Also, @LongTimeGuest, the low 10%-30% graduation rate you reference is misleading.
Many students take classes for college transfer, do well, get 30-40 credits, and transfer to a 4-yr without getting the AS or AA degrees first. Those students were certainly successful in their studies, and that fact these students had a positive, enriching experience is not reflected in the percentages you are referencing. Graduation rates are not a good indicator of performance at the community college level, simply because so many students stay a year, do well, and transfer out.
There are good and bad community colleges. I disagree most are scammers but it’s true some may enroll students who are completely unprepared to function even at a decent high school level - kids who barely graduate high school with a 9th grade reading level, who don’t do or can’t do homework, etc. These community colleges serve as remedial high schools. In addition, many community colleges are overcrowded and underfunded.
And there are community colleges that receive almost decent funding, where many students not only hope but have a good shot at transferring, where remedial reading and math is not the norm, where classes such as calculus 1 and 2 are routinely offered, etc.
In general, for the borderline, traditional-age student*, there are two possibilities:
student needs to mature = CC is a great opportunity at a low cost, that can be continued by a 4-year college after 2 or 3 years
student needs to be surrounded by higher-achieving students or slacks off = the 4-year, very moderately selective/directional university is better because there’s no shortcut or settling
Each parent should know their kid and have an idea whether one or the other will fit his attitude better. Investigating the transfer rate to a 4-year university is also crucial as those can be very different.
Overall, it makes sense to me that borderline student would be more successful at 4-year university, because the academic level may not be much higher (if at all) and simply “going with the flow” would “naturally” conclude in getting the 4-year degree (in 5 or 6 years perhaps…), whereas at the community college it’d require planning, meeting with advisers, following through, etc., all things which may become obstacles.
leaving aside the case of a motivated student who needs a second chance due to outside circumstances, or bright student who is forced to attend CC for whatever reason
Community colleges take students where they are academically and move them forward. That means different things for different people. We have many students who are academically capable and we provide the extra TLC that @Belkcom describes. We have other students who struggle academically, but who leave ahead of where they were when they first enrolled. We enroll gifted high school students who have maxed out in math and want to take Calc 2 & above while still in high school . We take folks who are low academic achievers, but who have technical capabilities in welding, culinary arts, cosmetology, etc. Our society needs all kinds of workers. Everyone can’t be a professional.
I would assert that we have the broadest range of students and that presents a greater range of challenges than what most four year schools deal with. It’s tough to do the job with the limited resources that are available given decreased legislative funding.
As for claiming that everyone’s community college is top in the nation, I don’t think I’ve made that claim before on this thread or anywhere else. I’m going to make it now, though. My school is one of the top 10 finalists for the Aspen Prize for the third cycle in as many times as it has been awarded. Actually, we were in the top 5 during the first cycle. We find out the winner next week on Wednesday. I would end by claiming that we do God’s work, but I believe that’s true for all educators. I don’t like to be confrontational on this board, but I’m seriously offended by some of the comments I have read today on this thread.
Going away to college is likely experienced by only a minority of college students. Enrollment in commuter schools (including both community colleges and four year schools with heavily commuter student populations) greatly outnumbers enrollment in more residential schools.
It is mostly the top students (who can get admitted to the most selective schools with the best financial aid, or get the best merit scholarships) and those with wealthy parents who can go away to a residential college. Most other college-ready high school graduates tend to face significant admission and financial constraints that can make going away to a residential college either financially unfeasable or not a good deal compared to commuting to a local school. Of course, non-traditional students who have additional commitments to work or family are also constrained in school selection.
I live in GA and I’m fairly familiar with the CC’s and universities here. One problem I have with the article is that it doesn’t take into account the HOPE scholarship, and that’s a huge factor in how well low income/marginal kids do at the colleges here.
I think it probably skews the 4 year graduation rate here a lot because those kids who are barely scraping by (usually due to monetary issues as much as anything else) have that bump to keep going and get their degree because of the HOPE helping them along. Although lately (due to the insanely corrupt state government pillaging the crap out of the HOPE coffers), the gpa requirements have been raised to a fairly stringent number, so it might affect the numbers later on.
I’ve taken a few classes at Atlanta area CC’s (and one in Miami), and some are solid, and some are total junk. It depends on the teacher. Having attended a fairly difficult college (Carnegie Mellon U), and some solid middle of the road ones (FAU, University of Miami, GA State), there’s no doubt in my mind that the quality of teaching overall is better and more consistent at the 4 year colleges. The kids tend to have their stuff together better, as well. I heard a lot fewer cockamamie excuses and requests for deadline extensions at the 4 year colleges.
One of my daughter’s friends is in the top 1% of her class and really brilliant, and her mom wants her to spend the first two years at a community college (frankly, because she’s cheap). I said I was sure she’d meet a nice cute, dumb 26 year old guy who’d want her to have babies as soon as possible and have fun smoking pot in the parking lot after class with her. That’s the predominant mindset I experienced at a lot of the CC’s that I attended (as an older mom who was kind of horrified at the whole thing.)
It’s ok if you want to roll that way, but for any parent thinking about wanting to cheap out on the first two years, give a little time thinking about the different social atmosphere at the CC’s. It’s very different and your peers may be different than who you socialized with in high school. You can come out of CC’s with a solid education, but in my experience, it’s more difficult by far because of the collateral stuff going on.
I’m a huge CC fan but as many have said, selecting a 4-year or CC is situational.
D1’s freshman year was at our local CC (we are in TN so it was free), taking her first-year courses for a BSN. Classes were small and she was well prepared for her BSN program at a state U. The CC instructors were fantastic and the classes were much smaller than 4-year colleges.
Big differentiator: rather than the weed-out mentality, the CC is there to help students meet their goals.
TN CCs and the state U’s are all part of the Tennessee Board of Regents system so course numbers are exactly the same–whether taken on a CC campus or at the state U–the academic calendar is the same, and so on. The University of Tennessee is a separate system but has articulation agreements for transfer students.
Through her CC, D1 was able to study abroad in Paris between her freshman and sophomore years and received a 50% scholarship for same (TNCIS program). She graduates this May.
D2 is a freshman at a small residential LAC and is doing extremely well. She is pre-med and laser-focused on her studies and activities. This is working well for her.
Side note: we visited a UTK freshman chem class. There were over 300 students. It was a major turnoff. Both the CC and the LAC provide a personal education.
My son has taken a total of 7 classes at our local community college during his high school years. He pointed out to me that 5 of his teachers had PhD degrees. I think that’s fairly impressive. Had he attended our local high school, he would be unlikely to have any teachers with a PhD. He is however contributing to the low graduation rate at his comm college because he will not be graduating from this school. This summer he will be headed to the United States Military Academy (West Point). His classes at our comm college have been excellent preparation for West Point.
OF course not all comm colleges are of the same caliber, but that is also true of four year colleges/universities.
I was the oldest child and the first generation in my family to go to college. When it came time to apply, I remember my mother scheduling an appointment with my high school counselor, and I think this was one of her main questions. I was going to be a commuter student either way, and both were similar in terms of driving distance. From my mother’s point of view, it was mainly about the difference in cost, and whether the additional cost of state U was worth the investment. We were a lower middle class family, and I was the first of three, so cost definitely mattered. He told my mother that I should go state U instead of CC, because statistically I was more likely to stay committed and finish there. He convinced her, so off I went to state U.
My high school grades were not stellar. I was a B student essentially, barely over a 3.0. I was more interested in sports, girls and socializing. I did have an above average ACT score.
It did work out good for me. I made much better grades in college than I did in high school. My commitment level was much higher. It felt like a fresh start. I felt like a lot more responsible for the outcome, because I knew my parents were paying for it. I was determined not to fail. My total focus was on the job beyond graduation. I was offered a job by a big 4 accounting firm 9 months before I graduated, and never looked back. Today 20 years later I am a tax partner in a regional firm.
Would I have done just as well if I had started in CC? Obviously I can’t say for sure. I think so, but it would have been a different path and a different experience certainly.
The decision would have been a lot different for my parents today. That 4 year degree they sacrificed to pay for cost less than $10k (plus the room & board at home and commuting from home) in the early nineties. It would cost over $40k in tuition at the same school today.
I believe this article is a reflection of the overall admissions system, not the student. College Applications have much in common these days with filing tax returns. Making the jump to 4 year from CC is very complex and requires quality advising in addition to students setting firm goals. It is easy for solid students to become distracted along the way by work or get lost in the process of choosing a direction. In California we have exceptional CC filled with exceptional students. But they should invest more in the counseling required to assist all students in finding their way to 4 year.
In my state some community colleges are great while others are not. Some of my fraternity brothers attended two years of junior college. One became president of the law school. Another, also an attorney, was considered the shoo-in candidate for Speaker of the House had the Democrats held the legislature three years ago. They didn’t, so he just complains in the press a lot about the Republicans! None of the guys who I knew that went to junior college were marginal students.
I asked people who could have done quite well starting out in a four-year college why they went to junior college. For brighter students, it’s generally free. But the big factor is whether the president of the junior college is an active and popular participant in community affairs. In other words, the junior college president is considered a good family friend.
In my opinion, a good junior college can teach the somewhat marginal student the skills needed to succeed at the college level. But it all depends on the quality of the institution.
Addendum: I do think the world may work a little differently where I live. I’m from Mississippi, and most counties are mostly semi-rural with anywhere from 20,000 to 50,000 population; most junior colleges serve five or six counties. There is a tendency for junior college presidents to stay with a single school for most or all of their lives, so they really are ingrained into community life.