Busting The Myth That Fine-Arts Degrees Lead To The Poorhouse

College Majors Music Major
41

<p>gr33-</p>

<p>While I can argue the value or non of a college education, your post misses the reality of what goes on in the world. It is great to claim that you don’t need college, that you can go out and do wonderful things without it, by learning software and such, what that leaves out is that without that college degree a lot of employers are going to chuck your resume in the circular file, prob won’t even hit the hiring manager.</p>

<p>As far as fine arts go, it all depends. Sorry, but if you are talking classical music, dance, drama, writing and so forth, the ‘self taught’ artist is less and less of a reality, and that is especially true in classical music and to a large extent, Jazz. The competition is too fierce and the skill set is too large for someone to do that, even kids coming out of top pre college programs need a lot of work, it is the nature of the beast. With writers, it depends on what kind of writer you wish to be, if you want to be a person writing popular books you don’t necessarily need to go to college for it, but even there the background is huge, because despite the self publish and so forth revolution with e-books, kids going to college for writing among other things network and gain contacts and such.</p>

<p>In reality, for many jobs college and now grad school is a requirement, again because the competition is fierce, and that ‘self made’ engineer or programmer or whatever is becoming a thing of the past. Among other things, internationalization (ie outsourcing jobs to people coming out of countries like India and China that cannot create enough jobs for white collar level students) has raised the minimum standards. Sure, Sean Parker (founder of Napster, a major adviser to Zuckerberg with facebook), never got a college degree,and is now a partner in a major venture capital firm, but that took him being an entrepeneur in a world that didn’t require that kind of background; today, he likely would be told to pound sand by VC firms and such if he tried doing what he did then. </p>

<p>There are always exceptions, the head of a company I worked for talked his way into Yale law school without a college degree, but that not only was an outlier, I suspect these days would not happen…</p>

<p>I agree with others, in my experience the kids seriously heading into music tend to be really bright and many of them were academic achievers and such as well (though I will add that at least in my experience, a lot of the top music students in high school slow down with the academic insanity to concentrate on music, there is a tradeoff there; the kids who concentrated on academics at the pre college program my son went to had their playing ability slow down in terms of growth if not stall, because the time spent on all the AP’s and such took away from practicing…). Plus I have heard the stuff they study as part of music degrees as being ‘irrelevant’, but I would argue that music theory, music history and other classes are probably more rigorous than most GE classes, least the ones I took and most kids seem to, so it isn’t like they don’t have to learn…and talk about deadlines? Music students often have to prepare, for example, a movement of a concerto within a week (memorized), or have orchestra or ensembles where they are playing a concert a couple of weeks in the future, so are juggling a load of competing priorities, much more so than I experienced in college to be honest. </p>

<p>Stacjip hit the nail on the head, many of the people saying you don’t need college, how all that training doesn’t matter, because “X did this” right out of high school, it is like the story of one of my S’s former teachers, who wasn’t serious on violin in high school, still got into a top conservatory, and then walked into a job with a pretty high level orchestra right out of college…try that today and you prob would be able to get into a third tier program at best and would be highly unlikely to have an easy time trying to audition for a competitive full time orchestra, and this is within the span of roughly 30 years…</p>

42

<p>gr33–my oldest daughter actually did skip college, but she studied classical art intensely for five years at an atelier, drawing and painting 12 hours a day. No GE classes, and she is a very successful painter. She does use the internet to market herself, and taught herself. But for her, it did not make sense to go to college, because colleges do not teach classical realistic art intensely.</p>

<p>Our youngest daughter is a freshman music conservatory student. It makes great sense for her to attend college, because that is where classical musicians today learn their trade.</p>

<p>I don’t think we can make a blanket statement about how and where to study art and music. It does depend on what the student’s focus is.</p>

43

<p>“Do what you love, the money will follow”
is about the worst advice I’ve ever heard.</p>

44

<p>knightofcomus,
You are right that advice is rather annoying. Instead the phrase all young people should hear is that “money does not necessarily result in happiness.” I know many miserable unhappy confused middle age (50 something) adults who are wealthy. But at a certain point in your life all those material things that you think would make these people happy, such as a nice house, fancy car, fancy meals and expensive experiences doesn’t solve the human need to be engaged and doing something meaningful. And wealth is a funny thing because once you have some wealth you always seem to want more. There is no end to the greedy gimmes. </p>

<p>On the other hand if you do what you love and have passion you will likely find a way to make a living. You might not become wealthy but you will be able to support yourself. And because you have something that you care about those material things will not be as important or feature so prominently in your life. And because you enjoy your work you will likely be a more pleasant spouse and parent, which in turn will add to how happy you are overall with your life. And you will have a community that is bound by more than just who has a fancier yacht.</p>

45

<p>@stacjip-</p>

<p>Well said, I couldn’t agree more.</p>

<p>@knightofcomus-</p>

<p>Part of the problem is that statement has been corrupted, I believe the original line was more like “do what you love, have a passion for, and riches will follow”. The problem with that statement is that it assumes riches=money (there is a certain theology in Christianity that is promoting just that idea, which is bizarre to me). Riches encompass a lot of things, and it certainly isn’t just money (and I doubt very much in the Bible where it talks about riches it is talking having an Amex black card and a mansion und a yacht). </p>

<p>I can tell you that those who go into a field because they think it is safe or economically stable but otherwise don’t really care about it, it is just a job, rarely do all that well, they might have a comfortable, middle class life, but it is also those people who end up getting laid off when cutbacks happen. In any field, the ones who do really well are those with a passion for it, who like it and it drives them, those serving time are often the drones they make fun of on shows like “The office”, and can find themselves down the road unhappy and not going anywhere.</p>

<p>No, it doesn’t mean if someone has passion for music, that they will ‘make it’ as a professional musician or whatever, but having had that passion, it often translates into passion for other things, or having music in their lives, even part time, can drive them to do well with other things, there is an orchestra here in NYC that is full of doctors and lawyers who play music, and most of them are pretty successful people. </p>

<p>And as I wrote in a prior post, someone willing to take a shot at music, knowing how hard it is, willing to do something because they have a passion for it, is likely to be the kind of people willing to take the kind of risks it takes to succeed, to find something that they can make a living at and love, if music doesn’t work out, whereas the person who for example, goes into IT because it is ‘safe’, can end up either being a drone or having their job sent to India or China because they never got much beyond it being a job they did, and therefore made themselves not valuable enough to keep…if you have ordinary skills doing an ordinary job because you never had the passion to try new things, take a leap at something new, you may not end up very successful either, and possibly miserable to boot, too.</p>

46

<p>Whatever your major, having a Bachelor’s degree will give you a leg up over not having a four-year degree and renders you eligible for jobs that require a BA at a minimum. I have a fine arts (painting) degree and have never been unemployed for more than a few months. I went on to get a Masters in Museum Studies. However, I am glad my son is pursuing a Computer Science degree instead as his starting salary is likely to be much higher than my current salary.</p>

47

<p>This is a great thread. DS2 is a music major in college and DS3 is a HS junior who wants to be a music major. I have gone through all the mental tribulations that come with having children taking this path. But I have come to terms with it for several reasons. If they are going to try and make this their life, they should do it now while they are young and have no responsibilities. Later in life they will not have that luxury. And I understand what has been said about “why bother with a college degree” but times are different now. Firstly I think all young people should get to experience college life. It was certainly the best days of my life. It’s a great buffer between the safety of home and the big wide world out there. They will be with other young people sharing their interests and those who have great experience who can mentor and guide them. And although you could go out and gig now, the contacts and connections they make in their trade through college will be invaluable later. And it gives them the chance to see if that really IS what they want to do. Life is a marathon not a sprint and the path of getting “there” (wherever “there” is!!) is part of the process. It’s great to hear that they can “make it” but if they don’t, either by choice or circumstance, what a great 4 years of life experience they have had. Confidence, connections, life lessons…college is so much more than the degree on paper. And I think that being in the “fine arts” crowd is much more fulfilling than the academic crowd (and I was a medicine major so I can say that!)
And my kids know that they had/have to have scholarships for any major they so in college. I have been lucky that between my kids talents, and a ton of research by me, their cost will not be great. I have the confidence that my kids will be successful in life, be it playing music for the rest of their life or changing tack and working in another field.
And I agree with bookmouse, a bachelors degree is so important. I have colleagues who are doctors, vets and lawyers who were all music majors as undergraduates. For our kids in this rapidly changing world we live in, the world is their oyster and a fine arts degree can be the road to a performing career or merely part of the journey to something else. But what a GREAT journey!</p>

48

<p>I agree totally, saxmom, though in classical music it is pretty much impossible with some rare exceptions to get gigs or whatever out of high school:). One point I didn’t touch on, while most schools these days are pretty diverse, with having their share of international students, music has been and is very, very global, and working with and being with kids from around the world is a pretty big deal and is a life lesson I think. Obviously, many academic schools are very globalized, draw people from all over, but with music it seems like it is the nature of it these days.</p>

49

<p>Yes musicprnt…no gigs for classical. Should’ve thought of that as DS2 is the rare bird…a classical sax :)</p>

50

<p>Saxmom: Yeah, classical sax is a rare thing (why, I don’t know, the soprano sax expecially is an incredible instrument, saw branford marsalis perform a sax concerto…amazing). When my S was in a youth symphony program, they performed “pictures at an exhibition” that has a section with a strong sax solo, and they ‘borrowed’ a kid from the associated jazz program :)</p>

51

<p>This is a wonderful thread. We’ve always said, "it’s tough out there for everyone. Study what you like (in our DC’s case, music and languages), and see what happens. There are so many things an artist can do with his or her life after college/conservatory. The joy in delving deeply, daily immersed in one’s music or art may come for some only during the college years, while for others it may become a career. But if they never try, how will they ever know?</p>

52

<p>Thought people might be interested in this passage from a European conservatory:</p>

<p>The Master student is being trained in a society that is rapidly changing. Social trends are having a major impact on the role and position of the performing arts, including those of the musician. Musicians can no longer take it for granted that they will secure a permanent job in the traditional sectors (such as professional orchestras and schools of music). Nowadays, they are more likely to have a ‘portfolio’ career constituting a series of engagements for specific projects and in specialist ensembles.</p>

<p>A changing world is above all a challenging world. It is a world that offers new opportunities and possibilities, new venues at alternative locations and different styles of working, education and knowledge transfer. It is no longer a question of finding your own way as a musician, but of working in groups and in association with others, sometimes with collaborators in other disciplines. In this challenging environment, a Master student must be self-directive, curious and inquisitive, a team player and aware of the value of a vital music practice and of his or her own chances to further develop that practice.</p>

53

<p>Here is the reality: those artists truly pursuing direct work in their chosen activity will tend to have a tough time. Unless they hit those sweet notes, it often means pounding the streets constantly to pursue opportunities through auditions, dropping jobs for opportunities in hopes that a specific opportunity is a step up. Even a success can be short lived. </p>

<p>Most of my performing arts son’s peers have had to “settle”. They could not put all or even most of their energies into looking for opportunies to perform and performing There came a point when they had to meet the rent and other expenses themselves and getting that paycheck took precedence. My son is at these crossroads right now and it’s a bitter, bitter pill to swallow. He’s in better position than a lot of his peers in that he has no student loans, is very familiar with the locale and has connections, friends there, and has some family support (us) nearby. He’d have bitten the dust a long time ago and had to have gotten steady work doing other things if that were not the case. He’s been just successful enough to hang in there, and I’m not so sure it’s such a good thing I would be thrilled if got a job in something else that had some upward prospects. His close friends, his SO, his roommates all are in such positions now Most in the field, in some way or other, but not in actual performance, which is what my son wants do do more than anything else in the world. He has a lot of opportunities, but they simply too often do not pay enough and he has to meet living expenses. That is the reality. His friends that are making $50-60K a year in related jobs are considered successes by definition of the article, but that really is not what they wanted to be doing They took those jobs and career paths because they could not get what they truly wanted and trained for in the time they had to do it and the reality of money came into play. They failed in what they truly wanted, and they’ll tell you that outright. Oh, yes, they’ll likely do fine in terms of jobs and career, but they wanted to act, sing, dance, perform, not work the back offices for those who do. Now some truly made that transition because they found a handle and interest in things, and find it more satisfying–in producing, managing, PR, event planning, accounting, writing. But most of them would trade those jobs in a flash for a “in the spot light” career performing that could pay their costs That is a very tough go. </p>

54

<p>The above text wasn’t an article but a blurb in a student handbook. It appears that many of the conservatories are articulating similar changes in the music field and attempting to add classes (many of them no doubt ineffective) on entrepreneurial studies etc. I can see this as an effort to catch up to the reality posed by so many music graduates and so many obstacles to supporting oneself in music (or other arts). But not necessarily addressing it in an effective way. Time will tell.</p>

<p>The blurb is from a European conservatory and there is a lot more support/funding for the arts than here.</p>

<p>I have one daughter who is a dancer who has already given up, for the most part, and basically pays to dance in a small company, fairly infrequently, while she waitresses and trains for other work. I have another daughter who is a composer, who just graduated, and is now figuring out that unless she can stay in a funded grad program for years, that it will be hard to have the time to write music and work enough to eat. She has not given up as yet but I am helping her financially, which will be tough for the longer term. She is already working p/t on the administrative side (local orchestra) and hates it, but sees that she may need to do that for money.</p>

<p>In our area, none of the musicians we know play steadily in one orchestra, for instance, but move around and play for chamber orchestras and ensembles. The same names crop up in many different concert programs. I have no idea if they are making it this way or not.</p>

<p>I totally hear you.</p>

55

People often ask me, ‘How will you earn your living?’. I say, I don’t ‘earn’ my life, and since I was born in this world, I have been given the gift of life.

56

I’m a writer, with a son who is now a college junior studying jazz. I wrote and posted this the other day. Thought it made sense here as I was reading. Your passion matters :slight_smile:

http://justponderin.com/2015/01/09/on-a-quiet-word-to-music-parents-shhh-dont-tell/

(I’ll check to see if the link works. I can always cut and paste)

57

This is so good I started reading everything you’ve ever written. I’m a fan

58

Me, too! This is fan-effing-tastic.

59

@mommabass I definitely enjoyed your post. Thank you.

60

I really liked the piece! Your writing is engaging and dynamic, and it really pulled me in.

I’m sad, though, that supporting a child’s choice of following their passion for music seems to necessitate criticizing another child’s passion for philosophy and Canadian studies.