<p>sally: could you or PG please give me examples using school names, because maybe I don’t read those threads or just don’t remember. I honestly am not sure what you are referencing.</p>
<p>ETA: What has been posted? What is the objection? How does this chart fit into that?</p>
<p>Thanks in advance. </p>
<p>alh, I can’t speak for PG, but we have both observed a tendency here for people to exalt east-coast elite schools over those in other parts of the country and to dismiss schools in other areas as more “regional” compared to the ones they are familiar with. It gets frustrating to respond to people who won’t consider a school like WashU over, say, Penn because “WashU is so midwestern”–when in fact WashU is one of the most “national” of all elite universities–more than any Ivy. As PG has pointed out, this happens with LACs too–Carleton is “too rural” while the far more remote Williams is not. (Those are just a couple of examples, but you get the idea.)</p>
<p>Thank you, sally. That’s exactly it. </p>
<p>Does this go beyond northeastern parents, on college confidential, saying NE schools are “best” and those in other geographic areas saying their schools are “best”? I’m not trying close down the discussion. I’m just not sure what the argument is here. Is the point to create some sort of CC consensus that WashU = Penn; Carelton = Williams? I would have thought it already pretty much existed in general terms. Maybe you could argue various departments at the individual schools might be better fits overall for individual students, but beyond that? </p>
<p>ETA: occasionally posters have written they wouldn’t consider sending their kids to colleges in the south, that they have serious issues with southern culture. It doesn’t even seem to have to do with academics. I admit it’s sort of insulting to me. Is this the sort of thing you are talking about or am I just missing the point still? I am not trying to be difficult or argumentative - really. just trying to understand.</p>
<p>“It may be a myth that northeastern elites are more geographically diverse than their Midwestern/southern counterparts, but it’s not a myth that top northeastern elites are making greater recruiting efforts to pursue the smart kids from other parts of the country.”</p>
<p>Interestingly enough, the reaction to (say) Brown sending out mass mailings is different from the reaction to (say) WashU doing so. When Brown does it, it’s just naturally extending its reach as God intended. When WashU does it, who do they think <em>they</em> are, to try to compete with the big boys?</p>
<p>“It’s just that it seems they are not successful in attracting as many smart but provincial Midwesterners. Meanwhile, the northeasterners though they be just as provincial seem to be more willing to travel to another region for a prestigious college”</p>
<p>You keep saying that. The data doesn’t tell you absolute <em>rates.</em> It does not enable me to answer the question “of students interested in a prestigious college, what % travel outside home region and what % don’t.” It’s also important to note that in the midwest, Michigan IS a prestigious college; in the South, GA Tech IS a prestigious college; in the West, Berkeley and UCLA ARE prestigious colleges. The world of prestige is not just defined by the northeast view.</p>
<p>* The world of prestige is not just defined by the northeast view.*</p>
<p>Is this the main point? </p>
<p>If there are a large number of applicants from a certain segment but only a few (or otherwise significantly unproportionally) end up admitted, over time the only reason would be there are fewer applicants from this segment are qualified or as competitive relative to the admitted - unless colleges predefine a quota for this segment. So although the data doesn’t show the “rates”, if we believe in the fundamental integrity of the process, the outcome does show the “input”. I don’t think the smart Midwesterners are overall less qualified. The only conclusion I could draw is that there are not enough of them applying. Look at CA, as the most populous state, it provides more applicants and as a result it’s well represented in some northeastern private colleges. That should be a natural tendency over time.</p>
<p>Personally? I believe the findings reflect the skews of the applicant pool – that if I were indexing the APPLICANT POOLS to the regions (versus the incoming class of actual attendees which is what I have here), I suspect the indexes would be pretty darn similar. I don’t believe that there’s any reason to believe the actual acceptance rates by region are wildly different from one another (though it’s possible that they are a little lower in home region because yield is likely higher in home region so you don’t need to accept as many to “capture” them, as you might with farther-away regions). So, again in the absence of confirmatory data, I suspect that the pattern here merely represents the applicant pool. But the fact that the applicant pools are so regional I think is very interesting. </p>
<p>“just that it seems they are not successful in attracting as many smart but provincial Midwesterners. Meanwhile, the northeasterners though they be just as provincial seem to be more willing to travel to another region for a prestigious college (admittedly some of them may choose to do so because they have not been able to get in the super elites in their region because it’s that competitive)”</p>
<p>It would be interesting to know what is the number of total college “seats” in each region compared to the number of total college “bodies” in the region. Just looking at the schools I’ve looked at doesn’t provide the fullest picture, because the “smart Northerners” are looking pretty much at this competitive set (since their publics aren’t as good, comparatively speaking), whereas the “smart Midwesterners” are including Michigan / Wisconsin / maybe Illinois, the “smart southerns” are including GA Tech, UTexas, etc. and the “smart westerners” are including Berkeley / UCLA / potentially other UC’s in their immediate competitive set. </p>
<p>@twoinanddone:</p>
<p>“And this is one small school (1000 students) in the state, so I’m sure students from other schools also wanted to attend the academies (and were admitted and appointed)”</p>
<p>Extrapolating from 1 data point is generally ill-advised.</p>
<p>Furthermore, as I noted above, the POTUS can nominate a bunch of kids of career military, and it wouldn’t surprise me if a disproportionate number of them work at the Pentagon and thus live in either MD or VA.</p>
<p>The Navy/Marines can also nominate active-duty military for the Naval Academy, and many of them may be connected to the Pentagon as well.</p>
<p>@sorghum: With the nomination process being what it is, my guess is that there is a tilt towards VA and MD because the Pentagon is there.</p>
<p>However, note that the most populous state (CA) is still the most represented at the Naval Academy (for instance) and the second most populous state (TX) is the 2nd-most represented.</p>
<p>Compare with Duke and UPenn, where the most represented state at those schools are NC and PA, respectively, even though NC only has 1/4th the population of CA and PA has less than 1/3rd the population of CA.</p>
<p>@Benley:</p>
<p>“but it’s not a myth that top northeastern elites are making greater recruiting efforts to pursue the smart kids from other parts of the country.”</p>
<p>Actually, That is a myth. The non-NE elites try to draw top students from anywhere in the country as well. And in fact, if you look at the numbers posted in the original post, schools like Chicago, Duke, Vandy, and WashU seem to do a better job of drawing in students from outside their home region than most of the Ivies.</p>
<p>Please take off your blinders. I’ve lived in the Midwest, Northwest, and Cali, and I have to say that you seem to have a seriously blinkered attitude. </p>
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</p>
<p>NYU’s grad schools, especially professional oriented ones have long been known to be good and in some cases several levels above most of their undergrad programs. </p>
<p>Some of that has had a spillover effect like the Stern School of Business’ MBA program onto its undergrad counterpart. </p>
<p>On the other hand, Steinhardt was regarded as one of those average to “sub-par” undergrad areas because it was strongly focused on education at the undergrad level. A field well-known within and among those who know academia as having a hard time in attracting a critical mass of strong students until the 2008 recession. </p>
<p>I can’t fathom how Steinhardt has had a “spillover effect” like Stern on CAS when CAS had higher admission requirements even back when I was in HS/college and correspondingly, had a stronger overall student body compared with Steinhardt. </p>
<p>With the exception of the well-off folks whose parents were “any private is better than public” and had few options due to lackluster HS academic performance, those I knew during my HS years who were turned down by CAS and offered a chance to attend Steinhardt would often turn down that offer themselves/have parents force them to do the same. </p>
<p>Most didn’t think Steinhardt was worth the high private school price tag considering it was geared mainly for undergrads aspiring to be K-12 educators and if one’s aspiring towards that career goal and couldn’t get into a comparable/higher ranked private college with full/near full FA/scholarships, attending a lower-ranked SUNY/CUNY was a good way to get the necessary education & credential without going into massive debt. </p>
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<p>I’m not so sure about that considering NYU Tisch is well known even among many folks who aren’t in the performing arts world as being among the top 3 programs for Film and among the top programs in acting and other performing arts. </p>
<p>Regarding post #105. The AP article quoted shows one of the statistics flubs that concerns me (as a once-upon-a-time journalism major). The article states that more than 1/3 of US Naval Academy students come from CA, TX, MD, VA, and FL. However, the article fails to state that over 31% of the population lives in those states. So, yes 31% vs. 36% means they are somewhat over-represented, but not grossly so. </p>
<p>If the reporter did the math, they would see that the actual vs. expected enrollments are as follows:</p>
<pre><code> Actual, Expected based on population
</code></pre>
<p>MD 300, 85
VA 286, 119
CA 442, 553
TX 331, 382
FL 280, 282
VT 7, 9
ND 8, 10
SD 9, 12
WY 14, 8
NH 14, 19
AK 14, 10</p>
<p>Looks to me like the story is that MD and VA are significantly over-represented, CA and TX are under, and perhaps the reporter thinks it’s significant that there are a small number of students from states with small populations, but it’s actually just that they have really small populations. Anyone who cites numbers like these should remember that California’s population is over 66 times that of Wyoming.</p>
<p>Sorry, it’s a pet peeve of mine being from CA. So many articles say, “CA has the most ___ of any state in the nation.” Tell me if CA has significantly more that 12% of all ___ in the nation, and then I’ll pay attention.</p>
<p>Ynotgo, that’s exactly it. </p>
<p>I expect my fresh-out-of-college grads to do what you did in that post. “36% come from 5 states” and then include 3 very populous states is junk. </p>
<p>regarding recruiting efforts: Isn’t that the point of the merit scholarship awards (which don’t require financial need) at schools like Chicago, Duke, Vandy, WashU? Aren’t they supposed to entice students away from elite northeast FA only schools? And encourage more applications overall?</p>
<p>And I’m just wondering at this point if Benley didn’t get all those Chicago mailings?</p>
<p>Regarding post #141: I don’t see those negative attitudes in our MidAtlantic state. What I see is a strong regard for perceived educational quality/ranking which often trumps geographic area. People here are plenty willing to travel for a top school. At my D’s National Merit ceremony in early winter, the principal read the college admissions results to date of the recipients. Practically everyone had been admitted to the University of Michigan. A lot of top students had also applied to Wash U, Northwestern, and the Univ. of Chicago. A friend of S’s attended Harvey Mudd, and friends of D’s went to Purdue and Berkeley. So it’s not like people disdain schools in other regions. What we do tend to do is disdain our mediocre state schools, which folks in states with strong state schools perceive as snobbishness or an Ivy- or-bust mentality. We are looking for a quality education which we don’t feel can be had at State U. It just so happens that there are plenty of Ivies and other ranked schools in our region, so people conflate our affection for them as provincialism. </p>
<p>^^Right. If you live in the NE, there are great schools close to home. The reason to look out of locale would be specific programs, scholarship opportunities, the opportunity to live in a different place. Maybe if there is too much competition at your school for HYP, you have a better shot (because of geography) of getting into Chicago, Duke, WashU, Vandy.</p>
<p>When I lived in the NE, my kids at NE schools brought friends home for school breaks from the midwest, the west coast, Asia, Europe. I am sure the experience would have been the same at Chicago, Duke, WashU, Vandy - but they didn’t have to travel to get that experience. </p>
<p>Recruiting is not just mailings. When you have a significantly inferior FA program, you are not only excluding many possible candidates from other regions but also many in your region. I think high COA could actually be effective in increasing OOS students in this case because you are targeting a richer population who care about the prestige of colleges and who have the means to attend, those that happen to be abundant in NE. (And to address @alh’s comment directly, last time I checked merit based scholarships are very limited in these colleges except maybe Vandy. I don’t think it can be more effective than a robust FA program like HYP have.)</p>
<p>@PG: Well, I know Wisconsin and Illinois are “better” schools than Penn State and UMass, but if you say that’s enough reason for Midwesterners to stay home and feel like they are attending elite colleges, there you have your answer.</p>