Berkeley vs. Brown

Parents Forum
1

<p>Hello all,</p>

<p>My name is Eric and I found out today via snail mail (couldn't log onto the Brown site) that I have been accepted into Brown. I posted this in the Brown forums but I would really appreciate the perspective of a parent.</p>

<p>I came into the whole college mix totally confused and oblivious to what schools had to offer, and before I make my decision I want to know that it wasn't rushed.</p>

<p>I applied to a bunch of hard-to-reach schools and got either rejected or waitlisted at them. I was accepted into UC Berkeley, Washington U. in St. Louis, and now Brown.</p>

<p>Before today I was set out (like 90%) on going to Berkeley. I love science and I think I'm going to major in physics. I always thought it would be neat to be a college professor and to do research side-by-side. I am not preppy at all, I am not too competitive, and I love the East Coast's weather/environment/feel (I live in California and I'm bored of it now).</p>

<p>More importantly my parents feel Berkeley is the school for me. My dad majored in physics and he wants me to get the best education for a not-too-expensive price. He says that Berkeley is the best choice for me for its undergraduate physics program truly excels. I believe him, but here is where the problem arises: how I would fit in.</p>

<p>Brown seems to be a perfect fit for my personality. I'm rather mild-mannered and am extremely liberal. I love community service, nature, and great in-class discussions with a small group of students who aren't stupid.</p>

<p>However, Berkeley seems to fit more for my aspirations (according to my parents). I plan on getting a Ph.D in physics and what better place to get experience/the facilities than in Berkeley, one of the top notch schools in the sciences?</p>

<p>I would like to know about how great the phsyics/math departments at Brown really are. My parents say that Berkeley has better facilities and an overall better education for science, but I don't know how much to believe that. Parents of students who attend Brown or Berkeley, can you attest to that?</p>

<p>The third problem (and possibly the biggest) is the cost. Berkeley is about 25k per year; Brown is double that amount. My parents want me to go to Berkeley, and they'd gladly pay the whole tuition for me. If I went to Brown, they'd only pay half of it and I'd have to fetch a loan for the other 25k...it's going to put me in debt for some time.</p>

<p>I am really strained now because before today I felt kinda glum about not getting into any schools in the East, where I want to be (away from home). The people at Berkeley seem too snobby and stressed/pressured from what I've heard...but I also want to get a decent undergrad education so I can get into a solid graduate school. Advice on what to do?</p>

2

<p>No one is going to give you a loan for $100k over four years, so it's really a non-issue. </p>

<p>But if they did (which they won't), $100k at 7% (if you can get it, which I doubt) paid out over 10 years is $1,161.08 each and every month.</p>

<p>Still interested?</p>

3

<p>If your parents won't pay the difference, you can't do it. Sorry. My kids were stuck with the same problem when it came to choosing parents.</p>

4

<p>realgeneric--</p>

<p>You didn't say whether you're from NoCal or SoCal. If the latter, I really believe that NoCal's climate is totally different, and very similar in some respects to that of Providence (except no snow in Berkeley!). In fact, both kids preferred SoCal to NoCal just for that reason.</p>

<p>It's a tough choice to make. Have you visited either Berkeley or Brown so you can compare them first-hand? That's probably the best, but not the most economic, way to make your decision.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

5

<p>Have you visited Berkeley? Can you go to CalDay? Berkeley is not snobby, and certainly not snobbier than Brown! It has a wide range of economic and ethnic diversity, for one thing, including lots of first-generation immigrants. It is has a beautiful campus; its science departments are first rate. Lots of kids love it there (the crazy negativity of some of the people posting on the Berkeley sites here is almost bizarre -- don't be misled; see it for yourself). Especially if you want to go on for a PhD, it is unadvisable to go into debt, even if you can get a loan.</p>

6

<p>Cal has such a large population that you can't generalize that they are snobby and pressured. Some may be, many won't. You will find your friends.&lt;/p>

<p>If you are planning on getting a PhD why take on a huge debt load for undergrad?</p>

7

<p>It isn't a tough choice. There is no choice. He can't take on the debt load - no one will loan him $100k. For purposes of this discussion, Brown rejected the OP.</p>

8

<p>I tend to agree with mini, if your parents won't pay for Brown, you don't really have a choice. Berkeley's a great school and in state prices are hard to beat. I think Berkeley will force you to grow up a little faster, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.</p>

9

<p>fwiw, there are plenty of liberals running around Cal, so don't fret finding like-people to hang with. Your parents are correct, Cal has one of the top physical science programs in the country -- at the grad level. You should be aware, however, that there is a built-in UC bias against undergrads staying on for grad school at the same campus. Thus, attending UCLA or UCSD (or Brown) and doing well would be better position you to apply to Cal's grad school then attending Cal undergrad. Or, do well at Cal undergrad and earn a full ride to Cal Tech or MIT for grad school.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

10

<p>There is sometimes such a bias against taking their own students, but it depends on the department; some UC departments do take their own graduates.</p>

11

<p>Of course, all UC grad departments will accept some of their own graduates, but, they won't/can't accept them all!</p>

12

<p>
[quote]
You should be aware, however, that there is a built-in UC bias against undergrads staying on for grad school at the same campus.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I had the impression that this wasn't the case at all, that the bias was much more against doctoral grads becoming professors on the same campus.</p>

13

<p>isnt berkely near the top for physics?</p>

14

<p>
[quote]
Brown seems to be a perfect fit for my personality. I'm rather mild-mannered and am extremely liberal. I love community service, nature, and great in-class discussions with a small group of students who aren't stupid.</p>

<p>However, Berkeley seems to fit more for my aspirations (according to my parents). I plan on getting a Ph.D in physics and what better place to get experience/the facilities than in Berkeley, one of the top notch schools in the sciences?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Brown is an amazing place, and if there is a way to go there for you (though it doesn't seem like there is), I would go there for the simple reason that you are bored of Cali. But this is assuming everything were equal, and unfortunately it's not.</p>

<p>Being bored of Cali and bored of Berkeley are two very, very different things, especially if you are from Southern California. There is a lot you can explore in Berkeley and a lot of liberalism. And there is nature close by that is, all and all, probably nicer than that close to Providence (though that is a taste thing which is why I said probably).</p>

<p>Half of the students at Berkeley more or less will, statistically speaking, be on a direct par with students at Brown, and frankly, if you study physics, I'll think you'll find that major self-selects the brighter people. </p>

<p>I think you've got two great options. Coming out of undergrad $100,000 in debt, if it's even possible to get such a loan, I can't see being worthwhile.</p>

<p>Go to Berkeley. Be a very active consumer not only of the resources the university offers, but also of where you live and what sorts of people you surround yourself with -- and you'll have a great experience.</p>

15

<p>My D has taken physics at Cal and while not a physics major, she really enjoyed the classes and has had good experiences with the profs & GSIs.</p>

<p>I don't see Cal as snobby at all, it has a very down to earth feel and there is no dearth of liberals in Berkeley!</p>

16

<p>My son is taking Physics and Music this semester at Berkeley...how cool is that? (I'm not sure if it is in the Phyics dept or music dept)
His personality sounds very much like you describe yourself. He is loving it at Cal and has found lots of friends that he can relate to.</p>

17

<p>Thank you everyone for the feedback!</p>

<p>I am from Northern California, around the San Jose area. That means that I live pretty much an hour away from Berkeley; it's a bit too close to my home if you know what I mean (no offense to my parents whom I love and respect, but the possibility of seeing them every weekend isn't the greatest feeling).</p>

<p>It's interesting to see the parental side of things; money really does matter ultimately, and yes, I really do NOT want to be $100,000 in debt after school.</p>

<hr>

<p>I am not saying that Berkeley is not liberal; in fact, I know it is one of the most active campuses in the nation. I'm just sick of California in the back of my mind. I am also falling into the stereotype-trap of believing that everyone who attends Berkeley is either a snobby overachiever or some form of slacker.</p>

<p>This is really all hearsay unfortunately. I'm trying my best to get my parents to let me visit Brown over spring break (which for me is April 16-20). I'm already going to visit Cal for sure, so that's that. It's just that I crave the East Coast so much; is there any feasible way for me to go to Brown and find jobs to cut down on the loan size?</p>

<p>Thanks again everyone for the feedback; I truly do appreciate it.</p>

18

<p>How gutsy are you?</p>

<p>There is a way for you to go to Brown but it might involve more elbow grease than you're willing to sacrifice for your undergraduate degree.</p>

<p>First, for a physics degree, you shouldn't borrow more than $30 over four years. Full stop. Even that will be a pinch to pay off in certain months.</p>

<p>That means you have to find a way to come up with $70k.</p>

<p>You can be an RA for two years --that's a savings of $20K. Now you need $50K.</p>

<p>What is the highest paying summer job you can get? xiggi posted something that said Californian kids are earning $15K per summer. Let's say you could do that for four summers. That's $60K.</p>

<p>Or let's say you take a year off between sophomore and junior year and earn $40K--plus the summer earnings of $30K--now you are getting closer.</p>

<p>PM xiggi and ask him what the heck he is talking about--or get on craigslist and see what you could earn this summer.</p>

<p>YOu need to beg borrow and steal your way to ADOCH. I think Brown will meet your expectations but before you sign up to all the toil of earning that money--you'd better make sure you will love it.</p>

<p>Also, comb through both course catalogues and see what courses you can and cannot take. There are no core courses at Brown--a plus--but the Berkeley course offering is likely to be much deeper--esp for junior and senior year when you will be ready to stretch in to grad courses. Find out about availability of classes at UCB though.</p>

<p>Hey--and congrats for putting tow amazing offers on the table for yourself. If you are smart enough and diligent enough to do that--you can probably figure out how to send yourself to Brown.</p>

<p>That's what my gut tells me.</p>

19

<p>
[quote]
I am not saying that Berkeley is not liberal; in fact, I know it is one of the most active campuses in the nation. I'm just sick of California in the back of my mind. I am also falling into the stereotype-trap of believing that everyone who attends Berkeley is either a snobby overachiever or some form of slacker.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Whoa, nellie. If you do go to Berkeley, get your parents used to the fact that you will not see them every weekend. My one problem with Berkeley was yours, and it was my only real problem with Berkeley vs. the school Back East I considered. There was one term when I decided for my own reasons to see my folks every week (usually a weekday dinner). But there were terms when I saw them once or twice, and these happened more often. Set their expectations closer to that, if you can.</p>

<p>If you are sick of California, get out of it if at all possible. Cheers has some great suggestions. I don't know what your parents are like obviously, but if you are asking them to buy off on your plan, I would tighten it up a lot of course. $15K a summer? No freaking way, so far as I can see. That would work out to about $60K a year, and that's tough for a graduate to pull off in most fields. And that doesn't take into account your living expenses during that time.</p>

<p>The other thing you might think about is coming out the other end. If you are seriously in debt, you might really constrain your choices at that point. Let's say you wanted to work as a researcher for a year or two and then go get a PhD. If you took on solely private debt as an undergrad, you wouldn't likely get a grace period and you would have to start paying a lot of money quickly.</p>

<p>But where there is a will there is a way. And as others have said, congratulations for putting two great options on the table.</p>

<p>I dated a woman once who got into Brown and UVA. Her family was so poor, she said, that it was an overbearing hardship just to get to Brown from rural Virginia where she grew up. I am sure you can eke out more means, but she had a great experience at her other choice!</p>

<p>Snobby overacheivers? Slackers? You can find pretty much anything you want at Berkeley. You'll find brilliant, cool people who are neither. Just take a very active role in making sure it happens for you. Berkeley rewards active consumers.</p>

20

<p>Berkeley is one of the major centers of math and physics in the United States and the world. Brown is not; some individual faculty and research areas are strong, but the departments as a whole are not at the rank of UC Berkeley. The math/physics undergrads at Brown are weaker than at Harvard and Princeton, not to mention MIT, while at Berkeley there are peers at whatever level suits you, from high to low. Location and climate are better at UCB as well. </p>

<p>That's before taking the 25k/year debt into account.</p>