Brown (PLME) vs. Harvard

Colleges and Universities A-Z Brown University
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<p>Hey everyone! I’m a long time lurker of this board but I just decided to make an account so I could get everyone’s input on a decision I’m having a tough time making.</p>

<p>I was fortunate (and lucky) enough to be accepted to some amazing schools (Harvard, Brown (PLME), MIT (EA), Yale, LSE, Penn (LSM), Notre Dame, etc) this application round, and at the moment, I’m swinging back and forth between two amazing places: Brown and Harvard.</p>

<p>Harvard has the unparalleled name recognition and that’s great and all, but it’s not the most important thing to me. I love Harvard because I think that their blend of academic/intelectual spirit with social life/extra curricular involvement is something I would really enjoy. I want to stay busy and yet still have a good time in college. I don’t mind tough classes or having to work hard, but I need that fun and relaxing component as well. I definitely feel Harvard has that. What concerns me are the Harvard pre-med horror stories, the possibility of not getting into a “good” medical school (or any medical school at all), and the lack of strong pre-professional advising. I’d probably go crazy taking the MCAT, trying to find a balance in my courses/grades/social life, and worrying about applications all over again. I feel like Harvard is the riskier option, but the reward could also be bigger (like getting into HMS). </p>

<p>Now Brown… I think saying that I love Brown is probably an understatement. I actually applied ED to PLME and got deferred; I honestly never thought I had a shot. The offer of the guaranteed spot at a really good medical school is really really hard to turn down. I know I shouldn’t fret about it, but you can’t deny that Harvard undergrad is more prestigious than Brown. The way my uncle (a Harvard alum) puts it is “A Harvard diploma gets you places.” Still, I have no doubt that I’d get a fantastic education at Brown while also having a really good time. As far as the quality of education goes, I don’t see a huge difference in any way. The open curriculum really appeals to me, but so does the more focused approach I would probably take at Harvard. </p>

<p>My questions for you: Can anyone in the PLME elaborate on how you think your undergraduate experience would have been different if you had just gone the traditional route? Do a lot of PLMEs study abroad or major in the liberal arts? I know the Brown atmosphere is very friendly… would you say the same about the atmosphere in the program?</p>

<p>At this moment, I’m probably leaning a little bit towards Brown, but honestly, I’ve been changing my mind every day for the past week. I know I’m really lucky to be in this position, but life would have been A LOT easier if I had only been admitted to one… But alas, the apocalypse - oops, I mean May 1st - is approaching. What are your thoughts? Have you been in a similar position? What did you decide? If you were me, what would you choose and why? </p>

<p>I know I’d be happy at either of this schools, and it’s just killing me. AHHHH. I’m posting something similar on the Harvard thread too so I can get perspectives from either side, but please please please try to convince me either way. </p>

<p>Thanks in advance!! :)</p>

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<p>Some questions to help you sort your decision: These may sound obvious, but really take a hard look at yourself and answer them “afresh”.

  1. How absolutely positive are you that you want to go into medicine?
  2. What do you envision yourself doing/ wanting to do in medicine? (research, high level super competitive residency, etc.)
  3. Are you happy if you have to work harder than at least 3/4 of your college mates. Are you willing to give up a lot of extra-curriculars, parties, trips, study abroad etc?
    For instance, which, if you got to choose, would you RATHER do: Have an intense lab project for a year or study abroad?
  4. How much did you enjoy the college application process and would you have problems with the intensity of that being multiplied by a factor of 5-10?
    Ask tons of questions that are very detailed when you go on both of your visits. Both schools students will tell you lots of great things about their school, but it is the extra questions you ask that can be more “telling”. Some things to consider: If you did research, did you have a lot of options to choose from? What did you do outside of school work this week, last week, the week before? (It can be great being in Boston, but how much time does a premed get off campus?) To upperclassmen: how many of your premed freshman friends are still premed? What are their majors? What did they do during their summers? How many have gone abroad? What are PLME answers specifically to these questions?
    Good luck on your decision. Spend as much time on each campus and with students as you can, (even an extra day if possible.)</p>
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<p>I can’t even express how much I love PLME. I’m currently studying abroad, a music concentrator, and still able to go to medical school! PLME has provided all of those opportunities to me. I’m not saying that it’s impossible to study abroad or concentrate outside the sciences as a typical pre-med, but it’s much more difficult.</p>

<p>It’s true that Harvard has that name distinction, but name distinction of your undergrad isn’t really that important if you’re going into medicine. Your med school and residency programs matter much more.</p>

<p>Feel free to PM me if you have more specific questions.</p>

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<p>Just wanted to address the Harvard “wow” factor that you alluded to in your post. I’m a Brown grad married to a Harvard graduate. The wow piece is vastly overrated. Harvard didn’t help her in the real world at all. We sometimes socialize with some of her Harvard classmates at a vacation home on The Cape that one of them owns. Mind you, these are older Harvard grads. One drives a truck for, get this, the health insurance. Some, like my SO wouldn’t even let their own children apply because they were embittered by the experience. Brown is extremely prestigious among the subset of people who matter. You will find that the main library at Brown is named after John D. Rockefeller, Jr. He is the wealthiest man in American history. His wealth and influence, in inflation adjusted dollars, significantly exceeded what Biil Gates has in wealth and influence today. His leagacy extends to some of the most significant institutions all over the world. It should also be noted, he turned down Yale to matriculate at Brown. It should also be noted, that Brown significantly bests Harvard when surveys come out about whether students are happy at the school they have chosen. This is just a FYI.</p>

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<p>Thanks for your input guys! It was really helpful.</p>

<p>@Bruno14, thanks for your thoughts and for talking a bit about your experiences as a PLME. I definitely want to study abroad and and major in Philosophy/Polisci… so PLME really can’t be beat.</p>

<p>@Galanter, thanks for your thoughts. I agree that prestige isn’t all-important (it’s why I turned down MIT and Yale almost immediately even though their “rankings” are higher than Brown/Notre Dame/Penn… they just weren’t a good fit for me). I think, for me, the prestige of Harvard is more about my own childhood dream of wanting to go there & putting it on a pedestal, but I definitely appreciate your examples and insight. </p>

<p>@BrownAlumParent, thank you SO MUCH. These were exactly the questions someone needed to ask me. I’ve been chewing on them today, and the more I think about it, I know Brown is where I’ll be happiest and have the best time. I’m still going to go to Visitas before I make a final decision, but I think I know what I’m going to do! Go Bears!</p>

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<p>Actually, I can deny that Harvard is more prestigious than Brown. Harvard, Brown, Yale, and Penn diplomas will all get you the exact same places (and if we’re talking math/science fields, MIT is right up there with them). ND is the only one that will be a step down in the prestige game, and I’d recommend against LSE if your plans are an american MD as I don’t know if AMCAS recognizes them.</p>

<p>Other than the Harvard/Yale game, I don’t really hear much nostalgia coming from either of those recent graduates in the way Brown (and Duke although not relevant to you) alumni talk. In fact, I have heard Harvard alumni say medical school is more enjoyable than undergrad. That’s a really sad thought because as much as I love medical school, on a fun scale it’s not even in the same galaxy as Brown was.</p>

<p>Now, if PLME was really the only thing attracting you to Brown (which doesn’t sound like the case), I would say don’t bother as the fact that you got into PLME indicates there’s a very good chance you’ll get into medical school in 4 years coming out of HYPBM, but if the only thing keeping you from committing to Brown is the fear that you’re missing out on the “benefits” of Hahhhhhvaahhhhd’s name, then go PLME and don’t look back.</p>

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<p>I hear you I<em>wanna</em>be_Brown. The people that matter know Brown and it’ll still get me the same places. </p>

<p>Harvard IS number one for a reason though. Just by the numbers, I have a better chance of getting into Hopkins MS or Harvard MS if I go there… Don’t get me wrong, I’m not prestige obsessed (I would have picked ND over Yale/MIT/Penn any day based on fit), but the name does count for something. Whether this is worth more than my happiness is another question (it’s not). I love PLME and I love BROWN but I also love Harvard so that’s what was really making this decision difficult. </p>

<p>But after ADOCH, thinking through what BrownAlumParent said and talking to some other Brown & PLME students, I’m pretty sure I, too, want to be Brown!</p>

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<p>Ok, fine, you’re right that harvard has better brand recognition and that does count for…“something.”</p>

<p>With regard to harvard/hopkins med school, you are misinterpreting the data (unless you have access to data I have never seen). Harvard graduates may or may not have the highest chance of getting into harvard or hopkins. I know that if you are a harvard medical student, the undergrad you most likely attended is Harvard and I believe the same is true for Hopkins, but that’s a different statement.</p>

<p>This is not to discredit the success of Harvard students. They are excellent, but do not think Harvard is what made them successful.</p>

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<p>I would definitely say my experience would have been different had I gone the more traditional premed route at another university or even here at Brown. I’m only a freshman, and I can already sense the stress regular premed students have when taking courses and trying to overwhelm themselves to get into medical school. Just by that, I am ridiculously relieved that I am not under as much stress, and while doing well in my classes is important, I don’t feel like I have to overdo any aspect of my college career (clubs, hard courses, volunteer work, research, etc…) like many other students do. In fact, acclimating to college was/is hard enough, so having that guaranteed future really helps get you through those rough patches. Essentially, I can walk around saying that I want to do really well in everything I try, but I don’t have to beat myself up over it if it doesn’t go as planned. </p>

<p>As for studying abroad, I know quite a few PLMEs that choose to stay here for their entire career and some that begin studying abroad as early as the summer after freshman year. It really just depends on what you want, but PLME does have neat programs abroad. Most PLMEs seem to have a knack for the liberal arts in addition to science, which really fits the program’s purpose in having a wide array of interests that end up making a well-versed, better doctor. </p>

<p>I’m a Theatre Arts and Human Biology concentrator, and balancing both of the areas is not too hard at all. My adviser is practically encouraging me to just do Theatre Arts. I’d even say double concentrating and dabbling at different areas at Brown seems to be much easier than at other universities… The PLME even relieves some stress for its students and removes Orgo 2 and a second sequence of math as premed requirements in order to allow you more free space to experiment with different departments. </p>

<p>The PLME community is also very friendly and not a cold, competitive atmosphere. We have PLME Senate, which is basically a unit of officers that organizes events for all of us to get to know each other at various times of the year. It has its own tutors, learning specialist (if you need help with studying), faculty advisers (who really get to know you on a personal level), and four student advisers for each student. I have not gone into the PLME office once without being greeted or offered some sort of food. It is very welcoming and you begin to feel at home with the students and faculty.</p>

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<p>This may be a little more long-term, but you should also consider the programs and resources of not only Alpert, but of surrounding hospitals (eg RI Hospital, Merriam, etc). Alpert, I believe, has been pushing towards the creation of primary care and geriatric initiatives in recent years. </p>

<p>I know plenty of PLMEs, who like bruno14 and popcharlie93, really enjoy their experience. It’s flexible, accommodating, and welcoming. It enables you to pursue interests that you probably might not have looked into following a traditional premedical route. The requirements are such that you don’t have to overwork yourself.</p>

<p>On the other hand, I know several PLMEs who have become disenchanted with the program, primarily because committing to PLME limits your future choices, should you develop other interests in medicine or otherwise. For instance, Brown, while offering great research opportunities, isn’t a “research powerhouse” in the same sense that other schools are; I believe that Brown also recently disbanded their MD/PhD program. The other reason - which I fully disclaim that I am not qualified to meaningfully comment on - is the difference in the type of work ethic and values fostered by the PLME program versus by the pre-med culture at Brown and other universities. I may be making a mountain out of a molehill, but I vehemently disagree with popcharlie93 in his statement that PLMEs have an inherent “knack” for liberal arts, simultaneously implying that pre-med students at Brown are somehow inferior or generally unskilled/uninterested in fields outside of the sciences (because that’s the only concentration that pre-meds pursue?). </p>

<p>My point is that choosing PLME or choosing a non-PLME/pre-med path should be a fit for you as well. Not just now, but also many years down the road.</p>

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<p>“I believe that Brown also recently disbanded their MD/PhD program” – Where you get this info???</p>

<p>Please see below -
[Overview</a> | MD/PhD Program](<a href=“http://brown.edu/academics/medical/education/other-programs/md-phd/]Overview”>Warren Alpert Physician-Scientist MD/PhD and Advanced Training Program | Brown University)</p>

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<p>I was under the impression that one of the criteria that are used to select PLME students is liberal arts ability (that is, in fact, that the L stands for). So I don’t think it’s incorrect at all (especially based on personal experience) to say that PLMEs have a knack for the liberal arts.</p>

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<p>Thank you all for your input. My talks with current PLMEs and some of the thoughts that you guys have contributed have really helped me make my decision. I’m coming to Brown! (It’s official - I just committed today!)</p>

<p>I was sorry to hear that Visitas was canceled (and obviously devastated by everything happening in Boston)… I’m so glad that they finally caught the 2nd suspect, and I hope everyone at Harvard/in the Boston area is feeling safer now. </p>

<p>Boston is an amazing city, and I know I would have a wonderful undergraduate experience at Harvard… However, I just know that Brown is where my heart is leading me… Looking forward to the next 8 years!</p>

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<p>@BigFire. Thank you for the correction. It seems that I was misinformed. Typically, I refer to MD/PhD in the MSTP context - a mistake on my part - of which Brown is no longer a part of ([Medical</a> Scientist Training Program (MSTP) Institutions - National Institute of General Medical Sciences](<a href=“http://www.nigms.nih.gov/Training/InstPredoc/PredocInst-MSTP.htm]Medical”>http://www.nigms.nih.gov/Training/InstPredoc/PredocInst-MSTP.htm)). Sorry for spreading misinformation. </p>

<p>@thecomisar. Thank you for pointing that fact out. I am aware of the selection criteria for admissions to PLME. I still disagree, but my reasons are not relevant for this thread’s discussion. </p>

<p>@northeastdreamin. Congratulations! You will have an amazing and a very fulfilling time at Brown and with PLME as well. I wish you the best of luck. :)</p>

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<p>Brown’s PLME gives you the latitude to explore horizons you may hesitate to explore if you go the traditional route with its preoccupation with GPA, extra-curriculars and MCAT scores. I was a PLME and was delighted to not worry about grades. I took classes way out side of my comfort zone and got B’s as grades, but it didn’t matter because I needed to maintain only a modest GPA and MCAT score to continue into medical school at PLME.</p>

<p>As for preparing for the MCAT’s, I spent all of ONE day to prepare and got a good enough score to continue. Life is filled with too many wonderful things to learn and experience to waste on GPA-focused undergraduate mentality.</p>

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<p>I am under the impression that if one takes MCAT while at Brown they need to reapply to med school?</p>

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<p>You can take the MCAT while at Brown and still be a part of PLME. If you then decide to apply out, you lose your spot.</p>

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<p>@MidWestFather thanks for your input (i’ve already chosen Brown though). Also, it sounds like the PLME requirements/perks just keep getting better (no MCAT OR GPA requirement at all anymore)! And by better, I don’t mean “slacker” I mean they make college less stressful, more enjoyable, and continue to help us become better people not just better scientists!</p>