@JHS Thank you for the very thoughtful post, and thanks to others as well who are providing such great insight. I am definitely aware of the weed our process. My D went to Richmond as a bio major and was an International Relations major by the end of the first semester. My S seems more dedicated to STEM, but I could easily see him moving toward research (as opposed to med school). Would a research track make UC an even better option given all the research resources/opportunities? Schools like Wooster/Rhodes love to talk about UG research options, but they obviously don’t have the same resources.
My kid said “no” to UChicago because we literally couldn’t afford it. But I think part of her was relieved to have an out. So every kid is different…
My kids both chose colleges where they were a little bit bigger than the average fish. This had nothing to do with future plans at the time; it was just a matter of preference. But the choices ended up serving them well. One ended up with a good GPA and access to a research experience that wouldn’t have been available to a student with a low GPA. The other ended up with an excellent GPA, which helped both in getting a first job (at a company that happened to value GPA) and in getting a merit scholarship for a graduate program later.
But they weren’t big fish in small ponds. They were 10-inch fish in ponds where the typical size is 8 inches.
And Marian that makes sense to me.
You don’t want to be a minnow being eaten by the bigger fish (although for the right person with limited life opportunities before this, maybe you do) or a fish so big that you aren’t underwater most of the time (bored, without sufficient academic challenges, in sea of unmotivated students while you have motivation and skills). A bit of a stretch is reasonable, and maybe a bit of a safety is reasonable too, especially if attached to no debt or if you just don’t want to stretch at this point in your life.
The small fish in big pond would probably work best if you have a program that really supports you well.
The big fish in small pond would work better if there is an honors program or a fairly high achieving top 25% that you can be part of along with reasonable faculty and facilities.
Regarding weeder classes, I do want to comment that for really well-prepared, high-achieving, hard-working kids, they may not really ever feel any threat of being weeded out. The worst part may be some emotional attachment to the seas of classmates that wash up and out of their dream majors (although I think I recall all my ex-engineer friends being quite cheerful). I can’t understand any school making a 97 a B, either you have to make the class much more rigorous and tests harder, or you have to let your well-prepared, hard-working kids get an A. If you get a big pre-med class out of that, well, maybe you should be looking for opportunities for them to attend med school rather than artificially weeding them out (or maybe offer some good medical ECs that will drive the unmotivated, people-adverse away). A high achieving ex-pre-med should not be leaving that major with a 3.0.
@Planner I think you nailed it with this:
“So, if a student’s top priority in choosing a college is getting into a good medical school, the student might be better off being a big fish in a small(er) pond. But if your son really wants to attend Chicago because of the education and academic environment (“life of the mind”) it offers, then going there might be worth the “risk”—especially since, statistically, there’s a good chance he’ll change his mind about his major/career.”
I guess it really does come down to my son making a good and informed decision based on what he envisions both for his college experience and his future after college. Unfortunately, that’s a lot to weigh for an 18 year old. Perhaps that is why parents collect information but kids often make this call on “gut feel” and maybe that’s for the best…
@Booajo for med school admissions do you think there is a meaningful difference between a 3.5 student at UC and a 3.5 student at Wooster or Rhodes? I became concerned about Wooster when I heard about a girl who had a 4.0 from Wooster and ended up at Central Michigan med (no slap to CMU but I was surprised she didn’t get into a higher ranked school with a 4.0). What about Kenyon, Emory, Davidson. Would you put them in the middle tier?
always be the big fish!
but make no mistake …do not think that your child will be the big fish at a school like rhodes or college of wooster!
that said I think c.o.w. or rhodes would be a better undergrad experience.
@boatlift wrote:
That students could have been a Michigan resident? From what I hear about the med school world, just getting into a med school is a big deal. Niece from top-tier , private undergrad with high stats+ all other goodies got into her home state med school. It was her only acceptance. Another niece with high stats from a public ivy is on her second round of med school apps.
Here are the stats:
https://www.aamc.org/download/321442/data/factstablea1.pdf
@mom2collegekids frequently posts about med school, and undergrad - I didn’t read though all the posts on this topic; Her kid went via the big fish among medium fish approach, I believe. Maybe she has chimed in already.
“Big fish” is probably the wrong term. Maybe more “not a guppy.”
“for med school admissions do you think there is a meaningful difference between a 3.5 student at UC and a 3.5 student at Wooster or Rhodes?”
- 3.5 is too low for med. school. Aim at A in every single class at college. There is no reason to aim at 3.5
Hearing all this obsession over grades makes me glad my kids aren’t interested in med school
Honestly, @MiamiDAP, no one is AIMING for a 3.5. Everyone aims for a 4.0. Not everyone will attain it.
Just because your daughter did something, that doesn’t mean that every other person in the universe can, will, or even should do it, too.
Different strokes for different folks. I felt frustrated and trapped in my small pond. I wanted to swim in the ocean, and hang the consequences.
I do strongly recommend sitting in on multiple classes at Wooster or wherever before making a decision. If he feels challenged and inspired there, then maybe it’s a win-win.
Exactly. It’s just a question to ask your kid to ask themselves. (And also to observe for yourself.) I don’t have the answer for my kid yet, only that there’s a happy medium somewhere.
It would help if, rather than one poster just saying her kid got a 4.0 at some public and had a smooth route into med school and residency, the schools were named, for reference. Some UG colleges are more supportive or plain old easier.
OP needs to figure out if some smaller pond is really nurturing, if the son sticks to med ideas, and has the oxygen he will need. Or not. Again, small schools can weed, too. Sometimes larger schools just have the broader support in place.
@boatlift Yes, it is a lot to weigh. And ultimately, a good decision now doesn’t guarantee a good outcome. People tend to equate the outcome with the decision, but in reality, they’re two separate (though often related) things. So if your son chooses Chicago, does well there, and is successful in his postgraduate plans, he’ll likely feel that his decision to attend Chicago was a good one. If he does poorly, or simply not as well as he would have liked, and ends up with somewhat compromised postgraduate plans, he’ll probably think his decision to attend Chicago wasn’t a good one.
As I mentioned, though, there are so many unknowns and factors that can come into play after a student is actually in college that there’s really no “safe bet.” Chicago, like other top schools, offers experiences and opportunities your son will be less likely to have at “lesser” schools. It also, perhaps more uniquely, offers a quite different student body. Yes, there will be other bright students at any school, but the preponderance of them at schools like Chicago is, for many students, a positive. Just as an example, the conversations your son has with his dorm mates may be at a higher, more interesting level than those he’d typically have elsewhere. I think this may be especially true at Chicago, where most incoming students are attracted to learning for learning’s sake, not just as a stepping-stone to graduate school, career, etc.
Your son should think carefully about what he wants out of a college education. Preparation for a future career is certainly one aspect of that, but it’s not the only one, especially at a place like Chicago. Another factor to consider is location, not just in terms of weather (Chicago’s is notoriously bad, especially in the winter) and proximity to home but also in relation to access. For a premed student, Chicago, and other well-located schools like it, offers outstanding access to medical facilities and research opportunities. That, plus the caliber of his future classmates (and professors), may be enough to tip the scales in favor of being a smaller fish in a big pond.
Speaking as a BA/MD from UChi, few more data points to consider (caveat being things may have changed significantly since my ancient days):
- I believe many med schools still give some preference to undergrads from same institution. This would be one advantage to attending a U with a med school, although I realize this is not something to count on.
- Having a med school on the same campus as the UG college (which UC does) is quite helpful. Many U's have a separate campus (Columbia, Harvard, JHU, Northwestern, Tufts etc) that makes volunteering, medical research, attending visiting lectures etc logistically difficult when one has to take a bus to an off campus site. I had an UG friend who was involved in research with a med school faculty and it was pretty easy for him to slide into an MD/PhD slot at UC. His apartment was a bit of a distance from campus so his lab was where he hung out between classes etc.
- During DD's college tour, we visited with my college friends scattered about the country. She found them to be an intelligent, interesting group of people whom she loved talking with, reinforcing the PR she was receiving from the College. She ended up applying to UChicago EA after saying for years that she wanted to forge her own path that did not include mom's alma mater.
- The breadth of classes I was required to take at UC incidentally led me to develop a non-medical academic interest. After 20+ years of medicine, I am now pursuing this interest on the side, just for fun. My medical colleagues often comment how they wished they had a similar option.
I am not saying these are either unique to UChicago nor reasons to attend UChicago, just sharing my own experience through the retro-spectroscope.
Is that because of an actual preference per se, or due to a pre-med who does well in undergraduate research and/or pre-med extracurriculars at the medical school is likely to gain an extra boost because the medical school faculty have seen his/her work in person?
Also, some schools have BA/BS->MD programs whose students attend the same school for undergraduate and medical school.
I’d take a careful look at the quality of career services at any college my kid was interested in (and I did), particularly if the kid thinks he/she is interested in medicine. Since statistically, it is more likely that your kid WON’T become an MD than it is that your kid does, what happens next? Career service like at Chicago (very, very strong IMHO) or a big black binder with some xeroxed “job openings” that your kid can apply for? A robust alumni network for job shadowing and advice? And an active interviewing season, right on campus, for both summer and permanent jobs? Advisers in the career office who know Fulbright/Marshall/Rhodes, Peace Corps vs. Americorps, Teach For America vs. alternative credentialing to teach K-12?
Yeah, sure, your kid is pre-med, loves it, goes to med school. That’s the direct route. But for most premeds, it’s “I hate organic chem, now what?” and you need to make sure your kid is at a college with a career services function staffed by professionals who know grad schools, fellowships, corporate careers, NGO careers, etc.
Don’t get lost in the med school discussions right now- you’ve got a 17 year old who is likely to change his mind. I know at least half a dozen kids who opted for the “this will be a slam dunk for med school” option only to discover that the terrific med school advising doesn’t translate well into other fields. And if you are at a remote LAC and are trying to create your own interview opportunities for summer internships because no corporations come to interview…
IMHO if med school is truly his ultimate aspiration, go to whichever school at which he can attain the highest GPA.