<p>kirmum, does this make you think twice about the prep option?</p>
<p>One side thought: What do ya'll think the affect is of the schools who send out transcripts with numerical grades vs. letter grades?</p>
<p>Our school uses numerical AND the letter grade, but the adcom can see the number that earned you that A, which would be fine, except they grade rather harshly and rarely is there any score over 95%......my DD was in the top 5 (no specific place ranking) and probably had around a 90-91% average. How does that look to an adcom when other schools have 97%? Do they really really read those profiles?</p>
<p>Just curious. My DD's school was not chosen as an Ivy path and she has no interest in going east, but if she did, I wonder how it would go?</p>
<p>Not at all cubfan. My daughter is not enamoured with HYP. From everything I'm learning, I think a well chosen boarding prep will be a great for for my very "old" daughter. School comes easily to her and I think the total learning environment will give her the "more" she craves. Like so many of you kids who post, she is just so excited about this option that I want to support her. Good luck to you and I look forward to hearing your outcome.</p>
<p>This issue was frequently on my mind during my S's junior year of high school. As it became clear that the best "fits' for him academically were of the HYP caliber, I wondered if this would come across in his application. If he had been at an elite prep school, he would have been one of their top students. He would have had college counselors writing wonderfully detailed recommendations highlighting the accomplishments that admissions officers would be most interested in hearing about.</p>
<p>Being a top student at an average public school, however, does not carry the same weight. It's not going to make you stand out in the elite college admissions pool. Guidance counselors at large public schools often do not have the time or the know how to guide kids through the college admission process. I've seen many good students from our local public high school get rejected at several of their top choices, and I wonder what their applications looked like. Cricket gives a good description of what our local high school is like. </p>
<p>In the end, things worked out for my son. In fact his accomplishments may have stood out more because he had to use his own initiative to develop his talents. But if things had not worked out, I may have been sitting here kicking myself for not sending him to prep school.</p>
<p>I don't know Cookiemom, I'd rather take my chances at a HYP from a public school, or even my kid's current private where I know she's at the yop. How do we know if our kids will be top at a prep school until they get there?</p>
<p>I'm just saying if you are extraordinarily bright, it is easier to demonstrate that in a very challenging environment with a proven track record. If you are a top student at an average school you could be anywhere from just above average to extraordinary, and a transcript might not distinguish the two.</p>
<p>I go to a private school and there are 34 other girls in my grade. Any of us would be the top student at an average public school...my dad was joking that he should of sent me to public school where I would have gotten straight A's and been surrounded by not as motivated kids so I could shine more. I don't think he was wholly joking. The best analogy I can come up with is your kid may shine brighter in comparison at a school where other kids aren't shining bright. But I do love my prep school and the other advantages it gives me (and I did get accepted ED so it worked). Just my 2 cents.</p>
<p>"If he had been at an elite prep school, he would have been one of their top students."</p>
<p>Cookiemom, the issue is that you could not assume that. At an elite prep school, the student body is nearly all select - your son would be surrounded by kids just like him: everyone would have great ISEE/SSAT scores, and be enthusiatic learners. You can't assume he would be at the top - he could be right in the middle, and there wouldn't be any shame in that. </p>
<p>SkepticalSenior has got it right. I think most of the private school kids do really well in college admissions, and they get a great education -- they are well prepared for college, but it is harder to "stand out".</p>
<p>I agree with jrpar. THe point of sending your child to a prep school is not to ensure them a spot at an elite school- it should be to provide an outstanding education. Focusing on whether a student will be at the top should be a mute point-the purpose of high school is to prepare for college, to to gain admission at an elite school.</p>
<p>I do wonder about schhols like this and top colleges today. If everyone is a leader, who is there to lead?</p>
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<p>I think most of the private school kids do really well in college admissions, and they get a great education -- they are well prepared for college, but it is harder to "stand out".</p>
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<p>I think there are two dimensions to "standing out". </p>
<p>Academically the prep kids do have it tougher in my opinion ... they are in with higher caliber students on the whole and it's tougher to have a high class rank ... and colleges expect high board scores from kids coming from the preps.</p>
<p>On the other hand the kids at prep schools (or very small public schools) have a big advantage when it comes to ECs ... in a small school which has as many (or more) ECs than a large public high school everyone has a much better chance to make teams/bands/etc and to have leadership positions. The odds of being a club president or team captain are way higher in a prep school with 400 kids as opposed to a public HS with 2000 kids (5 times as likely actually).</p>
<p>How those two things play out against each other I do not know ... whatever the effect of attending a prep is it is my impression it might have some effect at a particular top (HYPSM) school when the kid applies ... but overall their prep experience will serve them well in life and they will get into a great school for them (typically)</p>
<p>(...first, a thank you to Ariesathena for passing along The Aries Method! Wondering if the Jamimom Method varies much from the Xiggi and the Aries?)</p>
<p>"if everyone is a leader..."
For colleges that are building a class (as contrasted to admitting in a more numbers-driven way), there can be lots of leaders--but in all sorts of areas: in theatre, in debate, politics, community service, etc etc etc., and some kids are leaders in more than one area. Put them all together and it is an interesting mix. </p>
<p>EC's...<br>
Hmmm. Public-school kids can sometimes actually be stellar in the EC area, but of course there is a huge range of public schools and so also a huge range of opportunities. Many public schools, and of course the best ones, have lots of choices of ECs. Sometimes such a variety is possible because of the sheer numbers of teachers and students who can participate at a large school. Since many public schools are community-based schools, some kids are very active in their communities. And then of course there are the schools that are really into sports, where the whole town turns out for a big game. There can be some great athletic opportunities. Looking at public and private schools in the same locale, public schools can actually be better in some EC areas, at least I can think of instances in the arts. This really varies widely, I think, but if you have a child who is apt to be very involved, or needs a certain EC and of good quality, Togo, that's a really good point; better check the EC situation, too!</p>
<p>If you have choices, I would think that the primary considerations for any school, high school or college, would be where your child would get a good education and would be happy. Anyone is more likely to do better in a place that suits him/her. Figure out the fit issues: if happy being challenged, playing whatever sport and pursuing various interests...then explore those fit issues. Have extended visits if possible before choosing and take your cues from your child. Most kids have a pretty good sense of where they fit in.</p>
<p>I think many of you misunderstood my point. I agree that it is harder to stand out" at an elite prep school. I also agree that many of the kids in the middle of the pack at these schools would be stars at their local high schools. I would add to that, that its possible to be a top student at some high schools and not be that great of a student. Or you could be a plugger or a grade grubber, and not be that bright.</p>
<p>I'm talking about those kids who do "stand out" at a very competitive elite prep school. Those kids who blew through the standard high school curriculum and are acing all of the college level classes offered at these elite institutions. The kids whose recs will stand out even in the group of 30 or so that go to HYP. The kids who are known as being "top of the class" even though there is no ranking.</p>
<p>Now take one of these kids and put them in your average public high school. They are perfectly capable of acing linear algebra, differential equations, and complex analysis like their prep school peers. However, the most advanced math class at their high school is AP Calculus AB. They are gifted in languages and would thrive in French Humanism, French Drama, or French Masterpieces of the 16th and 17th century, but the school drops its AP French class because only 2 kids signed up, and the guidance counselor suggests the student takes a study period instead. I think you get my drift.</p>
<p>This hypothetical student gets all As and is in the top 2% of their high school class, but how would they stack up against their academic peers back at the elite prep school?</p>
<p>They'd probably get into Harvard while their academic peers at the elite prep school wouldn't. Of course they wouldn't learn French Humanism, so in that case they'd be seriously unpreppared for life.</p>
<p>The top kids at my son's prep schools, the ones in the Cum Laude Society all end up at the most selective schools. And many times they area also the ones who are legacies and development kids as well.</p>
<p>At Jamimom's sons' prep schools, the top students are sure to get into selective colleges. At Cookiemom's public high school, they're not. At good prep schools, not only the top students but a little deeper into the class may get in. At Cookiemom's, there is no such assurance, no track record. Of course there are top public schools too-- feeder schools-- that regularly send their top however-many students to selective colleges. But for regular public school kids, it is difficult. I agree that outstanding kids may shine, but Cookiemom is right that they have some extra hurdles to get over to get into selective colleges, if that is where they want to go. </p>
<p>Chances are, a lot of these outstanding public-school kids weren't aiming for any particular colleges but sort of found themselves in the position of qualifying, very different from the children of cub-scout troup moms who are already guessing which elite schools their kids might get into. The selective colleges are familiar to the top prep schools and public feeder schools. They know the rigor, the grading standards. They know that these top private-school kids will be able to handle the work at college. And then there are college counselors to help with apps and last year's graduates already at the college to encourage and answer questions. And then, as Jamimom says, you also have legacy and development factors that may help.</p>
<p>Contrast the advanced course options available at top prep schools with those of Cookiemom's son. He maxed out the courses at his school, but the colleges have to somehow assess whether he can handle the work alongside his possible prep-school classmates. If the challenges aren't there, it is a bit difficult to know his capabilities. So yes, you can shine in in a regular public school, but it doesn't mean you'll get into a selective college. Doesn't mean you won't either, but chances are probably much better from an established feeder school or elite prep, even if a kid's not right at the top. </p>
<p>Of course bright and motivated kids do get in from all sorts of schools. Cookiemom's son shows that this can be done, but as she said, he is someone who takes initiative. I'm sure that was a key part of his success thus far, and it will continue to help him to do well. Congrats to him, Cookiemom. He deserves lots of delicious cookies, and some for you too for being supportive I'm sure.</p>
<p>SkepticalSenior, it sounds as if you did quite well for yourself at your school and enjoyed it very much. Congratulations on getting into your first-choice college!</p>
<p>Correction:
Paragraph 2, line 4: </p>
<p>The selective colleges are familiar WITH the top prep schools...</p>
<p>(sorry)</p>
<p>I think it is a mistake to choose to pay for prep school with the belief that it will lead to an ivy. You have to figure the class of 100+ is made of up predominantly of kids who would have been stars at their local public. You've got to be investing in the education and the eye-opening experiences. Of course, we live on the west coast and the Ivy-drive is not so strong here, so perhaps it is easier for me to say that!</p>
<p>That being said, my DD is a star at her prep (not one of those famous 7), top 5 rank (they don't rank individually, only grouped), tons of "pins on the blazer" and 4.0UW with AP classes. I don't know how she'll do on admissions, but she is a better person for the experience that SHE has had. She has been able to have some outstanding teachers 2 and even 3 years in a row, and loves them and learns like crazy. It has been perfect for her and she is looking at some LACs...would have been all LACs, but her sport is not that big there. The small environment has allowed her to grow and shine in a way that the big public (1000+ kids per grade) probably would not have done. It has been outstanding for her, but I think this is a personality-type decision. My DD does not compete to be better than her peers so much as she tries to be her personal best, so being surrounded by other bright kids is exciting, not depressing. </p>
<p>If your kid wants to compare to other kids (which many kids and parents do) then it might be somewhat self-defeating to not be one of the best.</p>
<p>It is really a personal choice. I think the mistake is to think it will be a big help in admissions, I think it needs to be a big help i personal development and if that happens, admits should follow----to the best fitting schools.</p>
<p>All of that sounds good, but then, it is still true that kid #18 at prep school, who would have been #2 in public and also might have had better leadership accolades in public, could consider themselves "screwed" by the prep school. The top 10 in the prep school still get remarkable attention, it is the 2nd 10 that are missing the boat a bit. The top 20-30 are probably ending up in the same places they otherwise would have....so there is that small band of kids who do "lose out," if their goal was top 10 school.</p>
<p>cookiemom - I don't know all the details about your son but it sounds like he was in a somewhat similar situation to my son, who went to a large public high school which is not geared to admission to top colleges and who is now a junior at Stanford. In my son's case, he earned top scores on his SAT 1, SAT 2s (a lot through self-study on those as much of the material wasn't covered in his courses), and his AP exams. I am guessing that if a student does EXTREMELY well on ALL of these tests compared to other applicants, a college can't deny that he or she is well prepared regardless of what school he or she comes from. He also attended CTY and our state's science Governor's School and sought out a summer internship related to his interests (which he was very lucky to get), as well as taking part in the usual school related extracurricular and community activities. I also worried all through high school that he would suffer from not attending a prep school, as some of his classmates left the public schools after eighth grade to go to prep schools. We kept telling him that if he took advantage of all of the opportunities he had, everything would work out fine, and in his case it did. But I know how you feel, I too would have been upset if it hadn't worked out for him and would have felt that I should have sent him to a prep school more geared toward preparing students for top college admission.</p>
<p>Cookiemom:</p>
<p>Many public high schools enable their advanced students to take courses at local colleges so the standouts will still be standouts.
In fact, this was one reason we stuck with the public school. Even the top private schools are unlikely to offer a course past linear algebra and multivariable calculus., and their relative isolation makes transport to a nearby college difficult.
We considered BU Academy, which sends its juniors and seniors to BU for courses, but then decided we could get the same kind of courses for our S by sticking with our public hs. The Harvard Extension School welcomes high school students. In a MV Calc class of 83 last year, 53 were high schoolers from nearby districts. I know of at least one student from a neighboring district who took a Latin course, and a couple who took Introductory Biology there. At $600 per course, it's a bargain.</p>