<p>^ Still not getting my point- why would Alexandre for example create a tier which suggests that Brown and dartmouth are stronger schools than Rice when most of Rice departments are on par with Brown and superior to dartmouth? Then switch the metrics when comparing UMich to Rice, and start discussing how the graduate department at Mich are better than Rice (forgetting the fact that Mich’s faculty is several times larger). If you analyze rice carefully on a per capita basis of faculty research putput and not on subjective opinion- most people would be aware that its as top as it gets.</p>
<p>Top LAC’s with strong alumni giving rates(>50%)-Amherst, Williams, Davidson, Holy Cross, Bowdoin , and Colgate are able to offer good financial aid and help in job placement. With weak/poor economy, most public universities face budget cuts.</p>
<p>^ I don’t know. Rice is great…no question. I especially admire its engineering and might personally prefer it over a Dartmouth (never been to either). There are historical and geographical factors in play too…not saying it’s right or wrong, but Texas (particularly Houston) doesn’t get much credit. This is gonna shift the thread into an entirely different discussion as we’re discussing topics debated here continuously:
private vs. public, research university vs. LAC, Ivy vs. non-Ivy, coastal biases, liberal elite bias…etc…</p>
<p>"Moreover, I had one friend who transferred from Brandeis with a 3.7+ college GPA with advanced coursework there who ended up struggling with C/C- level grades and even failing a few courses before floundering to graduation two years behind schedule with barely a 3.0 cumulative GPA from Oberlin. "</p>
<p>Oberlin must be one of the most rigorous schools in the US then lol . . . considering the statistics of the people that get into Oberlin, and from your anecdotes that Harvard was easier, I think its safe to assume that 80% of the students at Oberlin must be failing. Or grew significantly smarter and more hardworking while in college.</p>
<p>Your opinion on UMich being greater than Tufts is because of its graduate departments since there is really no way for you to compare both schools academically. It follows that people’s opinion here that UMich is better than Boston U is based largely on the graduate departments of UMich rather than any real knowledge of what happens at BU. If I was to use the same method of comparison in which you compare Tufts departments to Mich, I should confidently be able to assert that Mich are academically superior to Williams. But you assert the contrary. </p>
<p>Most people here just spew academics but when you ask them to qualify it they start floudering like a fish caught in a hook</p>
<p>"^ I don’t know. Rice is great…no question. I especially admire its engineering and might personally prefer it over a Dartmouth (never been to either). There are historical and geographical factors in play too…not saying it’s right or wrong, but Texas (particularly Houston) doesn’t get much credit. This is gonna shift the thread into an entirely different discussion as we’re discussing topics debated here continuously:
private vs. public, research university vs. LAC, Ivy vs. non-Ivy, coastal biases, liberal elite bias…etc… "</p>
<p>I think its a bit related. If we can all agree that we know nothing about the academics of BU and most of the schools we rank, I think it would give the OP some fresh air. People are working on their perceptions- I personally think for example that all publics are just decent at the undergraduate level (but I am pretty much aware that this perception is based on my bias and anecdotal views)</p>
<p>"
Your opinion on UMich being greater than Tufts is because of its graduate departments since there is really no way for you to compare both schools academically. It follows that people’s opinion here that UMich is better than Boston U is based largely on the graduate departments of UMich rather than any real knowledge of what happens at BU. If I was to use the same method of comparison in which you compare Tufts departments to Mich, I should confidently be able to assert that Mich are academically superior to Williams. But you assert the contrary. "</p>
<p>Obviously, you ignored the part where I said Tufts’ undergrad engineering program cannot hold a candle to UMich’s and their science departments are overwhelmingly geared to pre-meds at the expense of aspiring scientists…a common complaint among friends who were non pre-med science majors at Tufts whereas UMich’s science departments cater to both groups well. UMich also has more strengths across the board in the humanities and social science departments. </p>
<p>As for BU…I am still wondering on what basis you feel BU and UMich are equal academically for undergrad? That’s certainly not the experience of many Boston area locals who considered it a “rich kid’s safety school” for kids who were rejected from Harvard, Tufts, BC, and the seven sisters. In fact, I witnessed one local advising an NEU student who was hoping to transfer up by telling him to not undersell himself by considering BU as it wouldn’t be much of an improvement.</p>
<p>this attempt to separate undergrad from grad is laughable. Once you get into and graduate from Michigan, you are part of the Wolverine family, none of this undergrad, grad like they are separate schools bs.</p>
<p>
They are separate schools. You should be extremely proud of yourself kb10 for going to GRADUATE SCHOOL at Michigan because it is one of the 10 greatest overall graduate schools in the world. </p>
<p>Why would you would want to associate yourself with an undergraduate program that is not even top 25 in the country?</p>
<p>Also, if we were to include graduate schools, something crazy like 1 out of 10 Americans are technically “Michigan alums”. What would be then so special about being part of an alumni network where everyone and their mother is already a part of? What’s the incentive for a Michigan employer to look out for a Wolverine when there are 5 other Michigan grads applying for the same position?</p>
<p>"Also, if we were to include graduate schools, something crazy like 1 out of 10 Americans are technically ‘“Michigan alums”’.</p>
<p>I find that statistic a little hard to believe. Is there a source for that? While I agree that Michigan is a big school, and that it might be getting too overcrowded, I still don’t feel that it’s the diploma-mill factory that many people make it out to be. And rankings are subjective.</p>
<p>As to the original topic of this thread, I can’t really tell you which is a better school. While I personally love UMich and the town of Ann Arbor, Boston is probably even larger and very well might have more to offer as a city. I’ve never been there though, so I can’t really speak from personal experience.</p>
<p>“They are separate schools. You should be extremely proud of yourself kb10 for going to GRADUATE SCHOOL at Michigan because it is one of the 10 greatest overall graduate schools in the world. Why would you would want to associate yourself with an undergraduate program that is not even top 25 in the country?”</p>
<p>No they are not. Michigan is one university and most of its alums do not attempt to differentiate. Michigan’s graduate progams are ranked among the top 10 because there aren’t as many graduate programs as undergraduate programs. Just because one ranking with a methodology that favors smaller private universities does not rank Michigan undergrad among the top 25 does not make it so. There are so many excellent undergraduate programs in the nation that there is no clear cut top 10 or top 25 university. Let us face it, outside of the HYPSM fivesome, there is no real difference between the top 25 or top 30 universities. That is not the case with graduate programs, where there is a clear cut top 10 or top 15.</p>
<p>“Also, if we were to include graduate schools, something crazy like 1 out of 10 Americans are technically “Michigan alums”. What would be then so special about being part of an alumni network where everyone and their mother is already a part of?”</p>
<p>1 in 10 huh? How do you figure? 450,000 living alums (350,000 living in the US) out of a population of 310,000,000. If my math is correct, that’s more like 1 in 700. And if having a large alumni body somehow dilutes the brand of a university, would you say Harvard is not respected? They have 320,000 living alums. Columbia and Penn each have about 300,000 living alums.</p>
<p>“What’s the incentive for a Michigan employer to look out for a Wolverine when there are 5 other Michigan grads applying for the same position?”</p>
<p>As many alums and recent graduates as Michigan may have, their extremely diverse interests generally ensures that not many apply for similar positions. I have not often had to compete with another Wolverine for the same job.</p>
<p>sefago, Tufts is not a similar LAC to Williams. Tufts isn’t even a LAC. Tufts has 9,500 students (over 4,000 of which are graduate students), making it 3 times large than the larger LACs and 4-5 times larger than most LACs. I agree that Tufts is a quasi-LAC, like Vanderbilt or Emory, but it is not a LAC.</p>
<p>And I never said Michigan was superor to Tufts, I said they are not comparable. They are too different.</p>
<p>BU is far stronger than it was in the past. It’s been ramping things up for years and the effect is obvious. Some departments are stronger than others. Classics , math , theater are some of the strongest.
BU is in Boston. There is a lot to do and see. Theater district is small but very strong, and the music scene is excellent. It’s a city full of people who actually read, make music, and art. The BU campus is in the middle of it all and you can walk to Fenway - the best ball park in America. There’s great food , much of cheap too. If you like NE skiing, it’s a day trip.
I don’t know much about Michigan. It’s got a huge campus and lots of sports.</p>
<p>Actually, most have the sentiment that BU has really fallen off since the 90s. The admin has increased the size of the university to the point where there is no campus identity or school spirit, classes are usually lectures style seminars and the degree does not have much cache anymore (likely due to it being considered the go-to safety school due to its easy admissions). The grade deflation issue (google it) is a significant concern for most people I speak with regarding BU, especially if graduate school is something you are interested in.</p>
<p>
Do you think NYU is one the same level as Columbia? Do you think Tufts is on the same level as Caltech? Do you think Wake Forest is on the same level as Penn? Do you think Michigan is on the same level as Dartmouth?</p>
<p>I’ve never really understood the separation you make between HYPSM and the next 25 universities on this site. Duke is a lot closer to Stanford statistically than UNC is to Duke for instance. If you want to be this elitist, then the conversation starts and ends with Harvard. Why include Yale, Princeton, Stanford and MIT in the same class? Harvard has better selectivity, more financial resources, a higher endowment, significantly more fellowship winners (Rhodes, Marshall, Truman, etc.), better faculty, etc. etc.</p>
<p>Here is the list that was agreed upon by all my college friends who are scattered across various top universities in the US:</p>
<p>Tier 1
Harvard</p>
<p>Tier 2
Yale
Princeton
Stanford
MIT
Caltech</p>
<p>Tier 3
Brown
Duke
Dartmouth
Chicago
Penn
Columbia</p>
<p>Tier 4
Cornell
Georgetown
Northwestern
JHU
Emory
Vanderbilt
Wash U
Rice
Notre Dame</p>
<p>Tier 5
UNC
Michigan
Berkeley
UCLA
UVA
USC
Wake Forest
Tufts
CMU</p>
<p>Either admit that all top schools are virtually the same or separate universities more vigorously like in the manner I prescribed with the above example Alexandre. No one in the professional or academic world agrees with your HYPSM and then “the rest” arbitrary tiering system.</p>
<p>Yes, Michigan is at the same level as Dartmouth, albeit in a very different way. Your tiers are completely inconsistant. Cal, Cornell, JHU, Michigan and Northwestern are in the same league as your tier 3 schools. Furthermore, the remaining tier 4 and tier 5 schools can all be lumped together into one tier.</p>
<p>Lesdiablesbleu, you should learn about universities before you post such incorrect information. I have 15 years more experience than you (and far more knowledge about universities than you do) and I hesitate to state my opinion half as freely as you do.</p>
<p>Alexandre,</p>
<p>What does experience have to do with anything? If a 50 year-old Nobel Prize winner were to suggest to me that he thinks Wash U is better than Harvard, then I would still think that he’s wrong. This isn’t theory or speculation; my ranking systems are based on perceptions of prestige that are corroborated my plenty of data and statistics.</p>
<p>Dartmouth has a better professional and academic reputation than Michigan. This isn’t a matter that is debatable. Top firms in virtually every industry like The Parthenon Group (management consulting), Abercrombie & Fitch (retail), the Gehrson Lehman Group (expertise) and SIG Susquehanna (proprietary trading) recruit at Dartmouth while they don’t recruit at Michigan.</p>
<p>Name one TOP COMPANY that recruits at Michigan but doesn’t go to Dartmouth. I doubt you could find one.</p>
<p>[SIG</a> Susquehanna :: Campus Events](<a href=“http://www.sig.com/campusevents.asp]SIG”>404)
[The</a> Parthenon Group - Careers - Calendar / Events](<a href=“http://www.parthenon.com/Undergraduate/CalendarEvents]The”>http://www.parthenon.com/Undergraduate/CalendarEvents)</p>
<p>A key question: what are you likely to learn in a UMich classroom that you couldn’t learn in a BU classroom? I’d guess the answer is not much. Keep in mind that for many academics, the Boston area a great place to be; the idea that Michigan’s faculty is superior in any way that would significantly impact an undergrad is putting way too much faith in rankings.</p>
<p>@Alexandre</p>
<p>I know its rude to interrupt posts so I would first apologize then:</p>
<p>I think lesdiablesbleus is talking about undergraduate education especially as seen by most people in college right now. Michigan is not even close to Dartmouth in terms of reputation. Do not quote the academic scores of USNWR because the graduate schools cause a bias in the results. Dartmouth is at least a tier more solid than at the undergraduate level than UMich. Alexandre, i think no matter how you rank on CC, thats never going to change the actual perception. Also no offence, I find it hard to believe you know what is currently happening in undergraduate college in the US right now since you are currently in Dubai. Most of your knowledge would be based on online analysis, meeting and discussing with past alumnis from those school at best. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Alexandre, you have been posting your tier system consistently and I doubt people have argued that you have posted incorrect information. Most have said you post biased information which might be true. Lesdiablesbleus ranking reflects a Northeast bias though- I would bet he is from the Northeast. I dont know if it is right and neither do i care.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, I dont think you would know about a university just based on observation and researching. You need information from people who have experienced the education of the school. Lesdiablesbleu’s tiering reflects how schools are currently viewed by students now in the school. These students are even more likely to judge a school than the academics who really have not being in the undergraduate system for more than 15 years. </p>
<p>
[quote]
And I never said Michigan was superor to Tufts, I said they are not comparable. They are too different.
[quote]
</p>
<p>Even further you claim that Mich is comparable to Dartmouth but not Tufts. The undergraduate education at Michigan is not in the i same league as Michigan. At the graduate level and on a departmental basis Michigan is better than Dartmouth in nearly every department. So in what way are they comparable exactly?</p>
<p>Oh I forgot, Dartmouth is ivy league and a top 10-12 university at the undergraduate level so it would be great to link Michigan to it. But Tufts, a university quite organized like a liberal art college just like dartmouth but not that highly ranked is “too different.” Just looking at the student size at Tufts does not tell you that. Interacting with Tufts student does. Tufts is very much a liberal art school- it has around 5000+ undergrads. </p>
<p>@lesdiableus</p>
<p>
[quote]
Name one TOP COMPANY that recruits at Michigan but doesn’t go to Dartmouth. I doubt you could find one.
[quote]
</p>
<p>Lots of top engineering and tech companies would be recruiting at Michigan and would not bother going to Dartmouth</p>
<p>
I can name about (and at least) 200… </p>
<p>Dartmouth Engineering Job Fair (today):
Allegro Microsystems
Analog Devices
Arcadia Solutions
Azure Dynamics
BAE Systems
Bechtel
Corning Incorporated
Creare
DC Energy
GE Aviation
General Mills
Geosyntec Consultants
Goldman Sachs
Microsoft Corporation
Mobile Medical International Corporation
M2S
MC10, Inc.
NING
The Noribachi Group, LLC
Oliver Wyman
Oracle
Parsons Brinckerhoff
Pegasystems, Inc.
Physical Sciences, Inc.
Putnam Investments
Resource Systems Group
Ruger
Savin Engineers
ShelterLogic
Siemens
Sky Research
Stonyfield Farms
SustainX, Inc.
The Mathworks
Thermadyne
TIAX, LLC
Trinity Partners
U.S. Army CRREL
U.S. Marine Corps Officer Program
U.S. National Security Agency
US Navy Officer Programs
Veson Nautical
Vestmark, Inc.
VistaPrint
Warner Power
Weidmann Electrical Technology
Wolf Greenfield3M Company</p>
<p>University of Michigan Engineering Job Fair (last week or the week before):
3M Company
Abbott
Accenture
Amazon
American Axle and Manufacturing
Amway
Analog Devices
Andreessen Horowitz
Apple Inc.
Applied Value LLC
APT
ArcelorMittal
Ball Aerospace & Technologies Corp.
Barclays Capital
Barr Engineering
Bechtel Corporation
Belcan Advanced Engineering and Technology
Bloomberg
BP
Capital One
CDM
Central Intelligence Agency
Chevron
Chicago Trading Company
Cirrus Logic Inc
Clarkston Consulting
Commonwealth Associates, Inc.
ConocoPhillips
Consumers Energy
Continental
Cook Nuclear Plant - AEP
Cummins, Inc.
Defense Nuclear Facilitie Safety Board
Deloitte Consulting
Delta Dental
Diamond Management & Technology Consultants
Dow Chemical
DRW Trading Group
DTE Energy
Duncan Aviation
Dwyer Instruments, Inc.
Eaton Corporation
Eli Lilly and Company
Exponent, Inc.
Facebook
FactSet Research Systems Inc,
Federal-Mogul Corporation
FEV, Inc.
FirstEnergy Corp
Ford Motor Company
Freudenberg-NOK
General Dynamics Electric Boat
General Electric
General Mills
Gerdau MACSTEEL
Harris Corporation
Hewlett Packard
Intel Corporation
Intrepid Control Systems, Inc
John Deere
Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Lab
KLA-Tencor
L-3 Communications/CSW
LeanLogistics
L’Oreal USA
Manhattan Associates
Marathon Oil Company
Maxim Integrated Products
Mayo Clinic
Medtronic
Merck & Co., Inc.
Michelin North America
MIT Lincoln Laboratory
Mobiata
Molex, Incorporated
MyTernNow/PriorityOne
National Air and Space Intelligence Center
National Instruments
Naval Research Laboratory
Navistar Inc
New World Systems
Nicholson Construction Company
Norfolk Naval Shipyard
Northrop Grumman Corporation
Novelis
NVIDIA
Optiver US LLC
Orbital Sciences Corporation
P3 North America, Inc.
Perrigo Company
Plastipak Packaging Inc.
PPG Industries, Inc.
Procter & Gamble
Procter and Gamble Manufacturing
Raytheon Company
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
Riverbed Technology
Rockwell Automation
Rogers Corporation
Rosetta
Sargent & Lundy
Schlumberger
Shell Oil Company
SpaceX
Spot Trading LLC
Tefen
Texas Instruments
The MathWorks
The Timken Company
The United States Postal Service
Thomson Reuters
Trading Technologies
U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission
Unilever PLC
Urban Science
URS Corporation
Verizon Wireless
VMware
Weather Underground, Inc
Whirlpool
Wolverine Trading, LLC
X by 2
Yahoo!
ZS Associates
Abercrombie & Fitch
Air Force Flight Test Center
Air Liquide USA
Air Products and Chemicals Inc.
Alcoa Howmet
Allston Trading
AMD
American Express
Andersen Windows & Doors
Aprimo
Arbor Networks
Atlas Oil Company
Bain & Company
Baker Hughes
Baxter Healthcare
Bazaarvoice
Bechtel Marine Propulsion Corporation
Bechtel Plant Machinery, Inc.
Bosch
Cameron Health, Inc.
Campbell Soup
CarMax
Caterpillar Inc
Chrysler Group LLC
Cisco
Citrix Consulting
Cognizant Technology Solutions
CONTAX Inc.
Covenant Eyes
Cybernet Systems Corporation
DC Energy
DCS Corp
Dow Corning Corporation
Enablon
Environ International Corp.
Epic
ExxonMobil
Freddie Mac
General Dynamics Advanced Information Systems
General Dynamics Bath Iron Works
GENERAL DYNAMICS NASSCO
General Motors
Gentex Corporation
Gibbs & Cox
GKN Sinter Metals
Google
Greenline Financial Technologies
Gulfstream Aerospace
Halliburton
IBM
Idaho National Laboratory
Infosys Technologies Limited
ITT, Geospatial Systems
Johnson and Johnson
kCura Corporation
Keithley Instruments, Inc.
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
Lockheed Martin
Lutron Electronics Co., Inc.
Mentor Graphics
Microsoft Corporation
Miracle Software Systems,Inc
NASA Johnson Space Center
NASA/Marshall Space Flight Center
National Renewable Energy Laboratory
National Security Agency
NAVAIR
NAVAL SURFACE WARFARE CENTER PANAMA CITY
Nexteer Automotive
Nico Trading
Novellus Systems, Inc.
O-I
Orbitz Worldwide
Owens Corning
Performance Software Corp
Puget Sound Naval Shipyard
Pyramid Solutions, Inc
Quantum Signal LLC
Rockwell Collins
Rolls-Royce
Sapient
Schaeffler Group
Scio Security, Inc.
Simplex Investments
SME (Soil and Materials Engineers, Inc.)
Southwest Research Institute
Space System Loral
SPX
Strategic Weapons Facility Pacific
Stryker
SunChemical
T. Rowe Price
Technip USA, Inc
TechSmith Corporation
Tennessee Valley Authority
The Boeing Company
The Christman Company
The Walsh Group
Third Wave Systems
ThoughtWorks
Toyota Motor Engineering and Manufacturing of North America
Union Pacific Railroad
United States Navy Reserves
Urbancode Software Development, Inc.
US Department of State/ Diplomatic Security
US Environmental Protection Agency
ViaSat, Inc.
Visteon Corporation
Walmart Stores, Inc. - Information Systems Division
Westinghouse Electric Company
Workforce Software</p>
<p>Sefago, if you re-read the first line of post #95, I clearly state that Michigan is very different from Dartmouth. And why are you so defensive about Tufts? I also said Tufts was excellent. </p>
<p>At any rate, when I say Michigan (and Cal, Cornell, JHU and Northwestern) is as good as Dartmouth (or Brown, Chicago, Duke or Penn), I am also referring purely to undergraduate education. At the graduate level, Michigan would rank between #4 and #8 in the US and is superior to half of the schools that lesdiablesbleus placed in thier 3. That does not mean that those schools are all interchangeable, and I admit as much. If you want to compare universities according to likeness and not quality, Michigan’s peers are Cal, Cornell, Northwestern, Penn, UCLA, UNC, UT-Austin and Wisconsin. Michigan shares some similarities with Chicago, Columbia, Harvard, MIT and Stanford. Michigan has virtually nothing in common with Brown, Dartmouth, Duke, Princeton and Yale.</p>
<p>No offense Sefago, but anybody who does not count Michigan among the top universities in the nation is ignorant. There is no clear cut top 10 or top 25 university, but no educated person with true experience would claim that a school like Dartmouth is superior to Michigan. And this is not a recent development either. Michigan was considered among the academic elite (arguably among the top 5 universities in the US) in the late 19th century.</p>
<p>Lesdiablesbleus, I will not compare on-campus recruitment at Michigan to on-campus recruitment at Dartmouth…for the sake of the latter, not the former. Dartmouth would find itself on the losing end of that battle. Suffice it to say, virtually every single BB IBank and Management Consulting lists Michigan among their very short list of strategic campuses and recruit Michigan students very aggressively. Smaller and highly exclusive boutiques, like Allen & Company, BlackRock, Blackstone, Evercore, Greenhill, Lazard and Moelis also recruit at Michigan. </p>
<p>I am sure there are a couple of major financial and consulting firms that recruit at Dartmouth and not at Michigan, but I am just as sure that there are a couple such firms that recruit at Michigan and not at Dartmouth. But when you get past those two industries, the number of major firms that recruit at Michigan far exceeds the number of major firms that recruit at Dartmouth.</p>