Bloomberg - Secret Handshakes Greet Frat Brothers on Wall Street

Parents Forum Parent Cafe
41

<p>“Bullet, before you conclude how difficult that internship was, I would suggest you try doing it. Try going 10 weeks without sleep, working impossible hours and constantly being evaluated on your work product. I don’t know what Navy Seals go through but it can’t be more mentally challenging.” </p>

<p>Goldenpooch, please re-read my statement. I did not say that what your son went through wasn’t brutally challenging and extremely difficult. He did accomplish something you have have every right to be proud of as a parent. </p>

<p>As to my qualifications to have the right to tell that you were a little overzealous in your pride when you compared his experience to the training the SEALS go through, and your statement that I should “try doing it”. Well, your pretty new here, and I haven’t posted for a long time, so you probably aren’t familiar with my background. I’ll just say that “Yes, I HAVE DONE a few things as challenging, and more so”. Things like engaging in combat several times, to include a 6-month stint in Baghdad in 2004 where I commanded over 220 Airmen on the ground throughout Iraq directing the air coverage for the entire theater. 6 months of 18-20 hour days, 7 days a week without a single day off the entire time I was there, responsible for every bomb, bullet, missile daily employed in support of troops in direct combat with the enemy, to include the Battles of Falujah and Najaf. Directly reporting daily to folk like Lt Gen Sanchez and sometimes briefing folks higher than him. 6 months of the most challenging “projects” to ensure the mission was accomplished and the safety of those I commanded and the troops they supported. I screwed up and PEOPLE DIED, or the wrong people trying to kill our troops lived to kill more Americans another day. And let’s not forget the rocket, mortar, and small arms fire attacks I encountered quite often, sometimes in those few short hours I tried to catch some sleep. So yeah, I “tried it”, and then some.</p>

<p>And you know what, I had it EASY compared to the guys in direct combat. Much easier. And in full disclosure, while I did NOT go through SEAL training myself, I was good friends and neighbors with guys who did. I heard their stories, so I do have the background to say their experiences in that training was a little tougher than what your son went through. Both mentally and physically. And that was NOTHING compared to what they went through in combat these past couple of decades.</p>

<p>Be proud of your son’s internship. He does deserve the praise. But comparing it to perhaps the toughest training program in the US Military smacks the same as when celebrities like Tom Cruise and Kanye West say their latest projects were like preparing for combat. It isn’t, and is insulting to those that have been there.</p>

<p>“I am not saying women can’t cope with extreme stress as well as men, although in this case it was very traumatic for the one female intern. One reason, however, why there may not be as many women as men in this business is because women may not be interested in pursuing a career where you have no personal life.”</p>

<p>So, men are more acceptable towards not having a personal life? Perhaps it is THIS attitude and sexist belief (“men are better suited and more willing to put up with the stress and lack of a life outside of the job than women”) that prevents women from being hired more often for positions like this.</p>

42

<p>Wow, jump the shark much? We can all simultaneously respect Navy SEALS and at the same time recognize that within the world of business, I-banking internships are brutal. (My nephew at an Ivy just completed one with a big name bank and will be starting there full time upon graduation. I agree with Goldenpooch, it’s “brutal” in that world.) </p>

<p>It was not a competition, Bullet.</p>

43

<p>No, it was not a competition. It started off as bragging, and at first I simply stated it went too far. And yes, I was insulted by it. Goldenpooch’s response of “try it yourself if you think you can handle it” made me more so…</p>

<p>And I did, and still do agree that her son went through a brutal internship. Comparing it to the training of Navy SEALS went a little too far though…</p>

44

<p>Comparing I-banking to what Bullet went through is a joke.</p>

45

<p>" So, men are more acceptable towards not having a personal life? Perhaps it is THIS attitude and sexist belief (“men are better suited and more willing to put up with the stress and lack of a life outside of the job than women”) that prevents women from being hired more often for positions like this."</p>

<p>But you can’t ignore the truth. Men are far more accepting about being away from their families, working long hours, and requiring their families to move because that’s where Dad’s promotion led him to. I’m sure that (accurate) perception hurts women in some jobs, and it is not specific to every woman, but it an honest generalization.</p>

<p>I’ve been flying for 30 years. When I started, I worked with about 99% men, and 30 years later, the percentages are not a whole lot lower. Is it sexism? No way, women just aren’t interested, even the daughters of guys I fly with. The perception from women is that the job is stressful, scary, and would be far too difficult on their family. I don’t think honest generalizations are sexist, they are just not accurate for everyone.</p>

46

<p>And yet, Bus driver, if an i-banking firm was hesitant to hire a woman because they acknowledged (publically) that “truth”, they would be faced with a discrimination lawsuit. And rightfully so. I for one would not want my daughter to not have the ability to get the job she wants simply because the man hiring her would be worried that woman won’t fit in an industry because they would one day decide they wanted a family instead.</p>

47

<p>True, Bullet, they could not be honest, they would get sued. If I had a daughter, though, I would want her to think long and hard before going into certain industries, and to be truthful with herself. She should be carefully considering the future. For example, should someone follow their desire to become a surgeon, at great effort and expense, if they are determined to have children at a fairly young age and stay home with them? They need to strongly consider what the costs are of their choices.</p>

48

<p>Which is your prerogative. Unfortunately, this is also the attitude of most of society – that woman need to consider this while this shouldn’t be an issue for men. I’d prefer a society where the only question when considering hiring someone is “can they do the job to my satisfaction?” If society accepts that every woman has to choose between a career or a family, while a man does not, how can we expect sexism in certain industries to NOT be the norm?</p>

49

<p>Hmmmm… Many men are stay at home dads…</p>

50

<p>

</p>

<p>Exactly! Just having these conversations illustrates how sexist the work place can be.</p>

51

<p>“If society accepts that every woman has to choose between a career or a family, while a man does not, how can we expect sexism in certain industries to NOT be the norm?”</p>

<p>I have the opinion that a woman (or man) does not have to choose between a career or a family. I have managed to do both (though sometimes poorly). I think a person should determine that for themselves, as opposed to an employer trying to determine that for them. By the time you’re applying for the jobs that are very difficult for your family situation, everyone needs to consider what are the best choices for both themselves and their families.</p>

<p>But I see it all the time where men put their careers ahead of what their families desires are. Not so much with women. Perhaps they rationalize it that if they get a promotion or greater pay, it’s better for their family. I see men moving away from their kids after a divorce without a second thought. I don’t see that with women. While there are some men heavily invested in always doing what is best for their children, it is a vast majority of women that are always thinking of their kids first, putting themselves last in every way. I don’t know if it’s the maternal instinct or what, but I suspect I’m not saying anything that isn’t obvious.</p>

52

<p>Busdriver11, my brother is a stay at home dad. Two friends were stay at home dads. </p>

<p>Most of the men I know would not leave their kids. </p>

<p>I dont know who you are hanging around with but times have changed and are continuing to change. </p>

<p>Dont you know families where the women are breadwinners?</p>

<p>For most jobs, I would hire my wife over me.</p>

53

<p>I’m wracking my brain here for families that have the wives as breadwinners. Many of the families we know, both work full time. I realize there are plenty of dads out there who stay at home, and that times are changing. And I am most certain that you are an extraordinary father, dstark.</p>

<p>I’m really not talking about who makes the money, or even who mostly takes care of the kids. Perhaps this is not clear. I’m talking about the jobs where families have to make huge sacrifices to support one person’s career. This is not the situation in most occupations.</p>

54

<p>I want my daughter to have the same opportunity as men. Maybe I am reading too much into your posts but I see justification to discriminate in your posts. </p>

<p>I see no reason why women cant be investment bankers if that is what they want. No reason. There used to be a successful investment woman banker poster on CC.</p>

<p>If I remember right there was a time people used to argue that women shouldnt drive. Shouldnt be pilots. </p>

<p>Women can give childbirth. Men cant. Childbirth looks pretty difficult to me. :)</p>

<p>You dont know any women breadwinners?
Wow!!! That is interesting.</p>

<p>I have to admit… I dont hang around macho men. I dont find macho men interesting.</p>

55

<p>One thing I would be curious to know, would be the answer to the following questions, for people who have quit their careers for family considerations. Particularly for those who have spent many years in training and education, and sometimes huge sums of money----worked in their career field for a short time and then quit (for their families). People in such fields as medicine, law, aviation, certain career paths in the military, that required a huge amount of effort just to get qualified.</p>

<p>Would you do it again? Or would you have chosen something different? Would you have rather had the money that it cost (plus investment interest) and have gone into a different field? Or was it worth it for the sense of accomplishment?</p>

56

<p>I know plenty of women who make good salaries. I just can’t think of anyone who is the primary (or only) breadwinner unless they’re divorced. Probably most of the women I fly with make more than their husbands, but the husbands have jobs too. It’s hard to assume what their salaries are.</p>

<p>Don’t read too much into my posts or assume things…I am the least sexist person alive. I don’t think women should be discriminated against in any job, but they should have to meet the same standards. I just think people should not go blindly into huge commitments without being honest about what they’re willing or not willing to do.</p>

<p>I don’t consider investment banking as being a job particularly suited to men. Why would it be?</p>

57

<p>busdriver, your questions start at a point where there is already a problem. Neither women nor men should have to put their career before family. The problem is that there shouldn’t be a choice. We have accepted that choice as status quo but it does not have to be that way. Employers could very easily accommodate choices regarding family with no damage to their businesses. It would require changes that some have no idea how to make and some don’t want to make. Society is harmed when women and men feel the choice to put family first is hostile to business. Regardless of all of the usually meaningless talk about putting families first in this country, there is little effort on the part of business to do this.</p>

58

<p>Busdriver11, I did quit. Gave up a lot of money. Millions. I am not that wealthy. We have enough. I started out with nothing. </p>

<p>I was coming home from work too tired to enjoy my kids. I went part time as soon as I could afford it and eventually I quit. I went part time in the late 80’s and I am not that old. :slight_smile: </p>

<p>My wife didnt work either when the kids were young. Well… She did work. Lots of volunteer work. Lots.</p>

<p>If I worked one or two more years near my peak, I could help a lot more people or give ourselves a bigger cushion. I didnt realize so many people would get into financial difficulties.</p>

<p>But… I dont have any regrets. You get your first choice. You dont get your second choice.
My kids were only going to be young once and I wasnt going to miss it. I am glad I had the choice and I am happy with my choice. </p>

<p>I am not a woman but I want women to have their choices without others making excuses to hold women back. </p>

<p>I want people to do what they want.</p>

59

<p>“busdriver, your questions start at a point where there is already a problem. Neither women nor men should have to put their career before family. The problem is that there shouldn’t be a choice. We have accepted that choice as status quo but it does not have to be that way. Employers could very easily accommodate choices regarding family with no damage to their businesses. It would require changes that some have no idea how to make and some don’t want to make. Society is harmed when women and men feel the choice to put family first is hostile to business. Regardless of all of the usually meaningless talk about putting families first in this country, there is little effort on the part of business to do this.”</p>

<p>cartera, that may sound reasonable, but I can’t imagine it is practical for every business. Some jobs require frequent moves for promotions. Some jobs require constant travel. Some careers require very long hours of work. It may be well and good to say that every company should not allow this…not too much travel, not too many moves, not too many hours, but that is impossible. We can’t all just have jobs where we work as much or as little as we like…from home, if we choose. You can’t possibly expect every business to structure jobs around people’s preferred lifestyle. Their objective is to make a profit. Many companies are international or have locations all over the US. I doubt they are saying “choose your job or your family”, but this is the job–you figure out how and if you want to do it.</p>

<p>And if you’re in the military, your career comes first. That’s it. You can be deployed at a moment’s notice, you can be forced to move every couple of years (that one, I think, is cruel and unnecessary). Especially in this age of multiple wars, you often don’t have choices.</p>

60

<p>dstark, we all do. I think busdriver is looking at the “macro” situation and you are looking more at the “micro.” Regardless of your personal experience, there is no question that more men are in jobs that are dangerous, high stress, or involve significant time away from home. Even for the SAME jobs, men often get paid more than women. So for MOST families (not yours or that of people you know), it makes more financial sense for the woman to be “under-employed” rather than the man.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I agree completely with this. Some companies are trying–mine instituted paid paternity leave this year, though not as long as for new mothers–but others are stuck in the dark ages. Hopefully, things are changing, though. On the other hand, women can be their own worst enemies in terms of setting themselves up for equal treatment. I have one friend who is the chair of an academic department at a major university. She has a woman on the faculty (full tenured professor) who REFUSES to have meetings after school hours. She avoids attending any conferences that require her to travel, even just overnight. She has made it VERY clear that there are limitations around what she will and won’t do.</p>

<p>Another friend was in the unfortunate position of having to fire someone who worked for her organization because she needed the woman to be full time and she refused.</p>

<p>Of my “mom friends,” most are what I would call “underemployed” and have husbands with the big jobs (law, real estate, corporate, etc.). They are teachers or work for the state or the university part time or freelance from home. In each case, a stated goal for them is to be home when their kids get home from school, so of course that precludes them from having full-time jobs or travel demands. (Unfortunately, most are stuck doing these things long after their kids need someone there with them after school.) Maybe in bigger cities there is more balance, but the only women I know with demanding full-time jobs here are single moms who could really use the flexibility that our married friends enjoy thanks to not having to be the primary breadwinners for their families.</p>