Juilliard

[Mystery99]

<p>I have been following this forum closely but have never posted on it. You all seem like wonderful parents who care about your kids enormously. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, and this goes against anything you probably ever tried to instill in your children, but, getting into a place like Juilliard is not a meritocracy. </p>

<p>The school has been ruined by corrupt politicians on the faculty and administration in the last 10-20 or so years. The school's PR machine makes you believe it is the place to be, when in actuality schools like Indiana University, Curtis, Oberlin, USC, NEC, and (maybe) CIM have produced more professional soloists, orchestra musicians, and chamber musicians in the last decade.</p>

<p>I think people often believe the fallacy that a low admittance rate = better.</p>

<p>Talent is not the only component in being admitted to Juilliard. Political connections, your wealth (or lack thereof), your ethnicity, and (in the case of certain teachers) your sex are a factor in who is admitted.</p>

<p>I personally know a winner of a top international violin competition (we’re talking Paganini, Brussels, Tchaikovsky, Sibelius – one of those), who was rejected by Juilliard because the chair of the ‘Audition Committee’ at the time saw to it that the violinist did not get in, due to the fact that the 'Chair' had a falling out with this person’s teacher.</p>

<p>I’ll give you an example of someone who got into Juilliard with a full scholarship. After reviewing this video, ask yourselves if this guy really is the best of the best in the world (like Juilliard claims its student body is).</p>

<p>Here is another video excerpt of a member of the Juilliard violin faculty performing. Remember this guy judges your children, yet would a player of this level be accepted if he auditioned with basic intonation problems and technique issues? </p>

<p>Now I do not mean to attack these people’s performances, but, I believe when you put your performances up on the web, they’re fair game. Since we are on the subject of admissions, and since it is supposed to be a competitive admissions and audition process, I think it is appropriate to compare different musical performances to see how you match up in order to give yourself an idea. </p>

<p>I know children of people who applied to Juilliard this year that play heads and shoulders above the two video examples (I provided) that were not accepted. To those people, do not question your abilities, because, it doesn’t appear to the trained ear that one’s playing ability is the only essential element in being admitted. The audition process some say is allegedly rigged (or pre-determined) at Juilliard and unlike an orchestral audition (which is a competitive audition behind a screen – based mostly on playing level), this one is not.</p>

<p>I do hope I opened up your eyes (and maybe ears) to what goes on at 60 Lincoln Center Plaza.</p>

[mamenyu]

<p>y’know, I’m not sure this is all true…in my own experience, my kid was admitted without any connections, no Juilliard prep… there were no politics involved. So this is one anecdotal counter to your argument. (I have no stake in this…my kid went to Oberlin.)</p>

[speihei]

<p>Taking the above at face value, what that causes me to believe is that admission process here is similar to the process everywhere; a certain number of seats are reserved for (insert protected class here) and the remainder are offered on the basis of merit. In a subjective area like music, this can be the source of much frustration but it is a reality that doesn’t stop after graduation and throughout one’s career. Do I doubt for a second that personalities are involved? Not for a second. But in that regard, I believe the school in question here is just like everywhere else: not better, not worse, not different.</p>

[violadad]

<p>Those that are astute know that world of music admissions is not perfect, never has been and probably never will be. Nor is the process of taking professional auditions. Long been a truism that you may well encounter noted teacher A who will not take you if you happen to have been a student of teacher B, or F.</p>

<p>There are programs, or persons within those programs, or specific faculty (across a number of instruments) that may well have their own interests at heart. Same holds true just about anywhere, in any profession.</p>

<p>Some stories are based on truth, some on semi-truths, and some on hearsay.</p>

<p>While I do not necessarily agree with the OP’s premise of what appears to be airing dirty personal laundry in a public forum, I recognize that the underlying message is important.</p>

<p>My thought is that these factors constitute part of due diligence in researching any program (or employment).</p>

<p>My kid did not attend the named institution either, but his choice not to apply was not predicated by the premise put forth by the OP.</p>

<p>And again, just my $.02</p>

[stradmom]

<p>I’m shocked, shocked, to learn that other factors besides my little snickerdoodle’s innate worldclass sparkly talent (inherited from me, of course) might be involved in the college admissions process, especially in a field so objectively judged as musical interpretation.</p>

[Mystery99]

<p>Thank you all for the comments.</p>

<p>Can you tell me ‘Scipio’ why my Youtube links were taken down? They supported my argument. Sure speihei I agree that music is subjective, but when you listen to the two Youtube performances I provided … When people who win major international competitions are turned away by Juilliard, and people like this are accepted and a part of the faculty it makes Juilliiard a mediocre at best program (which it is).</p>

[musicamusica]

<p>[College</a> Confidential - FAQ: College Discussion - TOS & FAQ](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_new_faq_item]College”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_new_faq_item)</p>

[Allmusic]

<p>The full scholarship student, of whom you speak, graduated in 2003 and went on to get a masters in music from Yale. I listened to some of his recent recordings, which are in the jazz genre, and they are superb.</p>

<p>Sometimes when I read posts like these, they sound very much like sour grapes, and as if the poster has an axe to grind with someone.</p>

<p>No one has ever said the music world was fair, or that some people didn’t use connections, etc. Many kids with innate talent had no one to help them nurture it, or lacked the money and resources. Some got further because of more opportunities, more connections, more money. So, life isn’t exactly fair. </p>

<p>While I cannot judge violin with a good critical ear, as it isn’t an instrument of our family, I see no reason to badmouth a graduate of seven years ago, who has gone on to have a successful professional career.</p>

[violadad]

<p>Mystery99, if you take a moment to read the site’s TOS, you’ll also see that discussion of moderator actions within the “open” part of this forum are also not allowed.</p>

<p>Questions pertaining to same should be addressed to the moderator via a private message or email utilizing the forum’s features.</p>

<p>This is offered as an explanation to a newbie, nothing more.</p>

[mamenyu]

<p>some great music teachers are not (or no longer) great performers. And you don’t really know what went on behind the scenes, or how the actual audition went, how the applicant presented himself/herself. It’s very hard to gauge. There is certainly a good deal of subjectivity involved, but there are many very talented applicants and something you don’t know about may have been the final dispositive factor.<br>
On the other hand, though my kid’s teacher was dismayed that Juilliard was not the final choice (saying it was “a diamond on your forehead” forever, etc., etc.), I am not convinced that going there as opposed to somewhere else is going to make for a successful future as a performer. Whether or not politics is sometimes at play in Juilliard admissions (or at least maneuvering by some of the faculty for one reason or another), there is certainly a lot of politics behind real-world success in many cases - influential parents, a “story” that sells (like being a “prodigy”), an unusual charisma, entrepreneurial skill, connecting with other performers at summer festivals (which can be quite subjective and even political in selecting students, particularly some of the top ones, like Verbier). That old NYT article about where Juilliard students are 20 years later was very revealing…most are not out there performing for a living. It’s a tough market out there.</p>

[Mystery99]

<p>“The full scholarship student, of whom you speak, graduated in 2003 and went on to get a masters in music from Yale. I listened to some of his recent recordings, which are in the jazz genre, and they are superb.”</p>

<p>You are simply wrong, he can hardly play in tune in first position. I am not attacking him as a person but rather looking at his level of playing critically (something that does not happen at Juilliard). He did study classical, so that disproves your point. I was simply comparing him to others applying to Juilliard who have more credentials/ability and who have worked harder. Richmond’s level of playing simply is unprofessional and it is wrong when a school like Juilliard (which claims to be wordclass) accepts someone like this and rejects a person who plays as well as the person I know who was a winner at a major international competition in the category of Brussels, Paganini, Sibelius etc. I can’t name one professional thing Richmond has done. Can anyone?</p>

[WindCloudUltra]

<p>It (Classical Music) is not a tough market. It’s a declining market at best and a dying one at worst. Frankly, creative and entrepreneurial skills will get you farther than that Juilliard degree.</p>

[fisheee]

<p>OK, I’ve gone to youtube and checked out the recordings, and they don’t make change my opinions - your post certainly sounds like sour grapes to me. I think we all know that things other than how you play in the audition will come into the admissions process (in ALL schools, not just Juilliard). I’m sure that 90% of the students that audition at Juilliard are excellent musicians, that could all do well at the school. If, for whatever reason, someone like Richmond Punch grabbed the attention of the panel, or a certain teacher, more than the playing of an international award winner, then that’s just the way it goes.</p>

<p>And if you think orchestral auditions are significantly different, you’ve got another think coming!</p>

[Mystery99]

<p>Listening to those recordings hasn’t changed your opinion? Well I guess out of tune playing doesn’t bother you. It bothers me! Sour grapes? No way, I wouldn’t want to play like either Punch or Kaplan. I played much better than either one of them when I was 10? But that’s not a big deal, many can. And that is the point I’d like to reiterate. It is not how you play that matters at Juilliard - but who you know.</p>

[WindCloudUltra]

<p>Not confirming or denying anything Mystery99 is implying (I know next to nothing about prestige/names in the violin world), though I’d just like to note that at least in composition, Juilliard isn’t necessarily ‘the best.’ I’m not wild about any one on the faculty–though I can occasionally stomach some Corigliano. Of my list of top 10-15 living composers–only one or two have any Juilliard pedigree; the most prominent being Steve Reich. </p>

<p>Of the 4 main comp faculty members, all have Ivy League pedigrees and none from Juilliard. Corigliano at Columbia, Rouse at Oberlin/Cornell, Adler at Harvard and Beaser is a Yalie. Irony indeed.</p>

<p>(No sour grapes here–never considered, or will ever consider applying to Juilliard)</p>

[rigaudon]

<p>I am appalled that someone is allowed to name and so berate an individual who probably was unknown to most of the readers here before they came across the posts by Mystery99. And when I suggest that I don’t think the person being attacked is famous, or highly well-known at this point in his career, that is not meant to be a criticism, I just think there are so many young people who are active in music careers whose names are not (yet?) “household words.” So in my opinion, if someone made a post and said someone internationally known (e.g. someone at the level of fame/success of Andre Rieu) was overrated, that would be very different to me than what Mystery99 has written. </p>

<p>Recently there was a thread in which a music professor was attacked and people wrote to say that was against the terms of CC. Why is that not against the terms of CC if an individual such as the person Mystery99 wrote about was named and so berated? And for those of you who have responded to Mystery99 in terms of “sour grapes,” the reality that there is potential bias in all auditions/evaluations, or even that a famous conservatory may be flawed/overrated, take a minute to think about how you would have felt if Mystery99 named you or your own son or daughter in this manner. I think this thread or at least anything in it identifying and attacking an individual by name, should be removed.</p>

[fisheee]

<p>Rigaudon - I agree with you that the OP posting specific names to pick on is bad form, but I do sort of see her point about anything on youtube being up for comment. Personally, the videos that I looked at did not make me see her point of view, on the contrary, I was impressed that the violinist came out of Juilliard such an individual and obviously successful musician (in his own way and field).</p>

<p>If Mystery99 had named myself or anyone else I personally knew, I probably would have felt even more that it was sour grapes on her part. I’m sure that as musicians we are all used to getting a spot that someone else’s mom thought was theirs; it pays to develop a tough skin!</p>

[Mystery99]

<p>Rigaudon -</p>

<p>You know instead of trying to get this discussion thread removed (to shut me up) because you do not agree with me, why not come up with a better argument and prove me wrong? </p>

<p>I wasn’t attacking (x or y) . I was using their (out of tune/mediocre) level of playing to illustrate how Juilliard isn’t a worldclass school like its PR has made you believe for years. It isn’t all about how you play, which they try to make you believe if you get turned down, it is based on who you’ve studied with in the past, which summer camp you’ve spent thousands of dollars at etc. </p>

<p>There are people who post on here, who’s playing I am very familiar with, that play at a higher level than either (x or y). Some of these people weren’t accepted to the Juilliard ‘School’. All I am trying to say is that it is an extremely political place, and not a meritocracy but more like a snakepit. </p>

<p>As far as me ‘berating’ or ‘attacking’ (x and y), where did I belittled their personality, or change the subject matter away from actual ability comparison? My critique of their performances were purely objective from a professional ear (yes I do get paid to do what I do) and used to illustrate the political nature of admissions and the frankly incompetent level of playing by a faculty member. </p>

<p>As I said earlier, their videos are fair game. When you put anything up for peer review, you have to accept that it might be critiqued. Or if you cannot take the heat as they say - get out of the kitchen.</p>

[musician55]

<p>I wholeheartedly agree, I know places like Colburn/Curtis/Juilliard that in order to get in you may need some connections. That’s what music is about, it’s about networking and sometimes the best auditionees do not get in which is unfair. I know there are people who don’t get have any connections and are accepted which is great, but I do agree that politics can interfere with the game and certain schools, there is NO doubt about that in my book. Certainly some of the most successful people though are the people who have received rejections from those particular schools and went to others instead.</p>

[violadad]

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