C will be the lowest grade in CA

Yes, the approach does talk about different ways of handling the mastery of the material vs. non-material items. One option is to not tracking it at all and just deal with disruptions etc. as they happen. Another option is to track it but assign it no weight. I tend to lean in this direction since tracking it can be very helpful when a parent asks why their child is not doing well in class. The behavior, attendance, not choosing to do re-takes, etc. is easier to explain when the information is tracked but not included in the grade. Most grade tracking software allows teachers to weight categories, so assigning a value of 0 to these items is possible.

My kids’ high school does a variation of this that’s actually mentioned in GfE: There is a separate “grade” called citizenship. Though, the way the HS does it, it’s still a subjective grade that could include different things per teacher. It can also be used to take away extracurricular privileges, so I’m not actually a fan of how our HS implements the idea.

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Whether this is a good policy or not, it seems certain to me that it’s going to have the following effects:

  1. The average GPA of these schools will be more inflated as D’s and F’s won’t be included in the GPA calculation as before.

  2. The average number of years to graduate will be extended at these schools as more students repeat classes. Their school districts will have to bear the higher cost.

I agree with your first point but I bet schools will push most on through. I do not think there will be more not graduating.

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My second point is that it will take some of these students longer to graduate, not that they necessarily won’t graduate.

Right, I should have added “on time” to my comment.

I do not think that is going to happen as there is too much pressure to get kids through HS. Perhaps your point is correct in that it might cost schools a bit more money as they might develop after school or some other sort of programs to ensure they do graduate on time.

I am coming to this thread late but interestingly enough have had something happen in my son’s freshman math class that is relatable to the discussion. Last week more than half of his math class was pulled out of the room to be told they are at risk for not passing first semester. Those pulled out currently have d’s and f’s. I am convinced these kids are behind because of loss of learning the last 18 months as the teacher has never had this happen in her class before, 20 years she’s taught this class at this school.

The principal has reached out to all the parents/guardians of these students to let them know they are implementing a success plan to try and get them up to speed and to also help them pass the class. It is unclear at this time how the teacher will will help those kids catch up while also moving forward with the kids that are doing well.

I feel bad for the students who are struggling and I feel bad for the students who are not advancing at the normal rate for the math class next year.

It’s a mess.

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It seems that a no 0 policy could be quite useful. Also, I do not think it would be bad to let them retest or put more weight to the final exam. The goal should be they learn the material and if they could make a C on the final, let that be their grade for the semester. I imagine it would be incredibly difficult for most of the kids that have Ds and Fs to catch up enough to get a C though.

Perhaps these kids should not have been in this class to start with? Presumably the teacher has been notifying the kids all along? My son has had a few classes in which the teacher does not grade anything and while you think you are doing pretty well, you have no idea as the grades are not posted. Hopefully the kids will learn the material!

I have no problem at all doing anything necessary to help these kids pass this class. The semester is not over till the end of January so I think there is some valuable time here. Yes there has been prior communication about the kids who have been at risk for not passing. The teacher is really striving for mastery here. This is the entry level math class for 9th grade, no where else to place these kids.

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Would it somehow be problematic if more kids on the margin were sufficiently mastering the material so as to deserve Cs and above? Because that sounds like a good thing to me.

Also, were this to happen, then I am not sure this would constitute “grade inflation” as the phrase is usually used, because that implies the grades are being raised regardless of the level of mastery.

I’m not so sure. It seems that one of the goals of this plan is to prevent kids from digging a hole for themselves that is impossible to escape, and requiring students to “master the material” before moving them along to the next level may greatly enhance their ability to succeed at that next level. For example, if a student goes off track at the introductory level but is nonetheless moved on because of factors and pressures unrelated to mastery, then that student is set up for failure at the next level, and the next, etc. On the other hand, if the kid doesn’t move on until they have mastered the material, they may lose some time initially, but be better equipped to master the more advanced material.

Also, even it it did take a bit longer, is that necessarily a bad thing. Which policy makes more sense . . . A policy where more kids finish on schedule but with no mastery, or a policy where some kids take a but longer but actually learn something?

I’d agree that making students who failed to perform satisfactorily in a class to repeat it isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Considering how bad K-12 education is in parts of the country (Oakland included), it’s a costly undertaking. However, I’m not even sure that’s the purpose of the new grading policy. After all, a school can always make a student who failed a core class for graduation to retake it before this new policy.

Are you saying that Mathematical abilities are the only measure on intelligence?

Huh.

Please provide research that supports this blanket claim. The evidence regarding the massive changes in the brain of adolescents suggests otherwise.

Anybody who has ever raised a child should know that a kid at 15 is very different then they are as an adult.

Citations (other than Murray’s questionable claims) for this. Extensive research also disproves this claim.

“Medical care”

“food”

https://bestpractices.nokidhungry.org/sites/default/files/2020-02/Rural%20Food%20Insecurity%20Qualitative%20Research%20Brief.pdf

I could go on, but the idea that rural areas have more jobs, more food, and better healthcare than urban areas is 100% false.

However, it seems that the people who are the ones claiming to be able to decide who these kids are, somehow happen to be people who pay lots of money to give their kids all sorts of academic support.

Somehow, people who spend tens to hundreds of thousands, supposedly helping their kids academic and mental development, continue to claim that money cannot help the academic and mental development of OTHER kids.

Somehow, wealthy and middle class people who think that “high school isn’t for everybody” never consider that their kids are in that category. If their kid start failing classes, they spend a LOT of money to make sure that their kids manage not only to finish high school, but to even attend college.

But of course, if a kid has parents who cannot afford those services, that kid should not even be in high school…

Red Herring.

The program is clearly NOT about allowing everybody to pass, but allowing students to repeat a class until they pass, and not proceeding to more advanced material until they pass. If they never pass the class, the class will not be on their transcript. Of course, we could always go with forcing the kid to drop out of school after they fail the first time, or give them an F, so that, even if they get their act together, their chances of attending college, or even graduate high school drop substantially.

I have worked in advocacy for providing gifted kids with support, and still do, so please, I would appreciate it if people stop making comments like this, which are both ignorant and insulting.

It is wealthy parents who think that their kid is gifted, even when they are not, who are the problem, NOT people who just want their kid to finish high school with a basic education. Poor families are very unlikely to push the school to provide gifted services for their kid. In fact, they will often refuse to allow their gifted kids to join gifted programs for various reasons.

PS. I am not against providing alternatives for college, including high school education in the professions. However, that is only equitable if poor kids get the same elementary education as wealthy kids, and that the decision takes other things into consideration, instead of there being a huge disparity in the education and services offered to the poor and to the wealthy, like there is in the USA.

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I’m not sure that requiring students to repeat entire classes is the goal here. I think the idea, as explained by @s318830, is that kids will be less likely to give up during the year if they have a route to get out from under a missed assignment, late homework, or a bad grade on a first test, etc. And maybe I have it wrong, but an “Incomplete” doesn’t signify to me that the entire class need be repeated the next year, but rather the students needs to finish up the work before credit is given.

Not sure how this works. but it is easy to imagine structuring summer school (already part of the lives of many struggling students) as a period to continue to work toward mastery of the material from before.

[quote=“MWolf, post:74, topic:3596769”]

Are you saying that Mathematical abilities are the only measure on intelligence?

Huh.

Please provide research that supports this blanket claim. The evidence regarding the massive changes in the brain of adolescents suggests otherwise.

Anybody who has ever raised a child should know that a kid at 15 is very different then they are as an adult.

Citations (other than Murray’s questionable claims) for this. Extensive research also disproves this claim.

“Medical care”

“food”

https://bestpractices.nokidhungry.org/sites/default/files/2020-02/Rural%20Food%20Insecurity%20Qualitative%20Research%20Brief.pdf

I could go on, but the idea that rural areas have more jobs, more food, and better healthcare than urban areas is 100% false.

However, it seems that the people who are the ones claiming to be able to decide who these kids are, somehow happen to be people who pay lots of money to give their kids all sorts of academic support.

Somehow, people who spend tens to hundreds of thousands, supposedly helping their kids academic and mental development, continue to claim that money cannot help the academic and mental development of OTHER kids.

Somehow, wealthy and middle class people who think that “high school isn’t for everybody” never consider that their kids are in that category. If their kid start failing classes, they spend a LOT of money to make sure that their kids manage not only to finish high school, but to even attend college.

But of course, if a kid has parents who cannot afford those services, that kid should not even be in high school…

Intelligence is generally broken down into three categories: verbal, spatial, and mathematical. There are many people who can hack the first and not the latter two, whereas the number of math PhDs who could not successfully complete a graduate level humanities program is incredibly slim.

I said large cities, not a general urban-rural divide. People making 200k in Manhattan struggle to afford a house, medical care, and nutritious food even without student debt. The big law associates I worked with had a tough lot years ago and it has only gotten worse in places like there, Boston, and Los Angeles. Family formation is even more unobtainable. Move to Cincinnati or Tampa, not the Bay Area or Dallas.

Districts commonly considered poor and disadvantaged spend more per pupil than their suburban and rural counterparts. They are considered a trough for pensions and paid suspensions for teacher misconduct. I never sent my children to them, although I had big law colleagues and affluent neighbors who did as a sort of social experiment/flex. I have zero interest in reforming them, most of the students and their parents don’t either. I have had many, many networking calls for prospective lawyers before they attended law school. My advice was always either go into business for yourself, go into high finance, or get tenure in a low accountability high pay district ideally in physical education.

The notion rich parents are a problem is preposterous. They can take care of themselves and don’t impose negative externalities.

This is accurate. It CAN mean that kids automatically repeat a failed class, but that does already happen. The no F’s can mean that any F is something that is required to be attempted again, thus becoming automatically an incomplete. GfE does recommend mandatory reattempts for failed work rather than allowing the F to stand and compound.

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Yes. This. Now I don’t have to type another lengthy response.

I agree with this definition of grade inflation and why these plans don’t constitute grade inflation even if more kids have passing grades. It’s because more passing grades will indicate an increase in subject knowledge.

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You evidently have not known as many math PhDs as I have.

Actually, that is almost certainly true, since I work in academia, and my wife is a CS professors and leads a research institute, which has a lot of mathematic PhDs. We also know socially a good number of math PhDs.

Almost no Math or CS PhD that I have known can write worth a damn. They cannot do decent textual analysis, they cannot do literary analysis. Their verbal skills are far inferior to those of any humanities professor, and their ability to express themselves is also much poorer.

I also have a large number of friends and colleagues who are professors in the humanities.

BTW, since we are on the topic of “Humanities”, and how they supposedly are bad at math, let me tell you about the field of philosophy.

If a person understands philosophy, they understand math.

Unfortunately, many people seem to be under the illusion that math is the same thing as arithmetic.

My wife, with a PhD in CS from one of the top 5 graduate programs in the country, with over 200 publications in CS, who leads an institute (a large, well funded, and well known one) needs me to check her arithmetic.

So you are pretty wrong in your blanket claim above.

As for your claim that intelligence “broken down into three categories: verbal, spatial, and mathematical.”

Tell me, then, where does the ability to create music fit there?

Where does the ability to play music fit there?

Where does the ability to interact with people, including manipulating people, fit there?

As for “mathematical” - what type? There are multiple fields and many people who are amazing with one, are only mediocre with others.

Where does geometry fit, or trigonometry? Spatial or mathematical?

There are also multiple types of spatial skills, an just because a person is good at one, does not mean that they are good at another.

Of course, none of these so-called “intelligence tests” ever test the most important part - originality. There is no difference in score between a person who is really good at memorizing mathematical facts and procedures, and somebody who is able to reason them all out of the fly. These tests would also fail to find a person who has the ability to formulate a new problem and its solution. The “verbal” tests would fail miserable at separating the genius writer and the person who is just good at understanding what they just read. None of those tests can tell us anything at all about the abilities in most of the sciences.

Bottom line, the only thing that these tests which you rely on actually measure is the ability to do well on those tests. I write this as somebody who aced psychometric tests (that’s what they had when and where I did my undergraduate), and whose kid regularly tests in the top 0.1%.

Bottom line, dividing intelligence into three “parts” is ridiculous, and claiming that all human “intelligence” can be measured that way is ridiculous, and all those do is supply jobs for people who create tests for these things, and an ego boost for those people who join MENSA.

Oh, yes, it is also a good gatekeeper to keep all those pesky uppity lower income people from accessing higher level education, which, should, of course, be exclusively for the wealthy, and those chosen few who are so smart that even their terrible situation isn’t enough to mask their intelligence.

Citations and facts, please.

Wow, I cannot even begin to count the ways in which this is messed up. I am glad that your wrote colleagues and neighbors, not “friends”.

They actually do. What they do not want is some wealthy guy coming in and telling them all of the things that they are doing wrong. Look up the term “White Savior Complex”, though it could also be thought of as “Wealthy Savior Complex”.

Again, do you actually know anybody who is not wealthy who attends on of those schools? How many poor people do you know?

:rofl:

So Varsity Blues was done by poor people, eh? Read what these parents wrote, and you can bet that, for each one of those parents, there are 500 more parents who think the same thing, but who will not behave illegally. They believe that their kid is special, and smart, and deserves to be treated like a gifted kid. When the kid graduates that translates to “deserves to attend an elite college”.

I have dealt with these parents as an instructor, and I have enough high school teacher friends who have dealt with them as well. I also have enough friends whose kids attend schools in high income areas, and they report the same thing. It also came up in discussions of gifted services.

So yes, wealthy entitled parents are a huge problem in every school district which has them.

Most wealthy parents are not entitled, but no parent, and I mean no parent, is as entitled as an entitled wealthy parent.

I can promise you that it ain’t poor parents has are asking teachers “do you know who I AM?”

To be more precise, it ain’t poor people who ask “do you know who I AM?”, and expect the teacher to know who they are.

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Another look at the pros and cons of no zero policies.

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This. :arrow_double_up:

But never mind higher education. He’s wants education to end for many at the age of 12.

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I’ll ask that if @MWolf and @tomtownsend want to continue their debate, that they do so via PM.

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