know of a lot of these kids too, if only by name, if not by having worked with them in summer programs etc. It also doesn’t mean a lot of kids who didn’t win competitions and awards won’t be admitted, because many will. It’s just that there is the most scholarship money and the most chance of automatic admit for those that are already “known”.</p>
<p>By “Eastman gives scholarship money based on the audition CD” you are talking about audition CD to the camp and scholarship to the camp, correct?</p>
<p>Should I discover that my son is among the elite, I will certainly keep that in mind. Sounds like you are talking the 10 or 15 best players on their instrument in the country. I would guess he has a long way to go to see if he can get close to that rarified air. We should have a better idea in six months when those camps start taking applications.</p>
<p>Maybe I should find My Space and do some searching there to see who the best of the best are.</p>
<p>Do many students attend those camps even after their senior year when they have already been accepted into music school? Or is it mainly younger students?</p>
<p>A school like MSM that lists about 5 classical trumpet teachers and 3 jazz trumpet teachers has to admit a few trumpets every year. One or two per teacher? Some conservatories with one or two teachers like Oberlin probably only take one to three? Or am I making bad assumptions?</p>
<p>There’s a number of prior summer threads. I find a title search tends to bring up the majority of threads on a general info topic like this. Some representative examples from and advanced/“summer”/titles search. You may have to read through and redo the search as only one jazz specific title came up.</p>
<p>As for admit numbers, you’re guesstimate is probably pretty accurate depending on institution; may be 3-5 at some places and years. Sometimes you can ask how many they plan on admitting, or if any studios are closed for a cycle. Many schools are fairly forthcoming if the question is broached.</p>
<p>There is a tiny elite (start by looking up winners of Brubeck, Grammy, etc), and then a broader number of other talented kids. We just found that the really big money went to the kids who had the most accolades under their belts (for ex. kids who were in Next Generation and Grammy and NFAA). Kids start auditioning for most of the awards in junior year and into senior year. THere are a few who have made the Grammy band twice (in 11th and 12th grades). Camps are great after 10th and 11th, but many kids go summer after 12th too. Getting a full scholarship to the Berklee 5 week program or being accepted to Vail, or even getting a smaller scholarship to Eastman or Stanford or Litchfield, or any of the other great summer jazz programs, can be listed on a college music resume.</p>
<p>And I think we read that if there are two openings for a teacher they will accept 4-5 students, depending upon the school. The same kids can’t go to all the schools, so some schools have even had to go to a waiting list.</p>
<p>Thank you for the suggestions violadad. I was just trying to get a picture in my mind of the relationship between attending camps and being admitted to top programs. Seems like maybe some chicken or the egg situations. Did the kid that got admitted do so because he went to that camp or because he was good enough to get in the camp, he was good enough to get into the school. I just do not get the concept that some professor looks at a players resume and reads he was in a big name camp and decides to admit him. That goes against everything I have seen and heard in the past. Most professors from what I have heard do not even want to see the resume nor care what is on it. All that matters is how the candidate plays for that 7 to 20 minutes.</p>
<p>Are there camps that help you because of their name or because of how much players improve by attending? That goes to the heart of what I was looking at.</p>
<p>Are there enough "award winning’ players on any one instrument to even fill all the needs of the conservatories even if they all applied?</p>
<p>Interesting to know about all these camps and competitions. In the respect that they could actually get a player admitted or a scholarship could come from it. </p>
<p>The camps that are for 9-12 as I think Eastman said it is, I would suspect would have few top players that have completed high school. Camps that include adults and college players would seem better draws for them.</p>
<p>So simple math of 3-5 on average to what a dozen conservatory level programs and another 10-15 top level music schools that do not have the conservatory label? Would that be fair? So somewhere around 100 trumpet players needed for the best schools? Not even talking UNT and Berklee who probably take what triple that many? Excuse me for trying to bring this art down to simple math, that is about all I understand. It does seem the top 100-150 trumpet players probably are going to very good schools and about a third of them will be in high demand. Just trying to get a snap shot of how many beyond the elite 10 or so that get awards that end up in good programs.</p>
<p>Well at least in jazz, trumpet players that can improvise are high demand instruments unlike in classical. Since he can play lead or second he should find some decent program that will want him even without being one of the elite award winners.</p>
<p>violadad thanks for the links tons of great information for legit players, almost nothing for those going into jazz. It did get me thinking if going to a classical camp might benefit him. I will bring it up with his teacher. Looks like there are some very special camps.</p>
<p>It would be good if we had more kids going to or having graduated college that stopped in here and commented on how their pre-audition experiences ended up helping or hurting what they ended up doing. Talking about the camps they attended, auditions, the schools they are in, those they wish they were in, those they are glad they did not go to and other thoughts in those areas. We do have some great parents that relay some of that information and it is greatly appreciated. Many of you being musicians also gives us more insight.</p>
<p>Might be interesting to look at return for second year stats on schools. Graduation rate for entering freshman. I guess you can tell I am a numbers person. Number of graduates that are actually working musicians per school( I seem to recall a NY Times article that indicated more Julliard grads work the counter at department stores than play music for a living, scary.). I would guess sheer numbers from some schools like UNT and Berklee might skew those results. </p>
<p>How much of a difference in a good musicians chances after undergrad of either working as a musician or getting into a top grad school does it make if he goes to Podunk U, BigState U, or BigNameConservatory. I certainly have met working jazz musicians that have gone all routes to get there. Top teachers have almost any school on their resume.</p>
<p>Or maybe it is just me trying to compare 50-60K per year schools and 15-20K per year schools and ask is there really that much an advantage? </p>
<p>In a business where resume means nothing, or close to nothing, does one really need to spend triple and go to a prestigious school? Camp?</p>
<p>I hope the jazz threads remain alive and on the front page as much of the classical information does not seem very relevant to those hoping to enter college as jazz majors.</p>
<p>Trumpet57, I think you’ve put your finger on what probably every parent on here has struggled with. There really aren’t “odds.” As much as you’re a numbers person, and many of us are, there just isn’t a way to predict success in the arts. Heck, with this economy, there’s no way to predict that my oldest son, who is majoring in computer science (which I thought might be pretty dang marketable) won’t be working the retail counter as well. </p>
<p>I have been having a discussion with another jazz parent about a music degree vs. a double degree, because we parents are nervous about our children really “making it” as professionals. I am comforted by the local jazz musicians we know who make a very good living with myriad jobs AND gigs. Some of them teach at the private lesson and/or university level. Some have a “day job” and a very lucrative pro career. They’re comfortable, creatively fulfilled and happy. They have gone to schools from small community colleges with decent jazz programs to the big name places. They’ve toured as pros, or not, and have chosen to live in my city for lifestyle reasons. I could wish a LOT worse for my son. I feel honored that we can let our son follow his dream. </p>
<p>I too would love to see jazz threads continue to have a presence here. Fortunately, however, the wise classical folk have paved the way with all of the info Violadad and others have provided. Many of the thought-, application- and audition-processes are the same. </p>
<p>You have jazz and other friends here, but maybe not the numerical answers… though, dang, if you find them for G@@@d’s sake, share!!!</p>
<p>Trumpet57, Think you are correct in thinking that the entrance audition is the key for admission and scholarships and not what camps or awards are on the resume. The summer camps, especially the longer ones like Berklee will help in the preparation for that audition and help a child decide if they should apply to that school in the first place and which faculty they want to study with. My son applied to one small school not known for music just based on a faculty member he studied with at a summer camp. However, he also decided to go the classical route after talking to the jazz students at Wille P and UNLV (University of Nevada - Las Vegas). He found the students doing well live and breathe jazz and listen to it all the time which he does not, he just enjoys playing it. I think summer camps continue throughout college, my son attended two this summer after his senior year at HS and is already thinking about next years summer camps. The reason, music kids have to arrive at college ready to audition the first week of class for placement in bands. Some summer music camps like Berklee, Interlochen and Penn State have a jazz option and others are seperate camps like the Abersold at Lousiville. Spent lots of time googling to ferret them out. </p>
<p>Not sure about your math on how many jazz trumpet kids are needed. For example, Indiana University has four jazz bands so each college may need more than you suspect and I think if you dig you will find a lot of good schools out there supporting jazz programs at the moment. </p>
<p>Odds wise, as a statistician, I think that if you choose some reach schools, reachable schools and a safety or two, then plenty of choices will be there. The hardest part is finding what those reach colleges are to apply to and the camps and music teachers the child studies with are the best sources of information there. I was in the same boat last year as a numbers man with no knowledge of music schools and through hard work on the audition material by my son and lots of discussions he ended up with lots of choices. Also, it happens that Indiana University now allows music students to do a music minor (which I think is unusual) so he is thinking about doing a minor in Jazz Sudies which is great for him.</p>
<p>Yes, this board is mainly parents as I think we are the ones that worry even more than the kids.</p>
<p>Not to beat any dead horses, but clarity is important, if only for confused lurkers! In jazz, certain awards and accolades trump the audition and may even make the audition unnecessary.</p>
<p>If a student gets into Grammy or Brubeck, he/she will not even need to audition at a number of schools, including MSM, because Justin DiCioccio, Assistant Dean of the Jazz Division, is the director of the Grammy Band. Grammy is an automatic admit at Berklee and New School I believe. Recipients of a full summer scholarship at Berklee need only audition for more scholarship money at the undergraduate level, not for admittance. </p>
<p>There are plenty of camps and awards that look nice on the resume but do not hold the panache, if you will, of the few choice honors. The really prestigious honors don’t cost anything—they are all expenses paid, including airfare.</p>
<p>There are oodles of college jazz programs, but they vary considerably in overall caliber of students, intensity of programming, even number of ensembles or combos. At some, kids who have been the top student at their high school or region could be a very, very small fish in a big sea of talent. Some kids prefer being one of the top students, right from the beginning. It all depends on the goals, ambitions, desires, etc. of the student. Most know where they feel comfortable, and there is a program for everyone.</p>