Boston Globe: A higher bar for future teachers

Parent Cafe
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<p>I can see I’m having difficulty expressing myself, & expressing the difference.
Allmusic, I don’t think it’s necessary to yell or scream to establish a sense of authority. My style is more one of quiet but firm authority, without alienation. I know I connect with my students, that I communicate caring & support. But I think that however approachable a teacher is, or whatever he or she is called, it is helpful to differentiate roles by virtue of how one carries oneself. (Roles as in who’s in charge, who’s not in charge.) Makes for a more predictable & calmer environment. Authority is not authoritarianism. I’ve never heard complaints about being called severe, scary, or unapproachable. Perhaps many people can carry off the “Aw shucks, we’re just all friends here – one big democracy.” (Actually too many of them do not carry that off, as I’ve observed that many of the ultra-informal teachers are not effective in the classroom & continually complain about discipline problems.) But in any case, that doesn’t fit with my style. Call me old-fashioned.</p>

<p>Speaking of democracy, I think I have trouble with the idea of parents hiring teachers. I definitely think they should be heard when principals & supes are reviewing contract renewals. I would hope that principals would take into account a history of valid complaints about a teacher during the reconsideration period. </p>

<p>Marite, I’m not sure which direction of the SES scale you’re speaking of. In my area, the lower the SES, the more distinct the teacher role, the more uniforms are worn, etc. (Esp. at charters but not exclusively at charters. Individual schools sometimes vote to adopt uniforms.)</p>

<p>padad, as you see I agree with you. Pay is a big issue, and i.m.o. should be tied to quality, training, credentialing, experience. I have difficulty with the notion of a "demand" for pay by virtue of a union; rather I would prefer it be indicated by professional standards. I realize that I continue to be a minority in this profession, & I very much appreciate your support.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Pay is a big issue, and i.m.o. should be tied to quality, training, credentialing, experience. I have difficulty with the notion of a "demand" for pay by virtue of a union; rather I would prefer it be indicated by professional standards. I realize that I continue to be a minority in this profession...

[/quote]

I'm going to throw out a question for the educators here...</p>

<p>In our region of the state, there are 4 different schools that turn out licensed teachers - the flagship U (masters only), a well regarded small regional private(4+1 or masters), a 2nd tier state U (4+1 or masters), and a private night school (4+1). Ranking of quality of institution is in that order.</p>

<p>Beyond the normal different pay scale for the masters degreed teacher, would you have different payscales for different "quality" ratings of the universities, different payscales based upon which quartile the teacher graduated within his/her graduating class? Or would you put them on the same scale and start them at different steps based upon school quality and/or quartile?</p>

<p>Would you consider this a better way to start attracting better talent into the profession?</p>

<p>It seems right now, the teachers in the top quartile from the top schools generally go to the more affluent suburban districts (although the payscales arent much higher (maybe 10% at best often close to equal) than the big county school district. The big county district gets teachers from all 4 sources, although they pay them the same no matter which school or what their grades were. The rural county districts generally get graduates from the lower 2 schools or people with family ties to the county, as they pay significantly less than the closer in districts.</p>

<p>Your thoughts and/or experiences in this matter would be interesting...</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Marite, I’m not sure which direction of the SES scale you’re speaking of. In my area, the lower the SES, the more distinct the teacher role, the more uniforms are worn, etc. (Esp. at charters but not exclusively at charters. Individual schools sometimes vote to adopt uniforms.)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You're right. The higher the SES, the more likely the class is to be unstructured and the teacher to be called by his or her first name. As I have mentioned before, our old k-8 school used to share a building with another k-8 school. The building was located in a lower income area. Our school attracted students from all over the city; the other had students from the neighborhood. Ours had multi-grade, unstructured classes in which teachers were called by their first names. The other had more structured, single grade classes where the teacher was called by his or her first name. Ours had highly involved parents; the other seldom had parents turn out for anything. Ours involved parents in hiring and curricular review and reform.</p>

<p>I don't know that involving parents in hiring processes would work everywhere, but our school included a prof at the Harvard Graduate School of Education, at least two members of the School Board, one person who had started as a lawyer but is currently with the state's DOE, various college profs, and so on. </p>

<p>The hiring committees sift through cvs and draw up short lists of interviews and then interview the applicants (two separate committees as there are often a couple of hundreds of applications to review). The interviewing committee which involves the principal makes a recommendation. </p>

<p>I'm happy to rave about my Ss' teachers. After all, I was on the hiring committees that hired several of them! :) Of the various recommendations hiring committees made while I was there, only one was overriden by the principal. He chose an inexperienced college graduate over one who was not only more experienced but had greater knowledge of the school having volunteered for many years. He was also working toward a Ph.D. The principal, however, saw the new college graduate as a potential role-model for a variety of students and so overrode concerns that she was inexperienced. She burnt out in two years. The other applicant was then hired. By then he had his Ph.D, but loves working with young kids. The school community continues to hope that no one lures him away.</p>

<p>When I was on a hiring committee at our high school, some teachers thanked the parents for helping the principal see that some of the applicants were not really the best for the job. She had been inclined to hire teachers who had supported her during a difficult transition --not out of nepotism, but genuine belief that they had the right ideas. But the interviews helped show that their experience was limited to the classroom (they were being considered for administrative positions); the teachers on the hiring committee were happy that disappointed applicants would not be holding them responsible for not getting the jobs. We parents would be sharing their ire.</p>

<p>If you've heard of the Algebra Project, it was started by Bob Moses when his daughter was in 8th grade. He became concerned that minority kids might be shut out of algebra, the gatekeeper class for college. After him, parents helped redesign the 5/6 grade social studies curriculum. They also worked to get Spanish taught at earlier grades, etc...</p>

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<p>goaliedad, as one voice I'll say that I think the quality of the training should be & can be one of the definers. The training program I was in consisted of hand-picked Berkeley graduates who were recruited into the program. It was extremely rigorous & not at all what other programs were like at the time. It was very intense. One of the reasons for this program had been to attract better talent: they definitely acquired the candidates they wanted. The problem was that the conditions in the schools & the salaries still being offered did not match the quality & the training of those who graduated from that program. I'm sure most of those left the field long ago. I myself left education for awhile, to join the corporate world for better pay.:(</p>

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<p>My brothers attended a school where they were on a first name basis with their teachers more than 20 years ago. It still seems a little weird to me having gone to more formal schools, but I think they got just as good an education as I did.</p>

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<p>marite,I don't have a problem with some of the parental input & roles you describe. At one of my d's schools, there was a novice, very young principal who accepted input from parents who had been there for years. However, it was an informal kind of input, not a structured hiring process including parents actually interviewing prospective teachers & making decisions about hiring people not in their own field.</p>

<p>That's fine about Bob Moses. However, to me it is evidence that schools & administrators are not doing their jobs. We also had a situation in my d's private elem. school, at which the math & science were inadequate. The curriculum of the school was clearly not being addressed, was extremely outdated & not preparing the students for high school. The parents met often (in group) with the principal, pleading for change & suggesting changes. It was evidence of a huge void. There are supposed to be people, in both publics & privates, actually paid to do this. If they're in publics, they're called curriculum specialists (or similar name); it's a title & they earn a salary, & their job is to keep current & make such changes. If they're privates, those duties should be assumed by an academic head or by a principal if there is no separate academic head; & teachers often collaborate on such curriculum changes, of course.</p>

<p>However, when you have teachers doing parenting, child care, social work, psychology, psychiatry, arbitration, mediation, law enforcement, etc., I guess you need <em>parents</em> making curriculum decisions? Confusion of roles anyone?</p>

<p>There's a lot to know in deciding who to hire. Parents may have a lot of valuable things to say, but I'm sorry, they're not actually experts in the area of Ed Psych/cognitive development, necessarily. If they are, perhaps they should quit their jobs & come join the education profession? Just a question.</p>

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<p>Actually, what Bob Moses found was that middle-class (and overhwelmingly white) children seemed to be better prepared to tackle algebra than minority kids. He talked to the 8th grade teacher (who had originally been a music teacher but later became a homeroom teacher) and devised the Algebra Project for 6th graders. Thus, by 8th grade, the students were comfortable with some basic algebra concepts. As a result, our school was the first one in the district to introduce algebra in 8th grade. </p>

<p>As for curricular decisions, the parents don't make them, but they help shape them. Bear in mind the high proportion of professionals, including academics in our community. If the teachers were to go to colleges seeking help, they would likely meet the parents of their students there. I would not expect the same level of parental involvement everywhere. But as I made it clear, not all schools in our district have the same level of parental involvement. Those that do also have the highest achieving students.</p>

<p>Re: hiring decisions: The process seems to have worked extremely well in our school. Teachers principals and parents devised questions to ask. I have never seen parents and teachers disagreeing on the types of questions to be asked. Usually, it was a matter of the wording. We all asked the same questions of all the applicants; we then ranked them without consulting one another. After we had ranked them, we then discussed our rankings and the weaknesses and strengths of each applicant. I have always found the process to be very amicable. Only in the one instance I described was there disagreement but it did not pit parents against teachers or principal. At other schools where parents are not involved, the principal has to wade through the 200+ resumes and do all the interviewing. I doubt the outcome is superior.</p>

<p>As for joining the education profession, why should parents? Lawyers, doctors, college profs, architects... make a lot more money than the average teacher and they are donating their time for free.</p>

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<p>An “academic” is not necessarily instructed & trained in child devleopment, cognition, & a host of other important aspects to <em>elementary</em> and <em>secondary</em> education. (Unless that person is a professor in an education dept.) I myself am considered an academic, an intellectual, & have been told by many people that I should teach in college. That doesn’t necessarily mean that I should make hiring decisions about professors. And even looking from the point of view of stakeholders. (Parents as stakeholders of their children’s education; I as a stakeholder of my children’s college education.)</p>

<p>There is no need for a principal to go through 200+ apps singlehandedly. He or she has a staff of teachers willing to share this job. They are better suited to it, not even because of professional training, but more importantly because this next person will be working on a team with them. Their input should be critical. I’ve never met a group of teachers, no matter how busy, who would not see this as more their job than the parents’ job.</p>

<p>There is a wide range of educational preparation among families I teach. One, for example, is an architect. She catches on more quickly than my parents with less education. She is enthusiastic about being involved in her children’s education, & I welcome her enthusiasm. However, she has come to realize that the how of learning (not just the what) is a lot more complex, especially on the younger levels, than it appears, which is why people trained in that field get hired -- & by people who understand the requirements of the field. One of my parents is a lawyer & at first thought she could just “take over” all of the curricululm decisions. Then she also realized that there were a lot of aspects she hadn’t considered, because she wasn’t trained in them. </p>

<p>I read a ton about medicine. Not only that, I subscribe to technical medical journals & taught myself much of the jargon. I converse fluently with many physicians, about the medical field. That doesn’t mean I should be making hiring decisions about physicians.</p>

<p>I’m not saying cut parents completely out of the process, no. Perhaps it does work in your area. I would have to see it up close to determine that. I merely do not subscribe to the idea that because parents are educated & work as professionals, they therefore can/should make hiring decisions about a different profession. What is required to teach college is not what is required to teach 5th grade, & teach it extraordinarily well. I cannot agree with you more, though, that such a level of education is key to the success of those students, as you mention.</p>

<p>It still tells me that there are educator roles that are not being performed by people paid to do so.</p>

<p>Oh well. I can see I'm alone here. Whatever.</p>

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<p>re names- I attended an "alternative" high school in the 70s where we called teachers by first names-
My oldest has never attended a school where the teachers or profs went by the honorific, including college.
Younger daughter attends a high school that is more formal, however the science dept is less formal and the teachers prefer to be called by their last name shortened into a nickname almost or Ms-first name.
The formality does add another layer, that you have to reach through, but as it is a school with a majority * minority* population, I think that many of their families are more familiar/comfortable with Mr.teacher</p>

<p>Re hiring decisions-that is a building decisions. I have been on principal hiring committees where most were parents- it was quite a long involved process including classes on new rules and while it would have been great to have had had more teachers involved- part of the process required that each candidate be treated equally- which meant all the committee had to be there for all the interviews. Few teachers wanted to committ to that extra time.</p>

<p>I have also been on teacher hiring commitees. While the principal interviewees had already been screened by the district and approved by the superintendent, the teacher applications came right to the school.
Again long process- so many applications to go through as a interview committee it was quite a time committment. Principals do have the final say on hiring decisions, but they were not generally involved on the committee level.</p>

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<p>We have never had parents on teacher hiring committees, but always on principal and superintendent hiring ones.</p>

<p>Personally, I have noticed the parents complicating the process, not making it easier. As an example, the principal candidate, whom the parents loved in the small group, and then public interview, turned out to be an utter distaster when said person got the job...</p>

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<p>I agree much more with that model, AllMusic. A principal actually answers to a wider community than a single teacher does. Examining his or her educational philosophy, orientation toward the parent community (esp. if there's in place a strong, thriving one), & readiness to support continuity (if an existing model is working well) or redirect that radically if not working well, is crucial. Similar for a supe: answering often to a very broad community; should have comprehensive set of skills, including demonstrated people skills & be able to keep focused on both the big picture & all the little pictures. I see a strong hiring role for parents in both those respects.</p>

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<p>I have been on one principal hiring committee
and again on a committee when we were advised by district that there were not any appropriate longterm principal candidates and we interviewed an interim replacement.
We didn't have a public interview before they got the job- we were given 5 candidates to hire by district- and we had a committee made up of staff- parents- students and teachers-
2 of the candidates IMO should not have been given to us, because they did have have appropriate experience or interest, one of them I wouldn't have hired to walk my dog-</p>

<p>my favorite candidate I admit- was only shared by 1 or two other members- both teachers. He had been a superientendent at a small rural district and was moving to the city to give his high school son more opportunities. He also was a minister- which threw many of the teachers and parents at this ultra liberal school. I also am "liberal" but I dont hold that religious means conservative. I still think he would have been great & since the school is now on their 4th principal since then ( it has been 6 years)....</p>

<p>Two others were viable candidates- however neither had shown experience with or interest in, alternative education ( it was an "alternative" school). However- one candidate was particularly energetic and "perky".
After we ranked our candidates according to preselected criteria we discussed them and voted.
The perky principal- stayed for three years- long enough to get experience for the job she really wanted.</p>

<p>The school we are at now- the PTA board was in the loop to interview and hire him & I think he is great- and many of the staff seem quite pleased as well.
I think a lot depends on which candidates your school gets sent- and that depends on how your school is viewed in the district.
A top comprehensive high school, gets different candidates than a much more flexible, but under the radar alternative school ( who had several candidates whose resumes were tailored for a comprehensive school)
I disagree that parents muck up the process, not in my experience anyway. We took it very seriously and we worked hard developing the questions to be asked ( all the questions have to be agreed upon as a group)</p>

<p>Some schools however- just have a principal assigned to them- as we did with the interim candidate- we really didn't have a choice- and since the previous two principals hadn't left their position till the end of the school year- the process of posting the position and interviewing was pushed to summer & many teachers weren't available in the summer-
But we never have any money or time to go anywhere so.... ;)</p>

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<p>I can only speak to my experience. The teachers have been mightily glad that they did not have to wade through the 200+ cvs on top of whatever else they were doing.<br>
I do not think that if parents were not part of the hiring process, hiring would be conducted differently. It certainly would take far longer, which means that many great teachers would be snapped up by suburban school systems.
I have never seen a parent ride roughshod over teachers, especially when it came to issues of cognitive development, etc..., The one time that I was on a hiring committee where the principal overrode recommendations (not decisions) of the committee, the teacher burnt out within two years and never quite found her footing. My S was going to be in her class; despite my well-founded reservations, I held my peace and tried to help the teacher out, as did other parents.</p>

<p>Another facet of this whole situation: Parents are involved in k-8 in many different ways. In the lower grades, they may help by coming on a regular basis to read to the children or just to serve as another adult in the classroom; they help prepare kids for performances and act as chaperons on field trips; they raise funds for these trips, which usually include subsidizing the costs for lower income children; the help re-stock the library and conduct yearly book swaps, and so on and so forth. As a result of these efforts, the difference in achievement between high and low SES students is not as pronounced at that level as it is in the high school. There, parents are chiefly involved in hiring principals or deans, but not teachers, and are not at all involved in classrooms. Thus, well-educated parents provide support to their own children, but not to the 48% who are on Free or Reduced Lunch.<br>
As I've said, the students who are the highest achievers come from k-8 schools with the highest level of parental participation in the k-8 school. When NMSF awards were handed out a few years ago, our k-8 school, one of 15, snaggled over half of them.</p>

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<p>allmusic, I also agree with you about the risk of leaving critical teaching hiring decisions to parents. In a case I cited earlier, referencing a group of parents who succeeded in getting some misplaced & deadwood teachers fired -- these & similar parents at the school had some very wrong ideas at other times. It was one thing to bring community attention to situations of incompetence & burnout --& particularly where these were chronic: but still my question is, Who the heck was minding the store? If you parents out there think this is the parents' responsibility, you could not be more wrong. These are educators' responsibilities; if they are not doing these things, then they are abandoning their paid positions & should be fired or should leave voluntarily. What do you mean they are "too busy"? I'm "too busy" to be a parent, too, but I signed on to doing it & no one could/should do it <em>for</em> me.</p>

<p>But the point I'm trying to make is, these above parents also made some impulsive suggestions that were ill-advised & were the kinds of decisions that those of us with expertise would never suggest. So such well-meaning suggestions require professional <em>oversight</em> before adoption or implementation. It may look "easy" to teach, to hire teachers, to suggest curriculum changes, to review a candidates on paper or even someone who happens to interview well. That does make you an expert judge at those things; nor am I an expert in your respective fields, necessarily -- even if I am acquainted with those fields, hang out with those professionals, read about those fields, etc. So it's obvious to me that there's still a confusion between parenting & teaching; they are not the same. One does not confer expertise in the other. (And there are some childless teachers who should not be parents.)</p>

<p>A prospective teacher may have fabulous ideas, be dynamic, & "wow" parents. He or she may be something else entirely in the classroom.</p>

<p>And "being involved" in the classroom, even regularly, as a volunteer does not advance one to a position of competence in hiring decisions. It gives one important knowledge, including inside knowledge which may make an individual recommendation stronger, more credible. (Or an individual insight into deficiencies of a teacher, of materials, of student placement, etc.) Those are all helpful things to share, & I have no doubt that a principal would be glad to hear them. I would just never leave the review of applications to parents -- not for <em>credentialed</em> teaching jobs. I wouldn't have them review applications of principals, either. But I approve of having them at least meet a panel of principal applicants, perhaps even informally. They would learn a lot about their styles that way & I think their input would be valuable.</p>

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<p>If you parents out there think this is the parents' responsibility, you could not be more wrong. These are educators' responsibilities; if they are not doing these things, then they are abandoning their paid positions & should be fired or should leave voluntarily. What do you mean they are "too busy"? I'm "too busy" to be a parent, too, but I signed on to doing it & no one could/should do it <em>for</em> me.</p>

<p>All hiring and firing decisions at our school rested ultimately with principal
The hiring committee would make recommendations to principal- but we didn't have final say
Re firing- that is pretty difficult - needs to be lots of documentation which needs to be done by principal- who in our experience- felt it was easier to transfer themselves apparently- but still that decision is the principal</p>

<p>And yes I would also agree that educators should be more involved in what would be considered obligations of their position- but saying they should be "fired" or "leave voluntarily" if they don't-
They don't
Thats why the principal assigned the teacher a position that she knew was not appropriate- so she would " leave voluntarily"- unfortunately she left after the school year was underway .</p>

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<p>Epiphany, You said, "I merely do not subscribe to the idea that because parents are educated & work as professionals, they therefore can/should make hiring decisions about a different profession. What is required to teach college is not what is required to teach 5th grade, & teach it extraordinarily well."</p>

<p>I very much agree with you. I made the decision long ago that I should leave teaching to teachers. My D was about the only child I know who had not been taught to read by parents before first grade. As a consequence my D has the utmost respect for her first grade teacher who bestowed upon her the wonderful gift of reading. My laissez faire attitude continued through her K12 education, and my D never once lost her respect for any teachers and was always attentive in class. That is not to say that I don't educate her myself, I just left topics that are covered by school alone. I bought her books; we wrote stories and plays. we talked on a range of topics but not those covered by school. My D was always excited when school started again after each summer and looked forward to each new class. I never put her in a gifted program or allowed the school to skip her years. The only academic enrichment outside of her school was in the CTY program, only becuase she was so miserable in the "fun" summer camps, and I finally relented to let her go into the CTY program.</p>

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<p>padad, You sound like a great father -- which has nothing to do with your agreement with me -- but merely because of your wise guidance & your obvious tenderness to your daughter. So nice to read.</p>

<p>EK,
regarding firing. Depends on the situation & the school. In a private, it is not that difficult. The parents in the circumstances I described did not need a ton of documentation, nor did the principal. It was not a long, drawn-out process. The big hurdle was getting the principal to sit down and just LISTEN, openly. Once that was accomplished, it happened that very contract year. (i.e., no renewal) That's the whole point of reviewing contracts for the coming year.</p>

<p>Sometimes in publics it is not that difficult either. Again, depends on the circumstances, the school, the principal -- a whole host of things. I've worked in both environments & know whereof I speak. Yes, sometimes it's more complicated, and longer. Willing people can accomplish it. I've also seen public school teachers fired without "documentation."</p>

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<p>Epiphany:</p>

<p>All parents are trying to do (or in my case tried to do) was to help out extremely busy principals and teachers. Let me give you an example. </p>

<p>A few years ago, our old k-8 school was asked to take over a failing school. The better off parents had a choice of leaving the public school system altogether or moving to the sububrs. In fact, a few did. But the majority rallied and decided to stay with the school. They helped the teachers pack their rooms and the library, then unpack everything and set up new classrooms; they worked to allay concern of the parents from the school that was being taken over so that teachers could be free to work with their new colleagues--and yes, they helped hire new ones to replace the deadwood ones. All of the teachers and many of the parents sacrificed their whole summer to that process. I really don't know how the teachers could have done the job on their own. The first year of the merger was a bit rough (it happened after my S graduated); again, I understand that parents played a major role in making things go more smoothly.</p>

<p>Another example: a couple of teachers were hired during the summer (it happens all the time). Once they were hired, I brought stack of materials I had saved from my S's earlier grades so that the incoming teachers could have a sense of what had been covered. If I had not taken part in the hiring process, I would not have known to share those materials with the teachers. </p>

<p>We have had profs of history (different areas and period), English Ph.D.s, famous scientists, nationally known physicians, child psychologists, as well as education researchers ... among the parent community. None of them ever said "This is the way to teach such and such." But they have been able to recommend resources and to discuss content. </p>

<p>I actually looked over the materials assigned by one teacher for a special unit. The materials were hopelessly dated, and in some cases wrong and politically biased to boot. The teacher had not looked over the materials carefully before assigning them, and they did not happen to be in his area of specialization. I was able to help my S use different resources that were more up-to-date and accurate. But how I wish I could have performed the same for the rest of his class! I could not, because the materials had already been copied and distributed. Was the teacher incompetent? Not really. It just was not his area of specialization. But it happened to be mine. In his own area of specialization, he was fabulous. I had this experience many times, which is why I can say that I have not encountered a truly incompetent teacher. But many have had areas of weaknesses.</p>

<p>As for wowing, the only one in my experience who got wowed by the wrong applicant was the principal.</p>

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<p>I guess I should have been more clear
In the private schools- while I have been on the parent group board- and had been on administrative commitees in the co-op preschools- I was never- and had not heard of any parents being involved in administrative decisions
I never felt the need to be that involved- for a couple reasons
One was- we had few if any openings for teachers and while the advisory board did help to select a director for the elem school- I didn't feel I had enough experience ( although I had been approached to be on the board- probably to add diversity)
My involvement in more commitees than you can shake a stick at has only been since we became more involved in public schools</p>

<p>I didn't think it was necessary to have parents involved in all hiring decisions, but for example when we needed to hire a special ed teacher- I was asked to participate because without me, we would have had a commitee of two.</p>

<p>I imagine that redtape is less in smaller districts like Granite falls- but in Seattle it is easier to have a teacher move to an unsuspecting school than fire them.
<a href="http://www.tntp.org/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.tntp.org/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>One program for attracting/paying/retaining good teachers is called Teacher Advancement Program or TAP. Check it out at </p>

<p><a href="http://www.talentedteachers.org/tap.taf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.talentedteachers.org/tap.taf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>