College Choice for Big Fish: A Big Pond or a Smaller Pond?

Parents Forum
1

<p>tsdad and I had just the beginning of a discussion of colleges and which to do in the following situation:</p>

<p>Assume a student - John - has all of the necessary credentials to join Elite College (EC), which has the best program for what John wants to study. The program is so well known and respected that the acceptance rate is almost a crapshoot. John applies and is accepted. But John also applied to the University of the Second Tiers (UST). It has a great program as well, but not nearly as well-known. This is a saftey for John and he is at the top of the applicants to UST's program. He is easily accepted with offers of merit scholarships.</p>

<p>So, the choice: </p>

<p>A. If John goes to EC, he definitely has the bragging rights. The name EC on the diploma will mean a lot, especially in the area of John's interest, and he can also make some contacts into the industry via the faculty. A Big Fish in a Big Pond, but surrounded by lots of other Big Fish!</p>

<p>B. If John goes to UST, he will quickly rise to the top of his class and become one of the school's STARS. He will get the awards and the faculty attention and the special grants and big money scholarships. He will get the best internships the school has to offer. A Big Fish in a smaller pond, but surrounded by smaller fish.</p>

<p>Most people on CC would still choose A. But there are some very good reasons to think about B. For example, my son has had great success with option B: money, attention, the best the school has to offer, and some big successes.</p>

<p>Anyway, I wanted to widen the discussion and find out what people thought.</p>

2

<p>Does UST also have other "great" programs in other majors in case John changes his mind?</p>

<p>This was one of the issues son this year faced when choosing his school for the fall. Daughter last year also had a similar dilemma and went with UST for their "better program" only to switch mid-year to a not-so-great program that she would not have choosen the first time around. In her case she would have been better off at the EC which offered numerous "well-known" programs. However, her sport still plays a large role so she remains.</p>

<p>Kat</p>

3

<p>One thing that should be considered is whether grad school/prof school is in the offing. Going to Elite College and graduating in the bottom 50% of the class (60% /70%--who knows that the level is) may preclude acceptance into a grad/prof program of choice. Graduating in the top 5% of lower tier college can keep that dream alive.</p>

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<p>The argument ellemenope makes, and that dig referred to also in his OP, is just the argument a school like Tulane made in recruiting students like my S. I think it holds water.</p>

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<p>D went to school of music at UTT (University of the Third Tier) but music school itself highly ranked. Switched major within that school of music and quickly became the big fish(BT) in her new specialized area. Got all the best advising,best mentoring,best introductions for grad school contacts,best reccomendations,best senior thesis committee.Moved over to top ranked grad program with nationally known mentor in chosen area of study due to all that(connections really really help),also tuition paid plus livable stipend.Wouldnt trade her undergrad experience for anything.I say go for the UST or UTT!!</p>

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<p>It's certainly possible to go to a top grad or professional school from a lower tier college. However, the idea that it's EASIER to do that from a lower tier college than an upper tier college is nonsense. </p>

<p>I'm more familiar with law school than grad school. I just checked the sites for Harvard and Yale Law. There are a total of 9 Tulane grads enrolled in both schools according to the most recent data. That's for all 3 years of law school. So, on average, no more than 2 Tulane grads start at both combined in any given year. While I can't tell you how many Tulane grads applied to Harvard or Yale Law over that 3 year period, I can tell you, because the data is on the lsac (Law School Admissions Council ) site if you know where to look for it, that 913 Tulane grads applied to ABA accredited law schools during that 3 year period--and yes, before you ask, that's actual students, not applications. So, please send anyone who thinks attending a college like Tulane will give him a better chance of getting into a top ranked law school than going to a more selective college my way because I think I can sell him the Brooklyn Bridge. </p>

<p>I know much less about med schools. However, two of my young neighbors followed the "go to less known college and do well" approach to medical school. One got off the waiting list for one American med school last July. Until that happened, she was heading overseas. The other went to a lower ranked school where he was a <em>star</em> and was wait listed at one school---where he has an "in." It's been suggested to him that he take some additional science courses at a better known college and reapply after retaking the MCATS. MCATS are NOT aptitude tests and how well prepared you are matters. Now, he really wants to be a doctor and I suspect he will retake some basic science courses at a local college, retake the MCATs and reapply. If he gets in, his undergrad college will doubtless then include him in the % of students applying to med school who were accepted, leaving out the little detail that he had to go take more courses at another college to do it. </p>

<p>This argument has been held a gazillion times on this board. I doubt I'm going to change anyone's mind...and freely confess you're not going to change mine. I look at lists like this: </p>

<p><a href="http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>and wonder how people can persist in believing that you have a better chance of getting into a top law school from a less selective college. </p>

<p>Plus, IMO, it's just not true that you can look at someone's incoming "stats" and figure out where they'll stand in the college class on graduation day. If it were that easy to "beat the system" the top law, med and grad programs would be filled with kids from second tier colleges--they aren't. There certainly are many kids who come from second tier colleges and do well --but IMO, the data suggests that it's EASIER to get into top programs from top undergraduate colleges.</p>

<p>Now, I hasten to add, that does NOT, IMO, answer the question of where your own kid should go. There are kids who tend to do better when they are at the top of the heap. There are others who don't. The studies that have been done--I can't give you a link, but they exist--show that males tend to fall in the first group; females, in the second. So, if your kid is the kind of kid--usually male--who enjoys being the <em>star</em> take that into account in choosing a college. But, if your kid is the one who does better when he has a "rabbit" to chase, take that into account. And, while it may not be politically correct to say so, lots of girls are unhappy socially when there aren't a fair number of guys who can outshine them in class. Take that into account too.</p>

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<p>Perhaps a debate will grow regarding how the OP is defining "top grad school," but who says everyone wants or needs to go to Harvard or Yale as the next step after undergrad?
A friend from high school was admitted to Princeton and Duke, but decided to stay close to home and his girlfriend, so he attended UF and later, UF Law School. He specialized in constitutional law and ended up arguing before the Supreme Court on the ballot count issue during the 2000 presidential election. I think he's happy with his career and his lifestyle.</p>

<pre><code> Unless the life-long bragging rights that come with a prestige sheepskin are that important to him, I think John should go with option B and feather his future nest with the merit aid money.
</code></pre>

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<p>In my son's case, it was a matter of fit. He (we all) fell in love with the school and the friendliness of the students. It had the great program he wanted, and there was no gaming of the system going on.</p>

<p>But, you may be right about leading vs. following. He loves to be in that leadership position.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
And, while it may not be politically correct to say so, lots of girls are unhappy socially when there aren't a fair number of guys who can outshine them in class. Take that into account too.

[/quote]
And thankfully some girls like to kick the guys butts in class. In fact, some take great glee in it. ;) As long as we're taking things into account , let's take that into account, too. (5 of the top 7, and 7 of the top 10 students at D's high school are girls. I think times they are a'changin'. Finally. At least I can I hope so. )</p>

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<p>Interesting topic.</p>

<p>I tend to like the idea of the 'reach' for the student (or an employee, or anyone) so I tend to lean toward them entering a program and environment that they'll find challenging for them. For some of the top students, they'll more likely find more challenge in the higher-end colleges but other students might have an equivalent (for them) challenge in the other colleges. If the goal was just to achieve a high GPA and be near the top of the class, they'd seek out the lowest end college they can find (I know I carried this point out to the extreme).</p>

<p>I do agree that GPAs are affected by the school and major selected and a 2.5 at one location could really be 'worth more' than a 3.5 at another school. I hope the high-end grad schools take this into account during their admissions. I'd be interested in hearing from other poster's experiences on this one.</p>

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<p>Not sure your thesis holds up to the prestige vs lower tier magnifier as well as it holds up to the small (rural) vs large (urban) school argument. It is easier to become a big fish in a smaller rural school. Full stop.</p>

<p>As for Harvard medical school, I know a USA Today scholar who was accepted to H as an undergrad and turned it down for a second tier state school. After graduation, she did a three year volunteer stint and then applied to med school. Again, accepted into Harvard but again, turned it down for well known state program.</p>

<p>She's graduating from med school in a few weeks and has accepted a residency in a lesser hospital in order to get the best experience in her field of interest.</p>

<p>If she decides to apply for fellowhsips, she will no doubt be accepted into H again. </p>

<p>One story, but it does follow the cream of the crop will rise to the top philosophy. Once a USA Today Scholar, always a USA Today Scholar and so forth.</p>

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<p>"If John goes to UST, he will quickly rise to the top of his class and become one of the school's STARS."</p>

<p>That is a big assumption. A lot depends on John and how he adapts to UST. John may not be all that stimulated and may not push to be at the top of his class. He might also find that UST has quite a few decent students and rising to the top is not all that easy. John's rank may have been even better if he went to EC. The programs and academic standards may fit him better and he may be excited about learning and really excel.</p>

<p>Most of us do better when we face challenges and tend to slack off when the going is easy. Some kids do better when they are getting a lot of rewards and recognition. So I can see where some kids may need or do better at UST. By college age, I think some defeats and challenges are more appropriate than constant rewards. After 12 years of being disappointed at the offerings of public secondary schools, I would opt for the more challenging school. The issue of money can cloud the choices, but I think that is a whole separation discussion. I am not concerned about the strategy for graduate school admissions. The student who learns the most is the most likely to succeed with graduate admissions.</p>

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<br>


<br>

<p>It is NOT easy to be in the top 5% of any college! </p>

<p>The fact is that you just don't know where it is that you'll finally hit your high point of excellence--I was in the top 5% of my large university and I got into a super-selective law school. At law school, I finally met my high point and was just one of the unwashed middle of the pack. </p>

<p>If I had gone to HYP for undergrad, how would I have done? Would I have met my high point at undergrad and been part of the middle of the pack there? Who knows? But I do know that being in the middle of the pack from HYP can cut off options.</p>

<p>I knew a kid in law school--he and his wife had gone to Harvard undergrad. He did very well at H and was accepted at the super-selective law school. His wife was part of the unwashed middle and wasn't accepted. He was pretty miffed--"She went to Harvard!" he said--"that should stand for something." </p>

<p>It does--elite law schools/grad programs may be willing to dip lower into the ranks of HYP grads for their students--the number of students that these schools take from HYP is out of proportion to the number of students applying from all over the country. </p>

<p>If you go to HYP and excel, then the world is your oyster. But half of the class has got to be in the bottom half of the class--and that can have later consequences.</p>

<p>The same thing goes for going to a difficult prep school vs. public suburban high school...a topic that has been discussed before.</p>

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<p>
[quote]

I hope the high-end grad schools take this into account during their admissions. I'd be interested in hearing from other poster's experiences on this one.

[/quote]

With a 3.4 GPA from MIT, I was accepted into all of the top PhD programs in biology. There were, undoubtedly, students with 3.9 and 4.0 GPAs from other schools who were not admitted in favor of my 3.4, which is not particularly high, even by MIT standards.</p>

<p>I loved my big pond. The other fish were terribly interesting. :)</p>

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<p>in my opinion it varies by school, because Elite College can easily be University of Pennsylvania for Business, and UST can easily be Boston University(where they have strong business). In my opinion, if the extra financial aid would help out Boston would be the better choice.</p>

<p>However, if UST is San Diego State(who also has strong business), the choice would be to go for Pennsylvania, as the opportunities would outshine greatly the ones you could get from San Diego State.</p>

<p>The answer to the question all varies a lot one what the UST really is, because UST can easily be UCLA/USC to EC Harvard. UCLA and USC with Honors would be as strong as Harvard alone></p>

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<p>I am reading this thread with great interest. My daughter is a high school senior and her high school pond was a very small one indeed. We talked a good deal about small pond vs big pond as she was deciding which schools to apply to and then again when she was weighing her acceptances. </p>

<p>We could never come to a landing on this. Would she stand out more and thus have more opportunities at a less competitive school, or would she be better off being more challenged at a more competitive school even if this meant that she would have less of a chance of standing out?</p>

<p>In the end she applied to a range of schools and decided she would rethink this once she knew what her choices were. Once the acceptances arrived she was extremely fortunate to have a lot of choices. She narrowed her final selection to four ivies so now we had the same debate but on a slightly different scale -- would she be better off at one of the tip top ivies or at one of the "lesser" ivies? Again we did a lot of arguing back and forth on this. In the end she chose a "lesser" ivy. Maybe in four years I will have an answer on this one, but right now I feel I could argue both sides equally well.</p>

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<p>"Maybe in four years I will have an answer on this one.."</p>

<p>No, you won't. As in life, if everything goes well you will think all went well. However, if something goes wrong you will second guess every decision you made.</p>

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<p>shelf-life,
I don't think a "lesser" ivy can compare with the choice of a third tier State U. I am not sure what sides you could agrue and what you expect to learn about this in 4 years.</p>

<p>I might have an answer a bit sooner. My D is doing a summer session to take some electives at UST. She had a bad final for the second semester of calculus at her EC so she will also be taking another semester of calculus at UST. From what she can tell, the 3rd semester at UST looks like her 2nd semester so it will be interesting to see the difference.</p>

19

<p>

Jonri,
I would like to know how to find this information so I can look at data for other colleges. Can you tell me how to find it?</p>

20

<p>This choice was complicated for both my daughters. D1 was sure she wanted #1 school and was accepted to Duke, Cornell, UCBerkeley among others. When push came to shove Duke and Cornell were too expensive and no aid was offered. Being in CA she chose Berkeley. After 2 months she realized it was a mistake. She did not do well as a "little fish". Long story short she came home re-evaluated and is now at University of Maryland College Park. Extremely happy with being "East Coast" and doing very well. D2 also faced similar choices but knew she wanted to stay in CA. Turned down Berkeley and UCLA and is at Cal Poly SLO. She couldn't be happier. Is given lots of perks as honors etc. Each one had to make the choice. Decide what really mattered to them for the next few years.</p>