<p>Originaloog:</p>
<p>That seems to me a good approach, separating the trivial from the consequential.</p>
<p>The girl in The Gatekeepers was the only one who had the integrity to confess she’d tasted the brownie. There was a happy ending for her, she got into Cornell (but in Jan. not Sept.) because instead of only an admissions committee they have professors doing admissions and one went to bat for her.</p>
<p>Maybe this is another example of the disconnect between some colleges’ overall policies and their admissions policies. I mean, I also like Wes, but do they sanction students who smoke pot on campus in any way? Would it be inconceivable for a club there to sponsor a Smoke Marijuana While Wearing a Homemade Hemp Hat fundraiser? This is the same sort of disconnect that happens when an LD student starts to apply to a school that has a very solid LD support program and then is advised that it might not be the best idea to mention the LD in the appliction. Huh?</p>
<p>I’m wondering, as I skim this thread, why isn’t a student’s discipline record considered confidential information? Let’s say a minor (maybe 16 years old) student got into a fight at school and the police were summoned, as they often are, and the student was suspended for 2-3 days and received a typical disturbing the peace charge and was fined a sizable fine. This is customary in my area–fights require that the police be called and citations are almost always issued. </p>
<p>Why isn’t this information confidential? Employers are often hesitant to share negative info related to former employees due to risk of litigation…And, isn’t it unfair/imbalanced to have some schools are sharing this information and others refusing to share?</p>
<p>Our son’s app did require him to indicate whether he had ever been suspended or disciplined in high school; he had an in-school suspension for two days freshman year. The GC told us they were not going to reveal the suspension to the college. We decided he would tell the college about the suspension as it was the only correct/moral/ethical thing to do. He was allowed space on the app to explain and was admitted without any issues. As someone else here indicated, it was a definite learning experience for him and in the long run made him a better person.</p>
<p>Y’all are missing one major point. On almost all of the applications for selective schools, the STUDENT has to disclose any suspensions or convictions and has to write an explanatory essay. I don’t remember if the Gatekeepers girl did her essay in response to this question or if it was her main essay.
My son had to write an “explanation of suspension or expulsion” essay and it was quite good. We learned that the whole situation wasn’t going to hurt him in the slightest. If he had to do so now, he would also have a conviction. It’s for reckless driving (speeding), but it IS a conviction and would have to be disclosed. Why should the school guidance counselor be the one to disclose this? None of their business, in my opinion.</p>
<p>Cross posted with mikesmom.
S didn’t even cover freshman year in his explanations. It was a different school and there weren’t enough admissions officers to read as much as he would have to explain…</p>
<p>Son#1 also had to disclose a suspension on his application and also had to fess up to the college coach that was recruiting him—he was honest, forthright and his essay on his suspension was beautifully written—I honestly think it may have helped him in the long run as he showed resiliency and an ability to look at a serious mistake he made and learn from it</p>
<p>I am glad he had to do this as I think while he has made other mistakes since (don’t they all) he grew immensely through this process</p>
<p>Most highschool counselors do not fill out those forms supplied to them. They write a “one size fits all” recommendation for their students and just attach them to those forms or just stick the paper with the rec into the envelope. The reason for this is that some students have been denied from top schools because a counselor may have checked off some boxes other than the top level even though he may have felt the kid was tremendous, only to find out that lesser candidates being accepted whose counselors are less meticulous in their ratings. I believe I read this form one of the “tell all” books. It really puts a counselor on the spot since there is no right way to answer those questions. It’s supposed to be your gut reaction, but to have admissions decisions made on a random person’s opinion like that is not a good way to get an accurate picture, especially with so many out to “game” the system. It’s come to the point that a well written recommendation from a counselor who knows how to reach the adcom is a real advantage. It bothers me that that so many schools give such weight to these recs when it really is a random thing–who your student picks (can be the best teacher who writes lousy recs) and the training and emphasis a school gives about these recs. That is where a good private school with a track record for getting kids into selective schools is a great advantage. I’m afraid many recs, particularly from larger schools whose students do not usually go to top school are very bland and uninformative. Some may even be detrimental if unfortunate key words are used.</p>
<p>The problem is that all things equal, a kid who has had a problem is going to be “behind” a kid who doesn’t. Even a fantastic essay can’t always convince how much someone has learned from something. Particularly if the incident occurred junior or senior year and was a stupid thing to do. There some things that defy explanations. The kid made a stupid mistake, and though he may have learned from it, it often is the sort of thing he should have known better and there are no extenuating circumstances. The kid may NOT have turned himself in–but was caught more often than not. </p>
<p>If a kid does NOT self report, however, he does take the risk that the counselor just might have, particularly if the incident is one of a magnitude that reporting seems appropriate. There are some schools that have suspensions, probations at the drop of a hat-- accumulation of three minor demerits on something like lateness, and there are few counselors if any who are going to bother to track those offences. But a major police bust or other big deal high impact offence is a whole different story.</p>
<p>cptofthehouse- While what you said would appear to be the case- that a kid who has had a “problem” is behind one who hasn’t- that isn’t always the case at all. We learned from some very selective schools that the schools actually like kids who have had some “experiences”. Obviously they don’t want a felon or a drug dealer, but many of the normal things kids get busted for CAN be big learning experiences and if a kid has picked themselves up and moved on, this bodes well for success in college. They lean towards this kid over a very sheltered kid who has never had a taste of alcohol or been out of mommy’s sight. In fact, one thing was made VERY clear to us through the whole process (which involved admissions folks and coaches)- alcohol violations (which was not what my son had) are not even on the radar for most colleges. Unless the kid has been selling booze at the junior high, the typical alcohol suspension just doesn’t even raised eyebrows. I’ve seen parents on here tell kids who got busted at the junior prom for spiking the punch that they may as well only apply to state schools. This is incorrect information.</p>
<p>It really depends on the offence and what the kid went through to show he has learned from his experience. I would guess some of the kids “experiences” would make a welcome change of pace from the usual essays promoting self, heh, heh. But most counselors have told me that a behaviour flag to them is an issue. In fact many kids accepted to the top schools and then who get busted after acceptance for behaviour and have to report to the college are often asked to take a year off for community service or go into school on some sort of disciplinary probation. I know firsthand a number of kids who got this sort “sentence”. Now kids who actually went through an unusual experience to redeem themselves may skip that form of time out–that is, some who voluntarily took time out or went through a rehabilatation program with a good essay about it may even be a leg up.</p>
<p>If the behavior occurs in senior year it is a lot more of an issue. The kid needs a track record of no problems AFTER the offense that requires disclosure. Good recs also are crucial. One Ivy coach told me the one recruit he had in many years of getting all his recruits in who were rated “likely” by admissions who did NOT get in was bounced because even though the kid had stellar academics, the principal of the kid’s school called up the Ivy Admissions Dean and told them that the kid was a bad kid and the school should not accept him!</p>
<p>On a related note as MOWC points out, H.S. administrators and GCs can carry a lot of power when talking about college admissions–but I don’t understand why they don’t consider such information to be confidential. If the student shares the information, so be it. But in this age of extreme confidentiality, how can a school legally share such information?? Perhaps it’s done verbally and there’s no paper trail??</p>
<p>There’s no confidentiality protection with respect to these type of things. Medical information is another matter.</p>
<p>Why should this info be confidential? If you look at the questions asked on the rec forms, the colleges want every shred of info on the kids. If anything is confidential, it’s what the recommender says about the kid since most of these forms have a place where the kid signs away his rights to read what is written. He has to trust that the counselor and teachers are not going to give him a bad rec. If he does not waive his rights to see the recs, they are not going to hold as much value in the app process and for selective school, can hurt him. You have no control over what people say about you when they are your references. If you did, they would not be very useful.</p>
<p>Exactly. If you want to get good recs and get into competitive schools, you should have enough common sense to know not to get arrested, get in fights, or experiment with drugs. </p>
<p>It is taken as gospel that kids should participate in EC’s, take the toughest classes available and get excellent grades–how hard is it to stay out of trouble? I really disagree that disciplinary information is somehow sacrosanct when transcripts are available.</p>
<p>If a school can’t disclose disciplinary history what’s next? That the colleges should just take it on faith that the kid got a 4.5 GPA without having access to the transcript?</p>
<p>I disagree, mombot. More kids than you can imagine get in trouble in high school. Nothing wrong with disclosing it, but it isn’t all that easy to stay out of trouble. Kids experiment and there is a lot of peer pressure. I drank and sneaked out of the house all the time in high school. I have a kid who has gotten into a fair amount of trouble, still got great recs and is at a highly selective school. I also disagree with taking the toughest classes available. That was NOT the philosophy at either of my kids’ prep boarding schools. You took challenging classes in the areas of your strength and interest. You were not expected to take Calc BC if you hated math and wanted to focus on English and Lit.<br>
My son’s school expects teenagers to experiment. Obviously, they try to guide and instruct and do their best to prevent bad consequences, but the faculty and administration is realistic.</p>
<p>I have spoken to a number of high school counselors and they all say it CAN hurt. They say this because they have spoken to adcoms who have out and out said that the trouble was a tipping point for waitlist or reject. Not always, admittedly, but it does happen. Depends on the offense, the mea culpa, the admissions counselor, the college, etc. I personally know several kids who were deferred a year or a semester when they got into trouble after acceptance. I doubt they would have been accepted had the incident happened earlier. Folks are cagey about what they have revealed on their apps, and I don’t know if our school would report anything unless it was major. I know they do work with kids on how to handle something like that. I know that they do not fill out the forms at all–just send in a page of recs. I don’t think they bring up the disciplinary record in that rec, unless it is a biggy and they coordinate the explanations with the student. Also at my son’s school, it is very easy to get into trouble for minor things as they do keep track of demerits. The counselors have out and out said not to bother reporting that stuff even if if fits the description of the disciplinary action taken. That is not what the colleges want to know. </p>
<p>Any serious trouble should be reported to the college. In fact any major issue; things with a potential of coming up in college. There have been a number of kids who were denied their admission because they did not bring up something important. And although school issues are confined to highschool years, if a student has been in very serious trouble, say with the law, it should be explained even if it occured earlier. The same with a job. Certain infractions need to be discussed with an employer because if they come up, it can cause a problem. </p>
<p>Momofwildchild, one of my older kids had issues before and after acceptance to college. As he was accepted to most of his schools (though sometimes not to the program he wanted ), it did not seem to be a huge issue. Michigan, CMU, Syracuse, Ithaca are some schools that did not have a problem. However, I do know a young man who applied to some of the most selective schools, and mentioned his issues to half of his schools and did not to the other half. He did not get into the schools where his infraction was revealed. Those schools all contacted his counselor about the incident, and in one case, it was said right out that it was a problem. He did get into all but one of the schools where he did not bring up the incident. His high school says right out they do not respond to the question and it is up to the student. His infraction was being in a car with open containers of booze, and upon a police search, drugs were found. He came up positive on the drug test. He spent a semester going to a drug education facility, and was regularly drug tested the following term. He has not been in subsequent trouble and does community service at a a facility to this day, when he is at home. </p>
<p>However, I know some kids who were kicked out of some pretty selective colleges for drug infractions and managed to transfer into another such school One young man spent time in jail, and was still accepted to a selective LAC. </p>
<p>Drinking and sneaking out of the house, getting into trouble on your own time is one thing. If you get your highschool involved, it’s a whole different story. Many schools will look the other way unless the student is caught by the school or the school is in some way dragged into the matter. I have seen situations and heard feedback both ways as to how colleges treat the matter and it does not always make sense.</p>
<p>Drugs are a big deal to colleges. Alcohol violations are not. I know a young man who was kicked out of the top prep boarding school in December of his senior year for a drinking violation that involved a fake ID and an arrest. He was taken in by another boarding school as a day student and still was accepted to highly selective schools and is attending an Ivy.<br>
Again- if the offense was before junior year or early junior year there is a good chance for remediation. My son had an expulsion to explain (soph year), and it didn’t even phase any of the colleges his counselor at his graduating high school contacted.</p>
<p>A young man we know was expelled his senior year for a drug issue. He managed to get into a fairly selective private school to finish highschool, and is going to a selective college, so I know that it all is not lost even with a drug violation, late in high school. What I am saying, and the counselors who have dealt with this a lot have said, is that it CAN make a difference and at times HAS made a difference at some schools, for some kids, for some incidents. And it can happen with a drinking violation. One thing they are all in agreement is that early violations do not attract the interest of adcoms as much as later ones. Though even those can “swallowed” depending on a variety of factors. But to blanketly say that a “yes” on those forms will not affect acceptance rates is not true. When it comes down to the last minute fury of going through the apps, adcoms may not always take the time to check out the particulars in a close case for admit. And there are adcoms, who do not like those “yeses” especially in selective schools where there are plenty of just as qualified kids with a “no” to those questions where the matter does not have to be discussed and weighed. So , no, it is not going to “ruin” ones chances at colleges, but, yes, it can have a negative effect, and may well have some, particularly at selective schools where the onus becomes who to reject rather than to accept with the numbers they have.</p>