Buying a French Horn

College Majors Music Major
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<p>Hello, music forum people. I have a question that I've done a forum search on without any luck.</p>

<p>Tallson (my high school-aged son) has been playing trumpet for five years, guitar for three -- rock, jazz and blues -- and took up French horn last year. Through a series of fortunate events he already has four pretty good guitars, so that's not an issue. He also has a decent Bach trumpet that he plays in his high school jazz combo, and the promise of inheriting his grandfather's Chicago Benge some day. (That is to say, his grandfather may hand down the Benge, not that grandpa is dying any time soon.)</p>

<p>It turns out, though, that he's a pretty good French horn player and his high school band teacher thinks he could play at the college level. Of course, this is the only one of his instruments that he doesn't own. He plays a school instrument, which his teacher has said is more or less his until he graduates. At least it's a problem we don't have to solve for a couple of years.</p>

<p>There's lots of stuff on the Web about trumpets, and the world is awash in guitars, but when you ask about how to choose a French horn you can practically hear the crickets start chirping. Any advice on the French horn purchase process? I mean, besides "bring LOTS of money?"</p>

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<p>check out thefrenchhorn.net There are lots of links and lots of information about horns.</p>

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<p>Send a PM to Binx. Her son is a French horn player.</p>

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<p>Oh goodie, I get to talk about horns.</p>

<p>John Ericson has a very informative website, including tips for beginning horn players. (Horn players seldom call it a "french" horn when talking among themselves. They don't acknowledge any other kind of horn -- especially sax. :) )</p>

<p>Horn</a> Articles Online
Getting</a> Started on the Horn</p>

<p>We've been through a few horns at our house. First two horns were school horns (simultaneous - one left at school, one left at home for practice). They were Holtons, which is a pretty common school horn brand.</p>

<p>First horn we bought was a Yamaha 668D that we ordered from woodwindbrasswind.com. WWBW does a good job, is cheaper than most places selling new horns. I think we paid around $2500 for it.</p>

<p>S2 tried various horns at a music store first, to see what he liked (and his teacher did as well, and they compared notes), then we ordered it from wwbw online. But horns are individual, and the one we got had some problems with it. So we sent it back to be fixed, got it returned to us smashed. While UPS and Yamaha argued over who's fault it was, Yamaha sent S2 a new one. </p>

<p>He played that for 3 years (8th-10th), then bought a used Lawson via hornplayer.net (best place to find used horns.) Can't remember what we paid - $4-5k, I think. The Lawson got him into Juilliard. Sophomore year of college, he bought a Conn from his teacher. ($3500) The Conn lasted until this winter when it "died." Horns, unlike violins, do NOT get better with advanced age. The Conn was over 50 years old, and just didn't work as well anymore. </p>

<p>S2 is currently in China with his Lawson (which he kept for back-up, fortunately). Meanwhile, we have here an Engelbert Schmid on spec (nearly $10k), waiting for him to finish testing it when he returns from China. (Also located via hornplayer.net.)</p>

<p>Some real basics: since tallson is considering playing it in college, get a double horn. Singles are mostly used by middleschooler beginners.</p>

<p>The "D" in the Yamaha 668D stands for detachable bell. (aka "cut bell" or "screw bell" - opposite of "fixed bell" which does not come off the horn.) Jury is out on which is "better" or if it makes a difference in sound. But the detachable bell fits in a smaller case that can be carried on airplanes (usually) etc. Aside from the fixed bell horns S2 used at school, he has only had cut bells.</p>

<p>Do NOT buy a horn on ebay - there are many scams involving horns on ebay - not sure of the details, but it involves cheaply made horns (China?) being sold as something different. I think they usually offer them around $500. NOT a deal! Worth nothing.</p>

<p>Horns come in yellow brass, rose brass (a pinkish color), and nickel silver. Slightly different sounds - go with what you like. </p>

<p>Here's another good site - check out the list of links under "equipment" - she addresses what things to look for:
[url=<a href="http://juliashornpage.com/topics.html%5DFAQ%5B/url"&gt;http://juliashornpage.com/topics.html]FAQ[/url&lt;/a&gt;]&lt;/p>

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<p>Binx...I LOVED that comment!!!</p>

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<p>Oops... ha ha ... um, yeah, I meant to say that. ;)</p>

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<p>Thanks Binx!! D is looking to get another Horn this summer. She currently has a mid-level Holton Double Horn H378 which we bought her new in 6th grade from WWBW. She now is looking at a Silver Model Conn 8D through them. She is unsure if she really wants the detachable bell though, she is very clumsy and is worried she will harm the Horn in some way. I told her that she will be happy to have the backpack gig bag and a Horn that breaks down for traveling overseas. She is still waffling but we definitely want her to get the Horn soon so she can work with it all summer before going to school. We are definitely music store poor in our area. I have a friend who has to buy her D a new flute and they are going to NYC to look. The college she is going to (what I would say is not even a well known music school) is requiring this and told her to plan on spending at least $8k-$10k on a new flute. My friend cannot believe that no one at any schools D was accepted to even suggested a new horn for her as everywhere they went she was told her D had to get a new flute. Funny thing is that my friend just bought a new flute for her D about 3 years ago and spent about $4K then. I had no idea flutes were so much!!</p>

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<p>Momof3Stars, certain teachers seem to enjoy messing with their students' equipment. If your D gets one of these kinds of teachers, expect along the way to be encouraged to buy a new kind of horn, a new mouthpiece, new pieces for the horn, or whatever. This happens often. It doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't say so upon admission - They want to work with the student a bit more, and see where the natural strengths are, what sort of "help" you need from the horn, etc. What things are your fault, and what things are the horn's fault.</p>

<p>My S tends to worship his teachers, so when a teacher tells him he needs something different, he is all set to switch! Over the years, though, he has learned to evaluate such suggestions as to what merit they might have for him personally. He has had the advantage of lessons from a variety of teachers, and has learned that there is much personal opinion involved. He has had to learn to negotiate between opposing views, without making anyone mad. </p>

<p>This go-round, he thought he wanted a Kuhn. He had tried several, and liked them. But one of his teachers does not like Kuhns, and recommended he go back to Lawsons. We watched him waffle, trying to remind him of the opinions he'd had last week or last month.... Finally he hit upon the E. Schmid (as opposed to another kind of horn called Schmidt!) He liked them when he played them, and all his teachers seemed to approve of them. I am hoping he will like the one he has on spec, and we can be done with this!</p>

<p>He did learn along the way that the newer Conns are not consistently as good as the originals were, but the originals (like my S2's) are getting old and dying. So some orchestras are beginning to move away from Conns. Many of the Conn players are moving to E. Schmids because they have the same full sound and air movement. (Conns were famous for their "New York Sound.")</p>

<p>(I'm trying to repeat, as best I can, what I have picked up along the way, but may not have all the details right.)</p>

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<p>A musician's instrument is his/her best friend. They live, breathe, travel, even sleep with it. So it is not unusual to have a teacher or friend absolutely believe that the brand of instrument they use is the best. Some will play only one brand. (And if you think it's bad for brass/string players, it's just as bad for reed players and you have the question of reeds on top of that!) You have to take those comments to get a new instrument with a grain of salt sometimes.</p>

<p>I'll second buying from wwbw. We bought S2's first intermediate sax mail order through them. For the professional sax he plays now, we drove there (South Bend, IN) and to another place in Chicago, and he tried out about a dozen new & vintage "horns" (as sax players refer to them, too) and picked the one that was clearly superior to the rest (even to M & D's amateur ears).</p>

<p>Since then we've also bought him a high intermediate-level flute (High end ones are sterling silver or gold--partly explains the cost) mail order which he is happy with. Just this spring, we got a great deal on a closeout of a professional model clarinet (1/3 the regular price). Since these were doubling instruments for him, we weren't as concerned.</p>

<p>WWBW often has really great deals. As you explore the brand/model of horn to buy, If you're not in a hurry, sign up for their e-mailing list and watch for sales. They often have them around the holidays, too.</p>

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<p>They are running a pretty good deal now on the one she wants (I said 6D it is actually an 8D) but now methinks maybe wait for the Professor. Luckily she is going to a State school and he has seen her aid package (for a different reason) so he knows we are not made of money. D is ok with her Holton but has yearned for while for the sound of a silver horn, we saw many auditioning with silver for some reason. I am leery of buying used only bc we have such limited knowledge of what to look for. I am definitely thinking of postponing any decision until we go to Fredonia for summer orientation and maybe can stop in Buffalo or Rochester at a decent music store. (Suggestions?)</p>

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<p>I understand the desire for a new horn, but I think it's a great idea to wait till she gets there. If she buys a nickel silver Conn 8D, and find out the rest of the studio plays yellow brass Lawsons because the teacher prefers that sound, she may find herself fighting for decent audition results, etc, the next four years. (I don't think that will happen - In New York, Conns are still preferred over Lawsons. I just throw that out as an example.) </p>

<p>If she can't wait, perhaps she can email her new teacher, and ask for opinions or advice.</p>

<p>You will find the horn world gets smaller as your D gets older. Chances are good that someone (teacher or classmate) will know someone else selling exactly the horn your D wants. I don't know any shops in Buffalo or Rochester. If you find yourselves in Boston, however -- check out Osmun or Ken Pope.</p>

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<p>I have heard of Ken Pope!! One of the Horn players in the summer band that D plays in only takes his Horn out there to be serviced (He is a Doctor w/ an ancient detachable Bell horn) by Ken Pope. I will have D email the professor, I think that would be a good idea.</p>

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<p>I would second the vote to wait to talk to the teacher. There are 'styles' of horn sound. Generally, someone who prefers a Holton sound will not prefer a Conn sound. You really do not want to have to do this again soon! You could contact the teacher, who may be willing to talk horn models before September.</p>

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<p>Momof3stars - we went through this last year because there was no way D could audition on one of the school horns or on her aging Lorenzo Sansone. We went to Music and Arts near Rochester where she played a Conn (6 or 8, I don't remember) and the Yamaha 668N (nickel) which we ultimately bought. We took her horn teacher along, were there forever, and relied on her teacher for picking the one that sounded right, with input from D as to whether it felt easy enough to play. It was the only place in the Rochester, Buffalo area that had horns we could try out. They also seemed able to get them if they didn't already have them, so you could try them.</p>

<p>No place that we auditioned said anything about the horn - good or bad, except for one commenting on the mouthpiece she had (said it was an uncommon one for a high school player). Good luck!</p>

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<p>I wonder, is ebay a good place to look for a french horn? I found a used double horn for $300-400.</p>

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<p>My wife collects certain kinds of instruments and we keep an eye on Ebay but do not frequently buy through them. As someone who has occasionally taken a chance on an instrument through that service, you should be aware that you are doing just that - taking a chance. You may get a bargain, or you might wind up with something so abused or neglected that it has little musical use without spending more on repairs than the instrument is worth.</p>

<p>If you buy from a reputable dealer via Ebay, chances are that the written description will bear a passing resemblance to the instrument that is being sold, but you are less likely to get a real bargain because that kind of seller knows exactly what the instrument is worth. If you get a seller who does not know what the instrument is worth, chances are good that they will not be able to describe the condition of the instrument accurately enough for you to make a decision sight unseen. Personally, I will only purchase from a store that has excellent feedback AND will accept returns without a big restocking fee, or else from someone who is close enough that I can try out the instrument before bidding.</p>

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<p>OK, D has emailed the professor and is now looking at a Hans Hoyer she found online. Hopefully I can find a dealer where she can go and try one out depending on what the prof says ofc.</p>

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<p>Astrophysics - see my post #4 - do NOT buy an ebay horn. You might want to look up the yahoo horn blog (I'd post the link, but it's against CC terms) and see what folks say there about ebay. (But I can tell you now - they will say don't.) </p>

<p>It is very common for horn players to buy horns via the Internet - hornplayer.net and the IHS website are two common places. It generally works that you find a horn you like, exchange contact info, and agree on terms. The terms are usually that you send a check that covers the cost. Seller ships horn to you for trial. Seller cashes check, and writes one back to you if you return the horn. You pay return shipping (pack it well and insure it!) </p>

<p>It is a scary process - writing a check to someone you don't know. Them sending a horn to someone they don't know. Which is why folks prefer to buy/sell to names they recognize - and have lots of contact in advance.</p>

<p>We have done this several times, and it was hard the first time. We actually drove to Florida to pick up the horn the first time (the Lawson) to avoid shipping mishaps and to meet the seller in person and establish legitimacy. Other times, it has been with people who's names we knew (but they were taking a risk). The key is to do it through the established websites, or with reputable horn stores (like Osmun). It is normal to try a horn for a few weeks. (But at regular online stores - like woodwindbrasswind - they expect you to buy it outright.)</p>

<p>Momof3Stars - S2 considered Hans Hoyer for awhile. We've heard lots of good things about them. S2's first teacher is planning to buy one. And S2's Juilliard teacher (the one who died) helped design one of them. When we lived in Germany, we took S2 to tour the factory. We were treated like royalty. Then he went to Munich and spent the day testing them, but ultimately couldn't find one he was thrilled with.</p>

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<p>Binx, that is good to hear about the Hans Hoyer. D is interested in that make mainly bc of the ball bearing mechanism (I have seen a pic but am on the outside looking in). She says her Holton strings are always causing problems for her and she has a sticky key. I blame the people we chose to service her horn the first few years, I don't think they did everything we asked or knew what they were doing as it never came back any better in this respect. Live and learn.</p>

<p>Also, she said it looks to her like the Hans Hoyer would be more suited to her small hands. Any opinions on that? She did remember she has borrowed her friends Conn 8D in the past and she said the neck is longer on that than on her Holton which she found awkward. Poor kid, stubby arms AND stubby fingers!!</p>

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<p>Thanks for the help, everyone. Appreciate it.</p>