<p>Another issue to address: I don’t feel I got any great advising while at Harvard. Certainly nothing better than what I found at Berkeley. I made an effort at Berkeley to meet my faculty, and get mentored, and get good advising there. Regarding class size- many of my classes at Harvard were quite large. I had a class at Berkeley with 10 students- taught by a faculty member that was distinguished in his field. Again, I Do not think you can say Ivy =small classes, better advising. Berkeley had all that for me. I do think if you have the $ you should visit the Berkeley campus. It is quite unique. You might as well visit an Ivy, really any would do (except maybe Dartmouth, I think that one is an outlier- and Columbia because it is in the heart of NYC ) to compare.</p>
<p>
Harvard is frequently bashed for its attention to undergraduates, or lack thereof, and it fared poorly in the COFHE student satisfaction survey. Whether this is entirely accurate or not (I suspect it is greatly exaggerated), I can’t say, but in any case Harvard has a reputation for having some of the unhappiest students in the Ivy League, whereas Brown has a reputation for having (some of) the happiest. </p>
<p>Brown has only 8400 students on campus, almost 3/4 of which are undergraduates. Harvard has 21,000 students, of which less than 1/3 are undergraduates. Arts & sciences undergraduates outnumber grad students at Brown by a ratio nearly double that of Harvard. They are by no means interchangeable institutions. </p>
<p>
I am happy that you had a small class…no doubt it was highly memorable.</p>
<p>Perhaps we should compare the sizes of the undergraduate classes at Berkeley and Brown this semester before citing anecdotal evidence, however.</p>
<p>Berkeley intro to poli sci: 333
Brown intro to poli sci: 109</p>
<p>Berkeley average PS class size: 115
Brown average PS class size: 39</p>
<p>Berkeley median PS class size: 55
Brown median PS class size: 29</p>
<p>There are some stark differences between the two. Brown’s upper-level political science courses range from 3 students to 155, with only 3 courses having over 50 students. </p>
<p>At Berkeley, all except 2 courses have more than 50 students, and more than 1/3 have 100+ students. </p>
<p>The number of undergraduate courses offered at Berkeley this semester (21) is virtually identical to that of Brown (19) – in fact, Brown would take the lead if you factored in the separately administered IR courses. Given that Berkeley has twice as many political scientists on staff as Brown, one can draw one’s own conclusions about the dedication to undergraduate teaching. </p>
<p>
I’m sure you’re right. I’ve always said that a go-getter can do perfectly well at a large university (public or private). Heck, I’ve often noted that I got quite close to several professors at my large in-state public as an undergrad.</p>
<p>I was thinking more of career and professional advising rather than academic. Berkeley’s embarrassingly weak performance in things like postgraduate fellowship production are largely due to inadequate advising, not a lack of good students. (For example, Brown has produced more Rhodes Scholars in the last couple of years than Berkeley has since the 1960s.) Premed advising is notoriously poor, though not relevant to the OP.</p>
<p>Funny that Warble should mention poor premed advising at Berkeley- in fact, I am a physician and found premed advising was fine. I got into all my top choices for medical school. Regarding Rhodes Scholars- honestly, I think the interest among Berkeley students just isn’t there. I never considered it, and I can’t recall many who did. What Berkeley has produced since the 1960’s is the largest number of Peace Corps volunteers of any university. I served as a PCV in Africa- there were 3 other Cal grads in my group of 20. The Berkeley environment encourages students to enter public service programs such as Peace Corps, and again, that is a unique quality to Cal that is probably unmatched by any other university (with the exception of religious colleges).</p>
<p>Average dollar amount of institutional financial aid awarded to undergraduate degree seeking nonresident aliens</p>
<p>Brown: $40,145 (awarded to 188 undergraduates in 2010-11)
Berkeley: Not Available</p>
<p>
I don’t know how you can be so sure. It’s also possible that because As are given like candies at Brown, people don’t put in as much work. Fear and stress are often the best motivator. </p>
<p>
Again, I don’t know how you can be so sure it’s “Brown education”, not Brown grade-inflation, that’s doing the trick. Grad schools love high GPAs and have no incentive to take grade deflation into account and admit affected students with lower GPAs (average GPA is a factor in magazines’ rankings), whether they “value Brown education” or not. If I recall correctly, the average GPA at Brown is over 3.6, which is insane.</p>
<p>Brown is an Ivy, Berkeley isn’t… Brown is much higher ranked</p>
<p>Look at average SAT scores:</p>
<p>Brown (2000-2300)
Berkeley (1840-2230)</p>
<p>“Brown is an Ivy, Berkeley isn’t”</p>
<p>You are right. That is why Brown is so much better than MIT, Cal Tech, Stanford, Chicago and Duke.</p>
<p>
I have never lived in Europe, so I can’t speak for the Europeans. But the way you chose your words raises a flag about your objectivity. In Asia, Berkeley definitely has better reputation, not “may”. That’s not even a question. By “reputation”, I mean the educated crowds, not particularly the high schoolers that are in the process of applying to American colleges and looking at the undergraduate rankings. In Asia and anywhere else for that matter and at any given point, there are way more people looking to apply to graduate+professional schools than undergraduate schools in the US. </p>
<p>But when it comes to Europe and curiously, you have no reservation about Brown’s better reputation. May I ask where that reputation comes from, considering Brown lacks notable grad programs and no professional school? As mentioned, at any given point outside the US, there are way more peole looking to apply for graduate schools than colleges in the US. Most foreign students graduate from top schools as graduate students, not undergrads. These are the people that go back and spread the words; the internaional rankings are pretty much all based on graduate programs, in which, Brown does poorly in all of them. Given all these, I find it hard to believe that Berkeley somehow would have worse reputation among the educated fraction of the public in Europe. Maybe if Brown has pretty good graduate and professional programs, it may holds its own overall but that’s not really the case.</p>
<p>
Not just rankings. I spent the summer working on a research project with some students from Bristol in the UK. Many of them were familiar with American schools through shows like Gossip Girl. Wonderfully representative to be sure, LOL!</p>
<p>On a more serious note, I recommend the OP get in touch with the [Brown</a> alum groups in Beijing and/or Shanghai](<a href=“Communities & Interests | Alumni & Friends | Brown University”>Communities & Interests | Alumni & Friends | Brown University). They should be able to provide information about how difficult it is for Brown students to get a job there.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t lump berkeley into the category of MIT Stanford Caltech…</p>
<p>Berkeley is way down the ladder:</p>
<ol>
<li>H</li>
<li>Y</li>
<li>S</li>
<li>P</li>
<li>Caltech</li>
<li>MIT
7. Brown</li>
<li>Columbia</li>
<li>Penn</li>
<li>Dartmouth</li>
<li>Duke</li>
<li>Chicago</li>
<li>Duke</li>
<li>Cornell</li>
<li>GeorgeTown</li>
<li>Northwestern
17. Berkeley</li>
</ol>
<p>The above “ranking” is ridiculous. Berkeley is #5 for number of Nobel Laureates. Brown doesn’t even hit the top 10… Duke? For real? I know they have a good Lacrosse team that likes to party (a little too much apparently). Comparing Duke to Cal is like comparing an old cloth diaper to a state of the art Pampers sensitive swaddler. This will make most sense to those who have changed diapers!</p>
<p>
Someone is incredibly jealous that Duke is awesome enough to have been ranked both #11 and #13, methinks.</p>
<p>I just returned from Parent’s Weekend at Cal (that’s what the students, family, friends, and community call it). My son is a freshman engineering major there. </p>
<p>I wouldn’t get too concerned over the rankings. They are both top-tier, well-regarded schools and the similarities probably end there. Where you feel most comfortable would be the key. </p>
<p>I was amazed at how personable the students were at Cal during my 4 days both on and off campus. My wife and I used the public bus transportation throughout our stay and each and every time students would strike up a conversation and/or help us navigate our way around. The school spirit was electric. Lots of Cal clothing is worn to class. Most of the students did lots of Cal cheers at both sporting events we attended (men’s football and women’s volleyball). The restaurant choices in the city of Berkeley are endless. Berkeley has a more diverse and vibrant feel than Providence. Getting into Boston (where my daughter goes to school) is more difficult than taking a 20 minute train at Cal, which can be caught at the edge of campus, into San Francisco. You probably have a better chance of your professors getting to know you easier at Brown. </p>
<p>The one thing that stood out for me during my most recent visit to Cal was the commitment, on the part of alumni and professors alike, of giving back to the community and making the world a better place overall. The emphasis on research, in fulfilling this goal, was constantly present.</p>
<p>^ What do you mean when you say, “personable”? What exactly do you mean by that?</p>
<p>COME TO CAL! Although i’m slightly biased because i’m actually a Golden Bear myself, you will not be disappointed in your decision to come to Northern California. Love the people. Life. Food. Weather is ok, but academics are AMAZING!</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Below a list of other undergraduate rankings reported by 50topcolleges.com. 5 of the 6 rank Brown ahead of Berkeley. The exception is Washington Monthly. I believe Washington Monthly and Forbes are the only ones that factor faculty awards into their formulas.</p>
<p>My alma mater is #3 in the global Nobel count. The recipients were nice to have around … they may have lifted overall research quality … but I never had a class with any of them. </p>
<p>Brown
Revealed Preference: #7
State University: #12
WSJ - Top Feeder Schools: #12
US News & World Report: #15
Forbes: #45
Washington Monthly: #63</p>
<p>Mean: 13.5
Index (relative ranking of Mean): 12</p>
<p>Berkeley
Washington Monthly: #2
US News & World Report: #22
Revealed Preference: #27
WSJ - Top Feeder Schools: #41
Forbes: #65
State University (National): #140</p>
<p>Mean: 34.0
Index: 34</p>
<p>^ Revealed References??? That’s a totally crap ranking, if that appears to be a ranking to you. </p>
<p>Payscale ranked Berkeley ahead of Brown 3 times in the last 4 years. And, for ROI, Berkeley > Brown. Even an OOS for Berkeley would yield better/faster ROI than Brown does. <a href=“http://www.payscale.com/education/average-cost-for-college-ROI[/url]”>http://www.payscale.com/education/average-cost-for-college-ROI</a></p>
<p>Not saying this to demean Brown. I think Brown is a fantastic school, a peer of Berkeley for undergrad education. The OP should choose based on fit.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Yes, Revealed Preferences does appear to be a ranking to me. It’s just one more approach, one that drives data on ~3,000 student choices through a statistical model. If it were “totally crap”, I don’t think its top-N result set would so closely mirror the result sets of other rankings. The precise ordering within these sets is another thing (they all differ, more or less, on that.)</p>
<p>I just reported the rankings that one web site (50topcolleges.com) collected, which suggests a fairly clear consensus favoring one of these two schools. If anyone thinks Payscale is a better ranking, then go with that. I could agree with the bigger point that the OP should choose based on fit (if in fact he has a clear personal preference.)</p>
<p>^ 3,000 students in the East Coast, you mean.</p>
<p>My school’s better than your school. Nyah nyah nyah nyah!</p>
<p>And then the inevitable reference to totally bogus rankings. </p>
<p>OP, they are both wonderful schools. Berkeley clearly wins on weather. Go to whichever is cheapest.</p>