<p>
[quote]
People who, rather than simply providing information about the school they know, make assertions that school XXX is far superior to Cornell in every way. Take their assertions with a grain of salt, for they are incorrect and typically only know one of these two schools.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It's fascinating, isn't it?<br>
I could almost guarantee which competitors of Cornell will have discussions that go like such:
"I am sure Cornell is a fine school. What I liked about XXX and why I might recommend it to you in your circumstances would be blah blah blah. But either way, you can't go wrong."
and the discussions that go like such:
"YYY is SO much better than Cornell, in every single way. Their SAT scores are x points higher, they place better into i-banking. Plus, they have better basketball teams. YYY rules and Cornell drools."</p>
<p>It speaks well to the nature of the students at XXX that they are self-confident enough to not have to tear down Cornell in order to explain the things they liked best about XXX. And it speaks poorly to the nature of the students at YYY that they can't possibly simply say that they like certain things about YYY but they feel compelled to tear down Cornell in the interim.</p>
<p>It's so easy to tell which schools fall into XXX territory and which fall into YYY territory. I am far more impressed with students who are able to articulate reasons why they enjoyed their experience, than I am with students who feel compelled to tear down other schools and make it a contest.</p>
<p>By the way. My brother still has UMich (Literature, Science, and the Arts) as an option. He doesn't need to respond to UMich until July 9th. Now that he's deciding, again, on which college to attend. I think he's putting UMich back on the table as well. How does UMich, Cornell CAS, and Brown compare?</p>
<p>In much of the world recognition of colleges has a great deal to do with sports. Does the college have regular games on ESPN international? Yes? Then it's well known. For that reason Cornell will always be better know among the masses than Brown, Williams, Amherst and others considered better schools in elite crowds.</p>
<p>I have never encountered anyone who has real knowledge of ivy league schools who does not think Cornell, because it is the easiest to get into overall, does not hold the bottom rung. Yet these same people will tell you if you want to be an engineer, a hotel executive or run a farming operation, it's the best among the ivies. </p>
<p>Lets get real, there is only a major difference in the quality of these schools to .0000000001% of the worlds population. At the HS I went to, where many people in that group went, Cornell is a free fall from HYPCDB.</p>
<p>Yet the fact is anyone going to Cornell is attending one of the worlds best schools. Can we put this all to rest?</p>
Actually they do. And to counteract your favorite argument, that no one in the professional world actually ranks schools and utilizes that for employment--they do as well. Forget for a second if Brown or Cornell is better to you, just recognize that in the "real world" people do rank schools. I have this first hand from a variety of sources, who all say the same thing (people in various fields law, medicine, and business). </p>
<p>My last question, since you always ask why Cornell is COMMONLY considered the worst Ivy. Why do you think Cornell is just as good as Dartmouth, Brown, Columbia and Penn?</p>
<p>Brown over Cornell anyday, personally. Definitely make sure your brother visits each school. And I agree, Cornell is the worst Ivy, but that is subjective. Brown is more selective, slightly more prestigious, and much, much more fun. By the way, the Cornellians who cite World Rankings are misinformed---those rankings are based on graduate school prestige. Brown has an undergraduate focus (like Dartmouth). Most people would choose Brown over Cornell, but there are always some strange ones that really like Ithaca.</p>
<p>
[quote]
He didn't get into honors. He's in-state though.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, that may help to placate some who choose to disparage UM Honors. What's the financial situation in your family like? If he would need to take $60k+ in loans, neither Cornell or Brown might be the best choice.</p>
<p>I think a lot of individuals fail to realize that Cornell has a very large undergraduate focus as well. More than 3 out of every 4 students not in the professional schools are undergraduates at Cornell. </p>
<p>Personally, I think it comes down to the type of person your brother is. Will he feel more comfortable at a school with large, state-school-esque parties, activities that revolve around campus life, down to earth attitudes, and a fairly strong focus on sports (esp. hockey)? Or will he feel more comfortable at a school with smaller parties and more of an artsy, intellectual flare? Does he want to be surrounded by beautiful scenery or a mid-size city?</p>
<p>I have three lasting impressions about Brown:</p>
<p>One is that all of the students I studied at Oxford with from Brown were great kids -- bright, charming, and very engaged, of the type I surrounded myself with at Cornell. </p>
<p>Two is that at Brown-Cornell hockey games in Providence, Cornell fans outnumbered Brown fans by an easy 3 to 1 margin, and nobody at the Brown game seemed to be wearing Brown jerseys, unlike the Lynah Faithful who pride themselves on wearing game worn jerseys.</p>
<p>Three is that I met a couple of Brown alums in Boston who often remarked that Cornell would have been a better place for their studies. Granted, these were for areas like engineering, nutritional science, and ecology -- areas that Cornell excels at.</p>
<p>Bezcraze, since you have slighted Amherst and its obvious superiority to Hahvahd, I can no longer support you in your vitriolic and nonsensical denunciations of Cornell over superficial matters such as prestige and job placement.</p>
<p>Frankly, if one is unmotivated, unassertive, not confident, and lacking in passion, one is doomed to fail wherever one attends college.</p>
<p>When it comes down to Cornell and Brown, both are great schools, and one won't go wrong choosing one over the other.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Why do you think Cornell is just as good as Dartmouth, Brown, Columbia and Penn?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The thing about these Ivies is that they are all exceptional in different ways. And that is what makes them so hard to compare on any sort of ordinal basis in a way that is generally applicable to your average college applicant.</p>
<p>Take Dartmouth, for example. Can you really compare the undergraduate focus, Greek life, and pure enthusiasm that students have for their "small school" to any of the other Ivies? I personally don't think so. None of the other Ivies features a bunch of crazed kids yelling around a bonfire every October.</p>
<p>Or take Columbia. Can any other school offer the intellectual rigor of the Core Curriculum while being smack dab in the middle of one of the most exciting and dynamic cities in the world? Nope.</p>
<p>Or Brown. No other school is as progressive in allowing students to chart their own intellectual development as Brown is.</p>
<p>Or Penn. It's pre-professional business program is widely considered to the best of the world, to say nothing of its very innovative interdisciplinary programs.</p>
<p>Or even Cornell. No other school offers such a dynamic mix of the theoretical and the applied, the down to earth and the Ivory Tower. It's the only school that can even attempt to be everything to everyone, and routinely be in the top of its class in doing so, from engineering to hotel management, creative writing and philosophy to ecological management and labor relations. And it involves undergraduates in research at exceptional levels.</p>
<p>Plus, Ithaca is amazing. Not only does its natural beauty arguably outshine the locale for all other schools in the country, but it's historically been a hotbed for activism and new social/cultural movements. Silent film industry? That was Ithaca. Vegetarian movement? That was Ithaca. The spiritual home for Buddhism in North America? Ithaca. The new espresso bars that everybody in NYC is talking about? That's Ithaca. </p>
<p>I have never met a graduate of any one of these schools who would disparage any of the other.</p>
<p>I wouldn't ordinarily enter such a vicious dogfight (for those who have read my posts religiously, I have a lot of immediate and extended family members who are Cornell alumni, so I can sometimes sound pretty coherent when I talk about the school and name-drop Clara Dickson, Willard Straight Hall, and the towns like Caroline and Lisle that you pass going on Route 79), but I wanted to say two things. Okay, maybe three.</p>
<p>First off, pizzagirl, thanks for post 61. And I say that knowing that we tend to represent similarly opposite schools, that the articulation of maybe why x or why y is crucial rather than the just blanket and bold assertions that some people tend to make.</p>
<p>Secondly, it's only within the past generation that Cornell has been the "worst ivy." Thirty years ago, Penn was the place that nobody wanted to go to, and Cornell was seen by people who care too much about these things as far superior to Penn. Nowadays, it seems that Cornell gets all the hate. What I think people here don't seem to realize is that the ivy rivalries are playful. My family will go on and on about how terrible Harvard is (Cornell/Harvard hockey rivalry) but obviously they only believe that to a point. In fact, for my family, hockey is the only valid assessment of any school :-P</p>
<p>Thirdly, I have an intense respect and love for Cornell, even though I decided once upon a time it wasn't the best school for me. I like Brown a lot, too. On a micro-level, I wonder how the two schools match up... I mean when you are at Cornell, you feel like the entire universe is made of little 18-22 year-old particles and you are in one of the naturally beautiful areas one can imagine. I've never been to Brown, so I can't really speak about the Brown experience.</p>
<p>I think NewYorka and Bescraze are burdened by high school backgrounds in which the prevailing belief was that Cornell is inherently inferior to the others. It is difficult to shed such indoctrination, especially when comparing a bunch of strangers on a chat board to people they have known and respected their whole lives.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>It is almost impossible to objectively argue that Cornell is the worst Ivy, provides the poorest education, or the fewest career opportunities. Acceptance rates do not make a school bad, or else Univ. of Chicago is WAY overrated. </p></li>
<li><p>One would be very hard pressed to argue that Cornell is universally any less "prestigious" than Brown. In certain circles, people consider Brown better. In other circles, people consider Cornell better. In still other circles, people consider Georgia Tech or USC better than both.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I don't know why people can't just accept that Cornell and Brown both offer the opportunity for incredible educations. The school does not make a person, it only provides a platform. Bottom line: just go wherever feels right or provides the best style of learning for your personality.</p>
<p>Newyorka, you say that Brown is a better school than Cornell and that Cornell is the easiest Ivy to get into, when in fact both statements are false. When you compare apples to apples (i.e. Brown to Cornell CAS), in terms of admissions, Cornell is very similar to other Ivies. But, at the same time, Cornell's other schools are not easier to get in to. They just have different standards. A geeky kid with perfect SAT scores but no experience in the hospitality industry that gets into Harvard has no shot at getting into Cornell's Hotel School.</p>
<p>And I've realized by now that almost everything Bescraze says is absurd and misguided.</p>
<p>Coolman, all I can say is I've lived around ivy talk all my life. I even live in NY. I went to a HS that sends more than 30% to ivies. When many look at the tally from our school they discount Cornell as so many of the bottom of our class gets in applying to the state school part.</p>
<p>In my world, limited as it may be, Cornell is thought to be the weakest ivy, no contest. Most of the top students in my class would not consider applying. Just what I see in my corner.</p>
<p>I'm sorry man, I didn't realize you live in new york and come from such a privileged background. your opinion is right then, just disregard mine</p>
<p>Newyorka - you live in a world that values elitism. Of course Cornell is going to be considered the weakest in your corner of the world. </p>
<p>Cornell's fundamental purpose for existing counters every value that defines your culture. Ol' Uncle Ezra came along to found a school that would provide education to anybody in any field of study - blacks, women, Jews... at a time when only wealthy white men were admitted elsewhere. The only barrier was the ability to handle the academic rigor. </p>
<p>It was radical back then in ways that ruffled the feathers and drew condescension from the big city elitists in the same way it does today. </p>
<p>Perhaps someday the most powerful in our society will evolve. Until then, all we are asking is that you please stop disparaging a school whose fundamental purpose for existing you do not understand, yet fills an incredibly important role in higher education.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Newyorka - you live in a world that values elitism.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Bullocks. That's like me saying that Californians live in a world that values surfboards, beaches, tans, and celebrities.</p>
<p>Unless, of course, he happens to attend Stuyvesant. Then, I agree 100 percent.
Otherwise, outlandish stereotype and overly vicious response. He was merely painting a picture of the attitudes of those who attend his alma mater.</p>
<p>My point in mentioning NY is that I figure Cornell is liked more there than anywhere.</p>
<p>Applejack, I'm at a loss for words. Elitism in America? So shocking!! The irony is that here, more than in any country, education has come to define the elite. In other countries it's still about the family you were born into.</p>