Does anyone have any insight on how difficult the biological sciences major is at Vandy, and would I be wiser to do a minor instead if I already have a pretty challenging major (at Blair)? Is it impossible to get an A?
Also, does anyone know the benefits of molecular biology vs organismal biology as a concentration in terms of pre-med, difficulty, and appeal to employers/grad schools?
Any insight at all would be appreciated.
If you like biology, just do your best…it’s STEM at a major research university, so it will be fairly (and bluntly, very demanding at times) demanding but worth it if you truly like it. Also, comparing marketability of biological sciences degrees outside of engineering is silly. It depends on what research and opps you did to bolster the experience in any areas you choose and what types of jobs you want to apply to. Jobs in STEM want to see experience and decent grades related to the job you are applying to. Graduate schools do too. Also graduate schools are extremely specialized, so you can apply to either program (or ones more aligned w/your UG experience) if applying to masters or doctoral programs in biological science. They will look for a decent GPA and exposure to research (1.5-2 years, presentations, a thesis, etc).
Pre-med, choose the one you’ll like most so you do better in it. Med. schools just want to see a strong transcript, MCAT(so take courses/instructors that prep you for it. Preferably, more research and problem based science courses over content and regurgitation types. Shamefully most biology depts will have plenty of instructors who choose to emphasize the latter, even at elites). In the meantime, please don’t fall into the trap of thinking that certain majors are “better” or market better for medical schools. Take their requirements, try to get good MCAT training, do as well possible, and ultimately major in whatever. You can even keep just the major in Blair and dabble in lots of the biology courses beyond med. school requirements so as to get exposure to the MCAT topics and ways of thing. Either way, I will leave it to someone else to describe the specifics of those programs.
I could comment on the intermediate course materials (some are great and some are “meh” like at other schools, depends on instructor). I’ve seen but it isn’t worth it more so than giving you a more realistic view of how you should view your STEM education. The majors themselves prepare you for jobs/grad/prof. school much less than your experience (again, research, internship, TAships, study abroad, etc) and course and instructor(instead of who gives the A’s with the least amount of effort, who is challenging, gives fair grades, preps. for MCAT/GRE subject tests, and tries to know students and can write great rec. letters, an A from a teacher that is ultimately going to write lukewarm rec. letters is meaningless) selection within the major. I just wanted to give feedback on this, because I have a pre-med friend irrationally worrying about stuff like this, thinking that adding a second major in biology will increase his marketability to med. schools (though he is neuroscience already) because he has only okay grades. The fact is, marketability should not be a consideration if grades already aren’t great. Either he is truly passionate for the other subject or not. Med. schools will look at his grades in STEM courses and not the major on his diploma as the most important thing.
@bernie12 WOW! So much good information. Thank you so much for all of that – lots to consider.
If you’re looking at premed, the majority of students here going premed are in Neuroscience. Its rumored to be a little easier than biology.
@AnnieBot But if I’m interested in going toward research and work in gastroenterology or genetics or a combination of the two, neuroscience would be pretty out of left field, no? I know biological science is harder (especially the molecular track) but I want to learn something relevant and useful and that will give me opportunities to do things like AMGEN in the future.
Any insight on the molecular biology concentration within the major versus the evolutionary/ecological/organismal concentration?
Straight out of the mouth of my MCB major big(he graduated this year):
“MCB is a little harder than than EEOB, but not by much. Neuro from what I heard is a little easier. The hard classes for the bio majors are biochem and genetics.”
@AnnieBot Huh. That’s good to know. I know the chemistry sequences are going to be very challenging and I am dreading them slightly but we’ll see – there are lots of tutoring services available for free at Vandy so I’ll likely hit that up a lot.
What did your son think of physics? Did he have to take calculus as a premed? I’m really worried about doing college calculus, and I’m a joint music major more interested in scientific research than I am straight calculus and I really want to avoid it at all costs. Any thoughts there??
Uhhh I’m a sophomore, and I APed out of the Calc 1+2, but from what I heard it was a huge weed out. Calc 3 is much more manageable. If you can use AP credit, do it.
The bio major is challenging. Whether it’s “impossible to get an A” depends on how rigorous your classes were in high school and how prepared you are for hard work. Blair+bio double major is doable, I know some people who went that route. You might be crunched for time at certain points though.
Some people say neuro is a slightly easier major if you make your schedule right (neuro includes both bio and psych classes, so you can just load up on the psych classes). If you’re more interested in biology and want to do research in non-brain related areas, just do a bio major. It’s a common major and not all that much harder.
Molecular & Cellular concentration seems to be the more common pre-med track major here, mostly because the classes in this track are more related to what is tested on the MCAT. It’s probably a little bit harder because biochem and cell bio are required. I would stop worrying about what is “best” and just do what you are most interested in though. One track vs. the other won’t have a significant effect on your GPA or MCAT. The only thing that it might matter for is getting a position in a lab doing the type of research you are interested in.
You can check out the list of classes required by the majors here:
http://as.vanderbilt.edu/biosci/undergraduate/majors.php#eeob
And descriptions of those classes here:
http://as.vanderbilt.edu/biosci/undergraduate/courses.php
Just see what interests you more. Don’t rush yourself though; you can decide your concentration later. As for bio/blair, just go in knowing you will do blair, and are interested in bio. Take low level bio classes. If you think it’s doable based on that, plan on a bio major. If it becomes too hectic as you become an upperclassmen, just stop taking bio upper levels and get the minor instead.
^Really good advice
@fdgjfg Thank you for that incredible advice. I really appreciate it. I will take things slowly and try to avoid that infamous freshman year burnout that many fall prey to…
Chemistry: I don’t find them to be as challenging as many comparable schools (judging by my eye as a former double major in chem and biology and someone interested in chemistry education) so I wouldn’t fear the raw difficulty so much as keeping up with the competition (curve unlikely on those types of exams. Too many people will score well, especially if they have AP/IB experience or credit). General chemistry there is apparently standardized across sections (the exams, don’t know about the teaching quality) and has a biased toward close-ended items (60% MC, T/F, matching, 40% problem solving). Didn’t appear to be many true A/B separator (questions that require a lot more mathematical manipulation than practiced questions or a different level of conceptual understanding than you anticipated. Basically curveballs and time-killers) questions on the exams. I think dealing with the time crunch and avoiding being “tricked” (for close-ended, there is no partial credit of course, so if you misread or misunderstand one detail they throw in…kiss those points goodbye) is a key on those exams (that likely functions as an A/B separator).
The math classes (that I imagine many pre-healths would take) seem kind of challenging (like similar or even a little harder than other schools. I was trying to pick up some calculus/algebraic concepts again, so personally use the 155 problems to train myself…as the course websites I believe are still public for a couple of instructors) because it isn’t just the calculus. Many problem in the math 155 stuff I saw have you jump through many algebraic hoops before doing the actual calculus whereas many schools (and even 150 appeared) are much more pure “cookbook” (problem types are very similar in style and rigor to ones in HW or class and you kind of just apply the algorithms you were taught, with 155, I had to be more skilled in approaching them and the answer keys also implied this).
This is honestly how I think of Vandy’s chemistry (ochem and gen. chem that is, courses that all pre-healths take) vs. other comparable schools except that Vandy is more on the cookbook side for chemistry (including organic`-again, seems like many instructors don’t have true A/B separators and exams are generally more standard level with deeper level of theory than less competitive schools. Like at many selective schools including Vanderbilt, first semester will often emphasize molecular orbital theory to some extent which typically isn’t covered at schools that don’t have really competitive admissions…the difference is that many of the other schools will present harder problems using the theory) and at other schools, instructors are more likely to write exams that need a curve . Physics, at least what my friend recently showed me from the life sciences sequence (second semester, he took the regular calc. based sequence first semester) is much like 155 (but he said the instruction is good, many apparently complain about math instruction…but there is RMP and I imagine Vanderbilt has its own rating system to figure that out) and the chemistry courses that I allude to where they expect you to apply and really understand it conceptually a lot more than normal. Definitely like or tougher than other places (and certainly my school which had much weaker instruction in math and physics than chemistry and the other natural sciences).
I have genetics and a bchem test on me because I was curious and can vouch for them being among the more challenging courses. Genetics in a good way (lots of problem solving) and bchem…kind of just stupid to be blunt, but nothing is new. Seems hardly no schools do undergraduate metabolic biochemistry courses correctly. It is a fact-filled festival chock full of specific MC questions (there were maybe a couple of higher level items per test that required students to apply. Some looked like they came straight from the GRE biochemistry exam) and then the free response was lots of fill-in-the blank and draw structures from memory (essentially drawing in sequential structures in a pathway specified by the exam writer). More challenging prompts basically called on students to regurgitate the details of a certain portion of a metabolic pathway to “explain” something. It appeared almost as if you didn’t truly have to understand much chemistry (other than how to draw organic structures and maybe some basic protein/enzyme kinetics) or anything for that matter. The course I speak of was the fall course with a Brame and some other guy…the guy I got them from said the means were consistently in the 80s but generally it was lots of work keeping up with that amount of material and having to know such nitty gritty details, and from experience, I believe him For me, seeing those exams were like deja vu sadly. Content overload and test items that required a level of detail that would likely disappear after the test. He was no fan either.
Don’t mention it. The best way to avoid freshman year burnout is intelligent scheduling. Basically, the only pre-med class you should be taking this year is gen chem (unless you’re an actual genius, like coming in as a cornelius scholar with a 36/4.0 who already took orgo in high school). Sophomore year is bio/physics, and junior year is orgo. Besides that, you should use ratemyprof to make sure that your other classes are easy, and take less than or equal to 15 hours.
You also had some questions on the other pre-reqs so I’ll go over those.
Gen Chem: challenging class, especially as a freshman, but doable.
Calc: Possibly the hardest of them all. 155 is the most failed class at Vanderbilt. It’s notorious for being poorly taught and unfairly tested. For med school you really only need 1 semester of calc. Many schools don’t require any calc at all, but I think it’s safe to take 1 semester.
Bio: Challenging due to the amount of content that you have to regurgitate.
Orgo: Challenging for same reason as bio.
Physics: The least challenging. Better curves, less time consuming lab, and less competitive/anti-student atmosphere. It’s technically “calculus based” but not too mathematically rigorous. You could get through it with any calc experience, like through AP calc in high school.
In my experience, the rule of thumb is: a score of “5” in the relevant AP class is necessary to earn an A in any of the early pre-reqs (chem/calc/bio). Every person I knew who got an A already had gotten a 5, and nobody that I knew without a 5 got an A. Similar for the other two. Once you become an upperclassman everyone is on a more even playing field. This isn’t to scare you or say it’s impossible, just that classes can be hard and you have to be realistic and play it safe based on your strengths and weaknesses. If you aren’t confident in your math skills and don’t have an extensive background, it might be a good idea to take calc over a summer (I actually did this route). If you have a 5 on AB then you would be fine taking 150/155a, and if you have a 5 on BC you would be fine taking 150/155b or 175. If you didn’t take AP chem, be extra careful about giving yourself an easy first semester so you have a lot of study time.
I don’t think it is as hard as @fdgjfg says the classes are, but the courses he has listed are relatively challenging. Of course if you’re a engineering/MCB major the courses get harder as you go. It’s never wrong to take a easy first semester of course.
Oh yeah if you have AP credit for chem, I highly recommend you scheduling freshman orgo (its a special class, I just came out of it and thought it was amazing).
@fdgjfg so do you think it would be completely unfeasible to take bio, chem, econ, US Elections or intro poli sci, and hebrew all at once? I know it’s a lot but I’m trying to decide between bio, econ, and poli sci for a major and would like to do so as early as I can.
@fdgjfg So in YES I signed up for BSCI 1510 and the lab (tried to get a certain teacher but the class was full so I’m on the waitlist for it – odds of getting off it?) Anyway, what is the difference between taking bio as a freshman and gen chem as a sophomore? Is it a bad idea to take BSCI freshman year since its mostly sophomores with more experience? This is all in addition to my 8+ mandatory Blair classes and ensembles, plus clubs and all this other stuff I want to do. Finding time to compose is going to be a real challenge, as I find it hard to be inspired when I have all these academic deadlines looming…
Any knowledge of Blair/Bio double majors and advice for starting out? Also, what do you know about the higher level sequences (2000 or 3000) for things like immunology etc? Will I have time to take them in my schedule as a Blair student?
@fdgjfg Also do you have recommendations for professors, either in chem or bio? (I’m trying to get Patton/Graham for Bio)
Gen Chem sophomore year is possible, but is definitely the less common route (not for any discernible reason though). There are a lot of freshman taking bio (who usually double up on bio/chem which makes for a hard freshman year) so you definitely wouldn’t be alone. I think you would be fine taking it if that’s what you choose to do; it’s just memorization based so you already have the skills to do it. As for professors: Todd is good for chem because she gives helpful notes. For bio, I don’t think it really matters. I took Graham/Patton because they were supposedly the easiest for some reason, but I didn’t find that to be necessarily true. All bio classes follow the same curve but have different tests (top 5% get an A, next 12% get an A-, next 15% B+, etc. if I remember correctly) so it’s really about doing well within your class.
The only real difference between the classes is chem is kind of an “immature” class, where it’s more like high school. You have online homework due many times a week, and a 1 hour discussion section a week, as well as tests. Bio is only tests and no homework. This doesn’t mean you have to take chem earlier, but it might be minorly annoying to have to jump through those hoops if you are a bit older.
I think you should be fine with taking it alongside Blair classes. I know that Blair classes are time consuming, but it’s not hard to get a good grade. I can’t speak to majoring in composition, but I know a girl who double majored in bio and harp performance and she seemed to do alright. She was in some bio upper levels I took so I think that should be fine as well.
I would say that would be a really difficult first semester. Poli sci and hebrew aren’t that hard. Econ is medium difficulty but takes time to study for. Gen chem and bio are both hard, and the labs are time consuming. But like I said previously, it just depends on how smart/well prepared you are. I knew a kid in my dorm who took bio/orgo + other hard classes freshman year and ended the year with a 3.9+ (although he did say it was hard). He was also a cornelius scholar with a 36 ACT, and is now getting an MD/PhD from Hopkins, so he was the closest thing to a genius I have met and I’m not sure mere mortals would have as good of a time.
So if you know you are really smart, and have 5’s in AP Chem, Bio, and Econ, (some or all) don’t let me hold you back and slow you down. However, if you are a more normal Vanderbilt student, I would probably just cut bio and do chem/econ/poli sci/hebrew. Intro to bio isn’t anything exciting; it’s just high school bio content that is tested by examining knowledge of obscure and minor details, rather than the main points. So taking it won’t really be exciting or help you decide if you want to major in it. Generally if you perform well in gen chem you will perform well in gen bio/bio upper levels, so it has some predictive validity. You also don’t have to decide now. Take bio sophomore year and decide then, since you don’t have to declare until then. Maybe freshman year decide between econ/poli sci, and sophomore year decide between bio and the winner of that, or make one a minor and one a major.
@Senior2016M You have to take gen chem before bio, I’m not sure if you realize that (I didn’t until a couple weeks ago). I doubt you’ll get off the waitlist for it given that there’s already 28 people on the waitlist and freshmen can’t even have gotten on the waitlist yet, but I’ve heard Broadie/Zweibel is fine too. I actually am also considering a double major/major-minor with Bio and Blair (vocal performance) so maybe I’ll see you around next year! 
@fdgjfg Thank you!! One other quick question - I know Todd is considered the best for gen chem, but how much of a difference does it make? I am decidedly not a morning person and her class is an 8 AM, plus it would force me to take a monday evening bio lab if I did bio too. List’s class would fit much better with my schedule, and Phillips’ would be even better (although I could only take it if I got into the Patton/Graham bio class or didn’t take bio). Does it make enough of a difference that I should make the schedule sacrifice to make it work?
Phillips and List are both good. I took Phillips and liked him, and I was in List’s class for a few days before I switched to Phillips for time reasons because of another class. Literally the only difference when I took it was that Todd gave out note taking packets, which you filled in as you went through the lecture. All were fairly good teachers. This might have changed since. The difference is so minor that it should only matter when all other things are equal. If one is better for your schedule, just take that one.