But I thought HYP were national universities! Why are ALL schools so regional??

Parents Forum
741

<p>“I’m just trying to dispel the notion that the under-representation of the midwest at HYP is because of a lack of competitive applicants.”</p>

<p>How does your example dispel the notion? The kids didn’t get into Harvard, which by definition means that they didn’t fit the Harvard incoming class profile.</p>

<p>“Students at midwest/south public magnet schools generally have similar profiles in terms of ECs as Thomas Jefferson High School in Virginia. However, TJ seems to have a lot more success with HYP than schools not on the east coast.”</p>

<p>Then the MW/S public schools should hire away the college counselling team at TJ. Clearly they are doing something that the MW/S public schools are failing to do.</p>

<p>“The historic private high schools on the East Coast also have the advantage of having hundreds of years of having a relationship between them and Harvard.”</p>

<p>Relationship is important. Who would you trust more when hiring someone? A person with a recommendation from someone you have a longstanding and fruitful business relationship with, or another with one from someone you don’t know at all?</p>

<p>“I wouldn’t expect the ratio of admits over 10 years for MIT and Harvard to be 150 to zero. MIT is about 50% smaller than Harvard, and probably half of Harvard’s majors are in math and science (many premeds.) And these other schools aren’t any more math/sci slanted weren’t than Thomas Jefferson.”</p>

<p>Well, they are two different schools. Kids get accepted at Harvard and not MIT, and vice versa, all the time. </p>

742

<p>“The problems were to rely on a flawed thesis from the get go and unclear data.”</p>

<p>I think the main issue was first order problem solving and not asking any second or third order questions, like distribution of qualified students by state, pull of state schools, preference by kids to go college closer to home etc.</p>

743

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<p>Why do we have the SAT, ACT and AP tests (among others) then? According to your logic, we should just go back to the “old boys’ club” that ensured a pipeline into top colleges from the “right” boarding schools and private day schools.</p>

<p>I would NEVER make a hiring decision based on a recommendation over demonstrated skills, fit, personality, etc. And I don’t know many people who would.</p>

744

<p>^^^ I do not see it as that complicated. Just a wrong thesis! </p>

745

<p>That is not what I meant. What I meant this: if two kids, one from Roxbury Latin and one from a S/MW magnet school that has never placed a kid in Harvard show up with the exact same credentials and recommendations, the one from Rox is likely getting preference. That’s how all human beings work (including you, I believe, so please correct me if I am wrong).</p>

<p>Also, colleges often discount SAT/ACT/AP scores to get the right SES/racial mix in the classroom. Are you against that?</p>

746

<p>Fortunately, admissions offices do take chances. My son was the first from his HS (nothing special) to be accepted into 2 tech schools. I’m sure these schools could have found others from TJ or Stuy to admit.</p>

747

<p>“Fortunately, admissions offices do take chances. My son was the first from his HS (nothing special) to be accepted into 2 tech schools. I’m sure these schools could have found others from TJ or Stuy to admit.”</p>

<p>Or he had exceptional academic credentials. Recommendations are a tie breaker between two otherwise identical candidates.</p>

748

<p>“And if there is scope for yet another question, why do you think proportional distribution is something you would want PG-U to aim for? I understand how under representation by minorities or low SES groups hurt the country. However, I am curious how under representation by geographial footprint hurts anything, especially since there are good schools everywhere.”</p>

<p>I am surprised to hear you say that you think underrepresentation of minorities or low SES groups hurt the country - but on second thought, I would like to clarify, because I could read this two ways.

  1. It hurts the country insofar as minorities and lower SES are not getting the appropriate secondary education to compete effectively.
  2. It hurts the elite college experience if the college is solely comprised of rich white kids.
    I am guessing you meant #1 and not #2, but feel free to correct me.</p>

<p>But in any case, having at least some semblance of a national student body was relatively important to me and was so in our kids’ selection of colleges. If my midwestern kids get to be friends with kids from California and Texas and Florida and Massachusetts, how is that not a good thing? </p>

<p>FWIW, both of my kids’ schools are represented in the lists I provided, as both are top 20 schools. One goes to school at a midwest private, one goes to school at a northeast private (not an Ivy). As it happened, both of their schools had similar profiles to one another and to the Ivies. </p>

<p>“I am not challenging anything here, I am just trying to understand your perspective. Do you think S and MW students are not well served by their state schools and local privates? Why would they need to come to the NE to get educated?”</p>

<p>I guess my question is - why <em>wouldn’t</em> they consider coming to the NE? Not because the NE schools are “better,” but when you look at good schools, you’re likely going to wind up with some NE schools on your list because well, that’s where they are located. </p>

<p>Having lived in both the NE and the Midwest, stereotypes abound on either side. When I lived in the NE and moved to the midwest, I thought everyone out here was pretty much a hayseed. Imagine my surprise when I found culture and education and … well, upper middle class suburban life that resembled the upper middle class suburban life of the NE. Likewise, too many midwesterners act as though the east coast is some dreaded place where they all talk fast and it’s to be feared. It’s all silly. In an era where I can hop on a plane, there was simply no reason <em>not</em> to have my kids consider the NE. </p>

749

<p>Thomas Jefferson sends many more kids (understandably) to Virginia instate schools than to HYP in a given year . texaspg posted the 2013 acceptances (455 students in the class) in post # 382… The top 5 acceptances were to UVa (195), Wm & M (190), Virginia Tech (104), GMU (57), VCU (40). The highest private was Cornell at 37 acceptances. Princeton was 18, Duke 16, MIT 12. There is no way to know where they actually matriculated from this list or how many kids actually applied to HYP. There were less than 10 acceptances to Harvard and Yale (under 10 acceptances were not listed). </p>

750

<p>I think the main issue was first order problem solving and not asking any second or third order questions, like distribution of qualified students by state, pull of state schools, preference by kids to go college closer to home etc."</p>

<p>In my first post, I explicitly addressed the assumption of the distribution of qualified students by state, and said that I didn’t have the data and the assumption that it was evenly distributed might or might not be true. I figured there was a preference by kids to go to college closer to home, but I didn’t realize how strong it was. I didn’t fully think out the pull of state schools as a reason why some regions wouldn’t “show up” at all. </p>

751

<p>thanks, but I still think his being from a no-name HS intrigued admissions.</p>

752

<p>So Catalan, you are essentially saying Harvard et al. are actively working to perpetuate the lack of geographic diversity in their student bodies by bringing in more of the same students with the same education and life experience. Which, we know, is the opposite of what they are doing in real life.</p>

<p>And no, I don’t work the way you think most people do. In fact, I dislike some aspects of LinkedIn for this very reason. I don’t like the pressure to “endorse” or recommend people who I may know from my professional life but either a) have no opinion of with regard to their qualifications or b) would never want to be in a position of being asked to vouch for because of my experience with them in the workplace. As far as how I hire now, it’s the strength of a person’s portfolio, proven (and verifiable) success in previous jobs, awards and other recognition where applicable, and how they seem to fit in interviews with me and my team that gets them the job. We do check references and also bring in referrals as a courtesy but I have turned away plenty of people with connections to my organization (and our company gives generous referral bonuses, so this is not a decision anyone takes lightly).</p>

753

<p>"I am surprised to hear you say that you think underrepresentation of minorities or low SES groups hurt the country - but on second thought, I would like to clarify, because I could read this two ways.

  1. It hurts the country insofar as minorities and lower SES are not getting the appropriate secondary education to compete effectively.
  2. It hurts the elite college experience if the college is solely comprised of rich white kids.
    I am guessing you meant #1 and not #2, but feel free to correct me."</p>

<p>Yes, it is #1. </p>

<p>“But in any case, having at least some semblance of a national student body was relatively important to me and was so in our kids’ selection of colleges. If my midwestern kids get to be friends with kids from California and Texas and Florida and Massachusetts, how is that not a good thing?”</p>

<p>I didn’t ask about some semblance. I asked about proportional representation with tight variance bands like you had said earlier (70-130). Now you are swinging back to “some semblance”. I am not arguing against “some semblance”, and Ivies have more than “some semblance”, if you will. I want to focus the discussion on what you said is your hypothetical preference - proportional reprsentation within tight variance bands. I asked why you think that’s important and would much appreciate if you kindly answer that instead of sidestepping to “some semblance”.</p>

<p>“I guess my question is - why <em>wouldn’t</em> they consider coming to the NE? Not because the NE schools are “better,” but when you look at good schools, you’re likely going to wind up with some NE schools on your list because well, that’s where they are located.”</p>

<p>Well, if they have equally good schools close to home, and like normal human beings they have a home preference, why would they travel far away from home to get basically the same education? There has to be something NE schools have to offer to draw these students, and as you claim, the NE schools are not better than the S/MW schools.</p>

<p>Or, are they? </p>

<p>“Having lived in both the NE and the Midwest, stereotypes abound on either side. When I lived in the NE and moved to the midwest, I thought everyone out here was pretty much a hayseed. Imagine my surprise when I found culture and education and … well, upper middle class suburban life that resembled the upper middle class suburban life of the NE. Likewise, too many midwesterners act as though the east coast is some dreaded place where they all talk fast and it’s to be feared. It’s all silly. In an era where I can hop on a plane, there was simply no reason <em>not</em> to have my kids consider the NE.”</p>

<p>Well, people still do have home bias. You may not like it, but it is there. I still don’t understand, however, why someone would drive across town to go to a supermarket when there is another within 5 minutes. Of course, hopping in a car is quite easy, and has been for ages. </p>

<p>I personally would make the trek only if the supermarket far away is better than the one close home. What would you do?</p>

754

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<p>I find it especially sad that it is considered “taking chances” to admit a student to TECH SCHOOLS simply because the high school hadn’t gotten anyone in before. If ever there was a place where credentials could be evaluated objectively, I’d think a tech school would be it.</p>

755

<p>“In my first post, I explicitly addressed the assumption of the distribution of qualified students by state, and said that I didn’t have the data and the assumption that it was evenly distributed might or might not be true. I figured there was a preference by kids to go to college closer to home, but I didn’t realize how strong it was. I didn’t fully think out the pull of state schools as a reason why some regions wouldn’t “show up” at all.”</p>

<p>That’s why second and third order questions are very important in statistical analysis, as is getting the hypothesis about the population distribution right. Otherwise you will end up with a conlcusion that makes no sense. But you are trained in statistics so you already know this.</p>

756

<p>“thanks, but I still think his being from a no-name HS intrigued admissions.”</p>

<p>Do you like to think that, or do you know that? We all project our biases to the preference of others, that’s why I am asking.</p>

757

<p>“So Catalan, you are essentially saying Harvard et al. are actively working to perpetuate the lack of geographic diversity in their student bodies by bringing in more of the same students with the same education and life experience. Which, we know, is the opposite of what they are doing in real life.”</p>

<p>I am not saying that at all, and you are right, they are doing the exact opposite. I am merely saying that the reason there is no proportional representation (but high representation regardless) is because of the factors I mention. They are real, and not just at Harvard. </p>

<p>"As far as how I hire now, it’s the strength of a person’s portfolio, proven (and verifiable) success in previous jobs, awards and other recognition where applicable, and how they seem to fit in interviews with me and my team that gets them the job. "</p>

<p>If you get two brilliant candidates who pass through all the criteria (and then some), are identical in all respects except for their recommendations, and even the recommendations are identical word for word, but one is from someone you know and trust, and the other is from someone you don’t know, who would you hire?</p>

758

<p>“If ever there was a place where credentials could be evaluated objectively, I’d think a tech school would be it.”</p>

<p>Do you think MIT should recruit purely based on credentials like Caltech does? What would the racial distribution be at MIT then? Will there be any sizable URM representation? And will you be OK with that?</p>

759

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<p>I would trust my instincts. And two people cannot be identical anyway, so it’s a silly question. There are other reasons to give the nod to someone who was recommended to me, though. They would have more to do with my relationship with the recommender, though. There are benefits to building and using networks, obviously.</p>

760

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<p>We are not talking about racial or socioeconomic diversity here. And MIT can do whatever it wants as long as it is legal and fits within its mission.</p>