But I thought HYP were national universities! Why are ALL schools so regional??

Parents Forum
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<p>One of the things that is most frustrating on CC is the perennial insistence that among elite schools, some are "national" schools and others are merely regional up-and-comers. Bclintonk and I did some analysis of data and I want to present the results to you all. I apologize for the format - if there were a way to post the actual spreadsheet with color coding, it would be far preferable, but I have no such means.</p>

<p>Anyway, this is the philosophy behind it. This post covers top universities; a later one will cover LACs.</p>

<p>Too many people start out by saying "Well, x% of College A's population is from such-and-such region." So what? That's a meaningless number unless you know what % of the country's population is from that area. If I were to say that 10% of Harvard's pop was from MA and 10% from CA, you'd all intuitively know that MA was "overrepresented" and CA "underrepresented" relative to one another. </p>

<p>So what we did is we created an index of the student body from a given geographic area relative to the % of the overall population from that given geographic area. (See bottom of the post for definitions.)</p>

<p>Now, there are a few assumptions inherent in here - that the % of the US college-age population in any given state mirrors the % of the US population in that state (that is, no state is "older" or "younger"). That may or may not be true. This also assumes that "smartness" is evenly distributed among the population - that is, there are no inherently smarter or dumber regions. Again, that may or may not be true. </p>

<p>This analysis does NOT shed any light onto whether elite colleges "favor" or "disfavor" people from their home region. You don't know if an index is high because that college just looooves people from that area, or whether their applicant pool is heavily weighted to that area. Either or both of those things could be true; we just don't know. What we do know is that basically every single college -- yes, including Ivies -- is heavily regional to home region.</p>

<p>Here's how you read this below:
Each college is listed, and then its index to Northeast, Midwest, Southeast, West.
I've grouped the colleges together by their home region just to make it easy.</p>

<p>So to pick on our erstwhile friend Harvard, the index of 208 means that the Harvard class is twice as likely to be from the Northeast as one would expect given the population of the Northeast, has average development in the West, and is pitifully underdeveloped in the Midwest and Southeast. </p>

<p>Without further ado, here is the research university data. Observations in next post.</p>

<p>College .... Northeast, Midwest, Southeast, West</p>

<p>Top Universities:
Those Located In Northeast:
Brown 242, 45, 36, 100
Columbia 247, 39, 48, 84
Cornell 302, 32, 32, 58
Dartmouth 231, 55, 43, 91
Harvard 208, 58, 54, 96
Penn 271, 42, 42, 64
Princeton 227, 52, 46, 95
Yale 214, 60, 54, 89
MIT 180, 72, 65, 95
CMU 267, 49, 34, 74
JHU 282, 47, 31, 65
Gtown 257, 50, 43, 70</p>

<p>Those Located in Midwest:
Chicago 133, 161, 48, 81
WashU 130, 159, 58, 71
NU 107, 225, 42, 54
Notre Dame 110, 195, 53, 64</p>

<p>Those Located in South:
Duke 157, 42, 121, 69
Vbilt 108, 90, 152, 30
Emory 120, 40, 167, 45</p>

<p>Those Located in West:
Rice 58, 32, 204, 63 (note: TX is included in the def'n of south, see below)
Stanford 81, 45, 44, 249
USC 56, 39, 30, 300</p>

<hr>

<p>All figures for all schools represent standard coding for region, as follows: </p>

<p>Northeast: U.S. Census Bureau Northeast Region (CT, MA, ME, NH, NJ, NY, PA, RI, VT) plus DC, DE, MD, VA<br>
Southeast: U.S. Census Bureau South region (AL, AR, FL, GA, KY, LA, MS, NC, OK, SC, TN, TX, WV), minus DC, DE, MD, VA<br>
Midwest: U.S. Census Bureau Midwest Region (IA, IL, IN, KS, MI, MN, MO, NE, ND, OH, SD, WI)<br>
West: U.S. Census Bureau West Region (AK, AZ, CA, CO, HI, ID, MT, NV, NM, OR, UT, WA, WY)  </p>

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<p>General observations:
Every one of the Ivies is FAR more Northeastern in scope than they “should be” if they had a truly national reach. The “best” on this is Yale - the “worst” on this is Cornell, which is 3x developed in the Northeast.
Only some Ivies (Brown, Columbia, Dartmouth, Harvard, Princeton, Yale) are averagely-developed in the west. The others are undeveloped in the west.
And no Ivy reaches even fair-share status in the Midwest or the Southeast.<br>
(And people on CC sitting in suburban MA or NY wonder why these schools do mailings, because gosh, all their neighbors have heard of Ivies. The answer should be obvious.)</p>

<p>Of the midwestern top schools, UChicago and WashU have different patterns.
NU and ND have patterns akin to some of the Ivies - most developed in home region, average development in another region (East), below average in the remaining regions. WashU and UChicago have a different pattern - while they are still most developed in home region, they are both overdeveloped in the northeast.<br>
(For all the supposed johnny-come-lately status of WashU, it’s notable that they achieve a more national student body than ANY Ivy.)</p>

<p>Of the southern top schools, Duke is a real outlier.
It is the only school on here that has its highest development OUTSIDE its home region - that is, in the northeast.<br>
(The jokes about Duke being southern NJ might have a germ of truth to them …)
Emory has a pattern similar to UChicago and Wash U (strongest in home region, but overdeveloped in another region) … Vanderbilt has a pattern similar to NU and ND (strongest in home region, average in another region).</p>

<p>Of the Western schools, Stanford’s just as regional as the Ivies.</p>

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<p>Here’s the data for top LAC’s.</p>

<p>College … Northeast, Midwest, Southeast, West</p>

<p>Top LACs:
Those Located in Northeast/
Williams 248, 53, 35, 87
Amherst 246, 55, 43, 77
Swat 269, 39, 32, 85
Middlebury 278, 43, 33, 71
Wellesley 213, 70, 41, 98
Bowdoin 293, 45, 30, 57
Haverford 294, 38, 27, 66
Wesleyan 271, 48, 24, 83
Vassar 272, 38, 24, 93
Hamilton 332, 44, 21, 32
Colgate 318, 43, 19, 49</p>

<p>Those Located in Midwest
Carleton 103, 203, 29, 97
Grinnell 86, 226, 26, 96
Oberlin 203, 108, 38, 75
Macalester 110, 205, 27, 91</p>

<p>Those Located in Southeast:
Davidson 154, 41, 149, 34
W&Lee 206, 47, 115, 23</p>

<p>Those Located in West
Pomona 91, 80, 30, 226
CMcKenna 54, 41, 23, 310
H Mudd 90, 50, 24, 263
Colorado Coll 121, 79, 33, 192</p>

<hr>

<p>All figures for all schools represent standard coding for region, as follows:</p>

<p>Northeast: U.S. Census Bureau Northeast Region (CT, MA, ME, NH, NJ, NY, PA, RI, VT) plus DC, DE, MD, VA
Southeast: U.S. Census Bureau South region (AL, AR, FL, GA, KY, LA, MS, NC, OK, SC, TN, TX, WV), minus DC, DE, MD, VA
Midwest: U.S. Census Bureau Midwest Region (IA, IL, IN, KS, MI, MN, MO, NE, ND, OH, SD, WI)
West: U.S. Census Bureau West Region (AK, AZ, CA, CO, HI, ID, MT, NV, NM, OR, UT, WA, WY) </p>

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<p>LAC observations:</p>

<p>You can’t get more regional (overdeveloped in home region and underdeveloped EVERYWHERE else) than Amherst, Middlebury, Bowdoin, Haverford, Hamilton, Colgate.</p>

<p>Despite the trope that all the midwestern LACs are made up of local farm people, it’s interesting how Carleton, Grinnel and Macalester all represent well in both the East and Midwest. Like what I observed about WashU and U of Chicago, these 3 schools have built more-national student bodies compared to many of the others.</p>

<p>Just as Duke is the outlier of unis – Oberlin is the outlier of LAC’s. Index of 203 to Northeast, only 108 to its home region. </p>

<p>Davidson and W&L have strong northeast presence, though I’m willing to admit that may be driven by the inclusion of VA in the Northeast definition. </p>

<p>And of the western LACs, they are (obviously) just as western skewed - Pomona and H Mudd do a bit better job than C McK in the northeast. </p>

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<p>A “truly national student body” for any of these colleges would have indexes hovering around 100 (maybe between 80 and 120) for ALL regions. It would mean that they drew an applicant pool consistent with the size of the pop in each region and that they admitted “fairly” (assuming that qualifications are distributed evenly).</p>

<p>There’s no college that is even remotely close to this.</p>

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<p>Interesting data…as someone living in the SouthEast it confirms my feelings. </p>

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<p>How about the proportion of population in each area? In 2010 I’m seeing:
55 million people in the Northeast
67 million in the Midwest
115 million in the Southeast
72 million in the West</p>

<p>That makes the stats even worse, right?</p>

<p>So I tried to figure out how many people in each region have attended college. I didn’t have data by region, it was by state.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0233.xls”>http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0233.xls&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The first time I get to a Southeast state when ranking in decreasing order by percent of respondents with a bachelor’s degree is 21st. By that time, I’ve already had 11 of the 13 Northeast region states.</p>

<p>Northeast region is tops with 33.6% with bachelor’s degrees or higher.
West region is next highest with 27.6% with bachelor’s degrees or higher.
Midwest region is 26.5% with bachelor’s degree or higher.
Southeast region is 22.7% with bachelor’s degree or higher.</p>

<p>These aren’t averages weighted by state size though, but I’ll use them anyway.
NE: 55 million * 33.6% = 18.5 million
MW: 67 million * 26.5% = 17.8 million
SE: 115 million * 22.7% = 26.1 million
W: 72 million * 27.6% = 19.9 million</p>

<p>This brings the numbers closer (if we assume that having a college degree = your child is more likely to pursue a better college than if you don’t have a degree at all). But still it seems that the SE has more college graduates so should have more students at top schools.</p>

<p>I am wondering if the percent with college educations in the Southeast (although already the worst in the US) is skewed by people retiring to Florida because they can afford to.</p>

<p>Interestingly, a cursory glance at the data indicates that percent of Northeast residents with advanced degrees is nearly twice that as Southeast residents (14.2% vs. 7.9%). Perhaps that correlates more with attending top schools.</p>

<p>And let me make sure I am interpreting this right. If the numbers are: Harvard 208, 58, 54, 96 in order of NE, MW, SE, W. So finding the percentages, for US students only, of that Harvard class is:<br>
Harvard: 50% NE, 14% MW, 13% SE, and 23% W.</p>

<p>I would also endeavor to say that travel costs do matter - if you get a full ride to Harvard, and you are from Alabama, what is your travel cost back and forth? Who is paying that? Why would you not go to Rice? (what percentage of college students, at these institutions and overall, go to college within five hours of their home?)</p>

<p>Interesting post, thank you.</p>

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<p>You could probably post the spreadsheet as a Google Doc and link to it.</p>

<p>I am curious - are these undergraduate populations only, or full student population? </p>

<p>I’m also curious about how the student’s state of origin is determined. Are we certain that in these numbers the student is represented by their state of residence when they applied? Or is it possible that a student who has been at the college long enough to establish residency in the state would be reported as from the same state as the college?</p>

<p>This is an interesting analysis, but it will be easier to interpret and understand if the source data is cited and we know how the computations were done.</p>

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<p>Interestingly, just a day or two ago I was talking with someone in the grocery store line, and she was California-born, and married to a Philly area guy. Because it was relevant to the discussion we’d been having about where my kids are at school (she’d seen my window stickers in the parking lot), I said that I had gone to Swarthmore. She said something along the lines of “That’s a very regional school; I had never heard of it before I married my husband”.</p>

<p>For LACs, I think there-in lies a difficulty. We have no way of knowing how many western kids don’t apply to eastern LACs simply because they’ve never heard of them. So it can be impossible for those schools to be “even”. Now even I will admit that everyone, everywhere, has heard of Yale and Harvard. But Brown? Maybe not. Something to ponder. </p>

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<p>"tHow about the proportion of population in each area? In 2010 I’m seeing:
55 million people in the Northeast
67 million in the Midwest
115 million in the Southeast
72 million in the West</p>

<p>That makes the stats even worse, right?"</p>

<p>No, I already took that into account, rhandco, because I was doing it based off census data. That’s why I had an index. </p>

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<p>A few observations:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>MIT is the most national of these schools, being the only one who has an index of at least 65 for all 4 regions (and the only Northeastern school with an NE index below 200). (Makes sense if you think about it.)</p></li>
<li><p>All the OH privates who people outside of OH have heard of (Case, Kenyon, etc.) draw heavily from the Northeast. (Also makes sense if you think about it.)</p></li>
<li><p>There are some publics that are very highly regarded overall, there more publics that are very highly regarded in a broad area of study (like engineering or business), and there are flagships that people of certain states have a lot of pride in and feel loyalty to regardless of rankings or reputation among outsiders. With the exception of UVa, W&M, PSU (when it comes to state pride; also Pitt when it comes to city pride), and maybe UMD & VTech for engineering, these publics are all located outside the Northeast.</p></li>
<li><p>And yes, travel costs & distance from home do matter (they matter more for kids from rural areas, IMO).</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>But I assume you didn’t take into account education level, correct?</p>

<p>And what are we really talking about - student population at these universities = regional or national, or REPUTATION of these universities = regional or national (or international).</p>

<p>It’s pretty clear to me that Swarthmore has a pretty good reputation in the Northeast. However, it’s also pretty clear to me that it is doubtful that people from the Midwest, Southeast, and West have heard of it.</p>

<p>Name recognition is really what national universities vs. regional universities are.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/2014/09/08/how-us-news-calculated-the-2015-best-colleges-rankings”>http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/2014/09/08/how-us-news-calculated-the-2015-best-colleges-rankings&lt;/a&gt;
"National Universities offer a full range of undergraduate majors, plus master’s and doctoral programs, and emphasize faculty research. National Liberal Arts Colleges focus almost exclusively on undergraduate education. They award at least 50 percent of their degrees in the arts and sciences. </p>

<p>Regional Universities offer a broad scope of undergraduate degrees and some master’s degree programs but few, if any, doctoral programs. Regional Colleges focus on undergraduate education but grant fewer than 50 percent of their degrees in liberal arts disciplines; this category also includes schools that have small bachelor’s degree programs but primarily grant two-year associate degrees. "</p>

<p>USN&WR says that it has to do with the courses offered, and nothing to do with the actual region. More of a convenience that expects people will not go to non-PhD-granting institutions outside their regional area of the US.</p>

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<p>“I am curious - are these undergraduate populations only, or full student population?”</p>

<p>Undergraduate. </p>

<p>“I’m also curious about how the student’s state of origin is determined. Are we certain that in these numbers the student is represented by their state of residence when they applied? Or is it possible that a student who has been at the college long enough to establish residency in the state would be reported as from the same state as the college?”</p>

<p>It’s based on state of residence when applied. </p>

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<p>Thank you Pizzagirl for confirming my suspicions regarding the regionality of higher ed preferences. As the parent of a Wellesley student, do you have any idea how it manages to draw from outside its region so well compared to other Northeastern LACs not near a census region border state (eg Ohio and NC)?</p>

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<p>I have no special insight as to how Wellesley does that. </p>

<p>It was interesting to me that my kids’ schools are both overindexed at the same level to their home region (NU 225 to midwest, Wellesley 213 to northeast) but their “second leaders” were different - NU average to the northeast and below average southeast and west, Wellesley average to the west and below average midwest and southeast. </p>

<p>My initial hypothesis might be that Wellesley is a particularly popular school among those of Asian descent and so that might pull in a higher California base since the Asian population is disproportionately concentrated there, but that’s just purely speculation on my part. </p>

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<p>In California, with the UC system, Stanford and USC, very few high school graduates bother going to the icy Northeast when the education here is as good or better and with better weather to boot.</p>

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<p>Living in NC, I see a significant percentage of kids, even at the private high school my kids go to, who have no desire to go out of state for school. NC has a great public system and even families that could afford to go elsewhere don’t. There are several other southern states that have similarly strong and affordable public systems. That, along with the generally lower rate of degrees held in the South, may account for some of the under-representation of the South in other regions. </p>

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<p>“or LACs, I think there-in lies a difficulty. We have no way of knowing how many western kids don’t apply to eastern LACs simply because they’ve never heard of them. So it can be impossible for those schools to be “even”. Now even I will admit that everyone, everywhere, has heard of Yale and Harvard. But Brown? Maybe not. Something to ponder.”</p>

<p>But see, this is my point. It’s “surprising” to people on the east coast that everyone hasn’t heard of Brown. It’s not even remotely surprising to people who don’t live in the northeast. Everything is regional, but for some reason those on the east think that their region represents the US. I get it, I’m from the northeast myself originally, I get the mindset.</p>

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<p>Very interesting data, Pizzagirl. One thing I don’t understand though is that you state that Yale is the “best” ivy for national reach. To my eyes it looks like Harvard is slightly less regional than Yale. Am I missing something?</p>

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<p>“Because it was relevant to the discussion we’d been having about where my kids are at school (she’d seen my window stickers in the parking lot), I said that I had gone to Swarthmore. She said something along the lines of “That’s a very regional school; I had never heard of it before I married my husband”.”</p>

<p>I think that’s the whole point. ALL of these schools are, for the most part, heavily regional (with the few exceptions I called out above). </p>

<p>Sure, Swat is heavily regional - 269, 39, 32, 85.
But that’s the EXACT SAME PATTERN as Princeton 227, 52, 46, 95.</p>

<p>And the Ivies are MORE regional (index 208-302 in home region) than the midwest top universities (index 159 - 225 in home region), which flies in the face of conventional CC wisdom that the Ivies are “where everyone everywhere wants to go” and the midwest top universities are “only where the midwesterners want to go.” </p>