Big fish in little pond or little fish in big pond?

College Search & Selection
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@jym626 I feel stupid but I do not know the difference between and honors college and honors school. Can you explain?

I need to understand this better. I did not realize it would impact her ability to finish in 4 years. I’m so grateful to everyone for the input! I’m learning a lot.

Rice keeps coming up. We need to relook at Rice!

@happymomof1 We could pay for her to go a $71k school if we didn’t have three other children behind her. We are letting her apply in the off chance she gets in and they offer her money. Even $10K a year would impact our ability and / or willingness to pay. She knows, we’ve told her.

22

@968Mom


[QUOTE=""]
We will not qualify for financial aid but schools like Duke at $71K are too much of a stretch. We can probably reasonable manage up to $50K a year. <<

[/QUOTE]

Well, let’s start here. You will not get financial aid and your budget is $50K. Then why are you even talking about Duke, Princeton, Columbia, Johns Hopkins, etc. ?? They all exceed your budget. They have two strikes against them – her scores are likely too low to get in, and you cannot afford them even if she gets accepted. Cross them off your list.


[QUOTE=""]
I don't think it's a great idea for her to go to an Ivy or Duke where every student is a alpha dog / student. On the other hand, others might argue that it's better to be challenged than at the top of your class. I would love to hear people opinions on this. <<

[/QUOTE]

This issue is now moot. You cannot afford the schools that are most likely to create the environment you fear. See, we’re making great progress here.

Georgia Tech and UT-Austin are pushing right up against your budget limits, if not outright exceeding them. Now Georgia Tech certainly will be a pressure cooker environment. If her scores are on the lower side for GT and you fear she might not succeed in that environment, those factors plus cost might make GT not the best choice for her.

UT, I don’t know about the environment. It’s great for engineering, but the cost.

What’s wrong with University of Florida? It’s a great university with solid engineering, and will be well within your budget. Are you absolutely sure she will get accepted there?

OK so she’s applied to a number of reach schools that you cannot afford, GT and Texas which will stretch your budget, and I assume UF.

What about Purdue? It is a premium engineering school that will cost about $42K for OOS. It is ranked #9 for engineering in USNWR.

Texas A&M comes in at $48K per year but here is the caveat – if she can get ANY scholarship of at least $1000, they will reduce her tuition from OOS to in-state. come to think of it, I think Texas does the same thing. OK – TAMU and UT should be on the list.

Virginia Tech – #16 engineering, $39K / year. heck yes.

University of Minnesota is strong in engineering and costs about $33K per year (tuition, fees, room & board) for OOS students. That’s well within your budget. She could do the Honors program too.

Ohio State & NC State are each about $40K / yr and are highly regarded for engineering. are they THAT much better than Florida? they do have scholarships she could compete for that might make them more attractive.

i would scrap the Ivies / reaches and Georgia Tech. here’s a revised college list:

Florida
Purdue
Texas
Texas A&M
Virginia Tech
Minnesota

that’s a really solid core of excellent engineering schools that are ALL within your budget (assuming you get the UT/TAMU OOS tuition waiver). MAYBE add a reach or two IF you can afford them, otherwise don’t bother. maybe add Ohio State and/or NC State if you think they look like desirable alternatives to UF.

lastly check what the SAT Critical Reading+Math score is. the Writing does not matter nearly as much as the CR+M total. she might qualify for full tuition at Alabama and/or Ole Miss. check the auto full tuition list:

http://automaticfulltuition.yolasite.com/

and check the big scholarships list:

http://competitivefulltuition.yolasite.com/

tell her not to stress out because your budget is giving her some really good options. seriously, an engineering degree from Purdue or really any of the schools listed above will serve her very well.

23

PS – i agree that Rice should be your reach if you insist on one. but at $60K per year that still exceeds the budget.

24

@968Mom


[QUOTE=""]
We could pay for her to go a $71k school if we didn't have three other children behind her. We are letting her apply in the off chance she gets in and they offer her money. <<

[/QUOTE]

run the Net Price Calculators on these reach schools before you apply to any of them. that will tell you how much each will cost and whether or not it is worth applying there.

25

@Wien2NC In regards to Texas A&M, she has received a scholarship that exceeds $1000. I think the problem (or rather, one of the many) is that we don’t have any idea what schools are good, which have boiler pot environments (well, some we sort of know like GIT and Columbia) etc. I just feel overwhelmed with all of it.

26

@Wien2NC So the schools on my new list are not boiler pots?

27

Rice is like some others where admissions is difficult to predict.

Not all kids at top names are aplha dogs. Not at all. What they are is (usually) well prepped for the work among other well-prepped peers.

Also, what are her engineering or math-sci related activities? At some of the privates named, that’s going to matter. They want to see the interest has been pursued. And the curve ball: why does she want engineering?

28

@968Mom

i would contact the admissions offices at Texas and TAMU, describe the scholarship, and ask if it qualifies her for the OOS tuition waiver. and if it does, apply there. both of them are cream of the crop engineering programs.

here are the USNWR rankings for Undergrad Engineering:

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/engineering-doctorate

i don’t like to rely too much on these rankings but they do give an idea what schools are good for engineering. these are generally recognized as great engineering schools:

Purdue
Texas
Texas A&M
Virginia Tech
Minnesota

but i cannot say which are pressure-cooker environments. i would think that GT and Columbia would be more stressful than any of them. Purdue, VT, and Minnesota all fit under your budget, and UT and TAMU will likely offer that OOS waiver.

i also think U Florida is really good for engineering. if there is any chance she does not get into UF, then Iowa State is great for engineering too, and fits well under budget.

if her CR+Math SAT qualifies her for full tuition at Alabama, then that becomes an appealing option.

29

[QUOTE=""]
So the schools on my new list are not boiler pots? <<

[/QUOTE]

i have heard thru the grapevine that GT is incredibly high pressure and stressful. i do not know about Purdue. all i know is that Purdue is the highest-ranked engineering school that comes in well under your budget. for this reason i would cross off the Ivies / reaches / GT off your list and treat Purdue like your “reach.” on the list it is nestled between Cornell and Princeton. that’s pretty good company.

i suggest visiting the Purdue forum on this site for feedback on the environment there. also do the same for all the other schools you are now considering.

with a 2120 SAT it is highly likely that her Critical Reading + Math score is at least 1400. if that is the case then please apply to Alabama. she will receive the full-tuition Presidential Scholarship + $2500 per year Engineering scholarship. as you go thru this process it will be nice to have a virtually-free option in your back pocket. plus they are right next door to Florida, and she might receive additional $$$ to sweeten the pot. for now, save your $$ on Ivy applications and have her apply to Alabama today.

OK, so now we have:

Alabama
Florida
Purdue
Virginia Tech
Minnesota

and if she qualifies for OOS tuition waiver:
Texas
Texas A&M

i would concentrate on putting together all your application materials for these schools first before investing any more time looking at reaches. some of them have deadlines for scholarships that are fast approaching. for example Alabama’s is Dec 1. some may be in October. it would be a shame to miss out on any possible scholarships from these schools because you missed a scholarship deadline.

just for kicks she might try for the McDermott Scholarship at UT-Dallas. she will probably qualify for a full-tuition scholarship there anyway, but the McDermott is a phenomenal scholarship.

30

sorry i forgot to tag you in the previous post @968Mom

31

She should get into UF and I think it’s her best option because we have it completely covered between prepaid, Bright Future Scholarship and the other scholarship she won. She did a two week camp at UF in biomedical research and felt ambivalent about the school. I guess I really want her to go to a school she loves and I want to feel that all the hard work she did was worth it.

32

@968Mom


[QUOTE=""]
I want to feel that all the hard work she did was worth it. <<

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She gets to go to UF for what sounds like very little cost. All the hard work she did WAS worth it.

From where I’m sitting the grass looks reeaallly green on your side of the fence.

I mean, if she doesn’t love the idea of UF, you could just bribe her. She might love it if you said, “You’ve saved us so much money we’re going to take a chunk of the savings and _____________ .” fill in the blank with whatever. get her a car, or a nice trip somewhere that she’s always wanted to visit, or just make a big donation to her bank account. it’s a lot cheaper than paying for Duke or Purdue, especially if you’ve got other kiddies in the college pipeline.

33

@968Mom - there is no “official” designation of what an Honors Program is compared to an Honors College. Schools will name things what they choose, and the quality of the program will vary based on the school’s level of commitment and the quality of the faculty associated with Honors.

Typically an Honors College is a separate division within a school - just like you have the School of Liberal Arts and Sciences, the School of Communication - there will be a separate school for Honors, with dedicated faculty permanently attached to Honors and teaching many of the Honors classes.

An Honors Program will typically have a faculty chair that may rotate every few years to different professors affiliated with different majors. Honors classes will often be taught by faculty across different departments, and may be a completely separate class with only Honors kids or may be a special section of an existing class that allows non-Honors kids in if there’s space.

Facilities vary by school - some have a separate building for Honors, some have living space set aside for Honors (either a dorm or floors in a dorm).

Some perks you may find in either an Honors Program or College include:

  • early registration (which can be a tremendous advantage at some schools)
  • additional mentors
  • enrichment opportunities (special speakers, tickets to plays/symphony, trips to museums)
  • smaller class sizes
  • more research opportunities

Some schools do restrict certain majors from participating in Honors, while others don’t restrict but the demands of the Honors curriculum might mean many students in demanding majors such as Engineering tend to drop out.

Honors programs/colleges are not restricted to just large public universities - they exist in schools of all size. And every program is different, so you need to do your research. I was very impressed with the Honors College at Valparaiso - and they had a large % of engineering students in Honors. Some other small, lesser-known privates that we looked at that had Engineering and Honors and might be good safeties for based on merit aid that might be available could be Scranton, Bradley, Fairfield, Loyola MD, U of Dayton. Bucknell, Lafayette, and Lehigh are names frequently mentioned on this board that could be options.

34

@968Mom

has she already applied to the Ivy / reach schools? because that’s a really bad idea. what happens if she actually gets into Duke? then you have to break it to her that you cannot afford to send her there. or, you guilt yourself into shelling out $280K when she could have gone to Florida for almost nothing.

the best case scenario would be for all of them to reject her. but that means you will have sunk $500 or so and wasted a bunch of her time on fruitless college applications.

do not spend any time or money on any college application unless you run the Net Price Calculator and get an affordable number.

35

Something else that we often gently advise on CC: if she’s getting “stressed” and is occasionally “miserable,” “runs with a very academically agressive crowd” that influences her sense of self, now may be the time to work on that, before she leaves home. A lot of kids just need some help gaining some perspective, learning to breathe and trust themselves.

36

I haven’t read all of your threads…or all of this one, so I apologize if this has already been said.

  1. Regardless of the college, a kid majoring in engineering will be with high achieving and bright kids.
  2. As alread said...ABET accreditation is what you should be looking for.
  3. My husband is an engineer who hires engineers. He says...look for an engineering program where you have the chance for some hands on work with via co-op programs or internships. When he hires, he looks for some kind of experience, not just college major and GPA.
  4. Pick a school where your daughter will be happy doing things that are NOT school related. Her engineering program will be challenging no matter where she goes. So...look for schools where there are other things she can enjoy with friends.
37

Big fish/Little fish applies less to engineering than it does to many other disciplines (it will still apply just not to the same degree assuming the universities are ABET accredited). Most of the kids applying to engineering programs will have higher grades and scores than the school as a whole until you reach the highest tier schools. If she wants to be an engineer there are numerous schools throughout the country that will prepare her well. The large research universities will offer the most opportunities to meet with potential employers, but, you will also have the most competition. Some schools like Rose Hulman and Miami of Ohio are very undergraduate focused and might be places that may seem less competitive and offer more support. Some schools emphasize cooperative education programs that can help pay for an education and give your student real work experience, some offer and support them but your student must be proactive in seeking them and a few will not allow co-ops.

As others have mentioned schools like Purdue, VA Tech, and Ohio State would be good matches. My D is a Purdue student so I can tell you that tuition for Engineering students is in the $42-43000 per year range (a few thousand higher than standard tuition). When you apply you state a major, however, you are not put in a major until your freshman year is complete and you have finished their First Year Engineering program. Some majors require higher GPAs than others to be accepted into. She is a co-op student and the company she works for also has students from University of Louisville and the University of Cincinnati. Students from each of those schools have been offered full time positions after graduation.

Good luck in your search. Your D will have a lot of schools to consider.

38

Someone from Texas will need to verify, but I don’t believe UT Austin waives OOS tuition with a $1000 scholarship award. TAMU does.

39

It looks like UT Austin might. Take a look http://catalog.utexas.edu/general-information/registration-tuition-and-fees/tuition-and-fees/tuition-waivers/

40

@968mom,

The size of the fish is important, but the size of their teeth is even more important!

Scuba diving with whale sharks can be exhilarating, but scuba diving with great white sharks is dangerous.

ABET does not specify culture and it can vary dramatically from school to school.

The average retention rate across all engineering schools is 60%. The best retention rate is around 100%.

Ask about a school’s retention rate is and what programs they have in place to support and enhance it.