<p>"... lobby the HS guidance counselor to make sure you aren't risking the "most rigorous curriculum" checkbox."</p>
<p>Or ask if the GC can add a new box "most rigorous curriculum that doesn't include Calculus."</p>
<p>(Sorry Sherpa. I do agree with your suggestions.)</p>
<p>Calculus in used extensively in engineering, other sciences, and finance.</p>
<p>If that is not the direction your daughter is likely to take, then I do not think there is much life applicable utility to staying in it.</p>
<p>Statistics, and Probability, on the other hand, are extremely useful mathematical tools in almost every area of study and life. It is a shame that Calculus is so focused upon, and the really useful and practical fields of statistics and probabilbity are wave of the hand afterthoughts.</p>
<p>How backward that is!</p>
<p>I also feel that a basic course in economics, which leads to a good understanding of supply and demand, ought to be a required course in high schools. Think about the popular majors in college: Econ, Soc, Psych, English, History -- of these, why are English and History the only ones emphasized in high school? Strange, isn't it?</p>
<p>MommaJ - I faced a similar dilemma last year. Even with a fantastic tutor, D barely squeaked through Functions (her school's name for non-honors Pre-Cal; they use the same textbook but don't cover as much) with C's both semesters. She was in a gifted middle school program where everyone was expected to take Algebra I in 6th or 7th grade (she did in 7th) and in retrospect she was accellerated too fast, but two years of high school math she had in middle school are showing up on her transcript. So with Algebra II in 9th grade and Functions last year, she has her 4 years of math. The past two years the tears and frustration were constant. It took her longer to get through her Functions homework than everything else combined, including two AP classes, and many times she could not do the work until she had time with the tutor (usually 3-4 hours a week). </p>
<p>Make a long story short, I had her tested by a private psychologist, found out that D has a nonverbal learning disability, and we decided follow the psychologist's recommendation to let her go mathless junior and senior year. The summer before she goes to college, she'll take whatever math class she tests into at the local community college. She's going to take the minimum math needed for college, and since she's looking at majoring in nursing, psychology, or a foreign language, that won't be much. I tried to talk her into taking Statistics, but D now has so much mathphobia that she absolutely refused, and there's no other math she could take.</p>
<p>The dilemma was that she loses whether she takes more more math, which will lower her GPA, which does not look good, or no more math, which also does not look good. This decision is going to cost her the "most rigorous" curriculum. However, she's taking two foreign languages at her high school, a third (Arabic) at the local college, and 3 AP's. So far she's happy. </p>
<p>Spbball5 - thanks for posting your experiences. I wonder if I did the right thing by letting D focus on her strengths instead of taking more math. It's great to know that not taking Calculus worked out so well for you.</p>
<p>Similarly, S1 insisted on quitting French after sophomore year and French III. We all knew he would pursue engineering and while he got A's in French, he did not enjoy it and wanted to fill his 11th & 12th grade schedules with other electives. Luckily none of the schools he ended up applying to required any more language than that, but he was aware of the risk and it worked out just fine for him.</p>
<p>
[quote]
In the end, rather than give D a less than stellar grade the teacher gave her a "pass" for her final semester. No letter grade. By this time the college acceptance was well in the bag and the college didn't question it. Probably not ideal. Due to D's over the top athletic schedule, community college wasn't an option and we didn't think of on-line. A number of our local students "seek" their math credits outside of our high school at "private" locations. To my mind it's the parents buying a good grade - an awful practice that even I considered for a few days. Big $$$$. That's what a shambles the local math program has become. Grade point averages at this school are quite skewed because of this practice.
[/quote]
But isn't your school's practice of putting a P (Pass) instead of a letter grade also skewing GPAs? Does anyone get a bad grade, if all bad passing grades can be turned into Ps?</p>
<p>Excellent point - you are right. I also know that a "P" instead of a letter grade is almost unheard of at this school, definitely not a school practice at all and out of character for this particular teacher. My D didn't request this and was surprised (and probably relieved) when that is how it played out. The teacher in question is very familiar with my D and her older sibling and knows how hard both had worked and at times struggled with inconsistent math teachers. I really can't say enough about how bad the program was (and to a lesser degree still is) - the school was absolutely committed to the integrated system long after it was apparent that it wasn't really serving the needs of the students. The math department has been a revolving door with a number of teachers leaving each year.</p>
<p>I tried on a couple of occasions to get hard numbers on how many students were receiving their math credits and grades off campus but no one could/would give me that information. It did lead to quite a little boom in small private "academies" in our community. They finally ditched the integrated system and have gone back to traditional math classes. I'm curious to see how this impacts those same little academies - assuming we can finally keep more than a couple of decent math teachers!</p>
<p>^ Interesting that your school has had such a bad experience with the integrated system. Mine uses Integrated Math as well, and it's a major part of allowing even those coming from crappy middle schools to accelerate and take calculus in high school if they wish. If they don't, they can also elect statistics (honors and AP) or discrete math. (Granted, this is a math/science charter magnet.)</p>
<p>My point with regard to her college choices is not to give up on elite colleges, but to focus on those for which intensive math preparation is not a requirement (either for entrance - because you're wasting your time, or for graduation - because she'll be set up for failure).</p>
<p>Yes, that will remove some top schools.</p>
<p>Our HS used the integrated math and if you were there the entire time you ended up on AP calc well-prepared, it is going in and out of the two systems that is incredibly challanging</p>
<p>OP- Maybe she can take statistics next semester at community college.</p>
<p>Does Avoiding AP Calculus Really Hurt Admissions' Chances?</p>
<p>DD has a 3.72 unweighted GPA at a top Fairfax County, VA, high school. She is considering whether to take AP Calculus AB in senior year along with AP Economics Macro/Micro and AP English Literature and Anatomy and Physiology. She has already taken 3 AP classes and received all Bs. She is now taking PreCalculus and receiving a borderline A but does not really like mathematics and had a difficult time sophomore year in Algebra II. Should she consider not taking AP Calculus and instead take regular probability and statistics or AP Computer Science? Will this reflect badly on her prospects at more selective colleges?</p>
<p>FWIW-Here is our combined experience from S and D who are now freshman at top 50 LAC. D did take Honor Calc ( from AP Calc book -same curriculum, same teacher) and so finished with 4 years of math-all at honors level. We did go against public school guidance counselor's advice in seventh grade when school wanted her to take Advanced Alg. I as an 8th Grader. We chose the advanced-not the super advanced route. When she graduated from HS she had completed 7 AP courses, the remainder of course load at the honors level, 6 years of foreign language, etc. and very competiitive SAT scores. Weighted GAP 4.49, UW, 3.8. Twin brother finished with Honors Pre-Calc., same number of AP Courses, mostly honors, 6 years of foreign language, Weighted GPA of 4.39 UW, 3.7 and very competitive SAT scores. </p>
<p>When we were visiting colleges, D had serious interest in Wake, W and L and W and M. I called Admissions in each one to get an opinion on the importance of Calculus in admissions process. As I remember, Both Wake and W and M felt that it was important, but said that not having Calculus would not prohibit admission. NB: These calls were made in 2006-2007. At W and L, the website use to address what an admissions cojnselor related in a phone call: that students are admitted without Calculus and there is freshman math class for students who did not complete calculus in high school.</p>
<p>D took honors precalc senior year. She applied to 10 colleges and has been accepted at 8 - waiting on 2 others. She received the highest level of merit aid at all but one of the colleges. (Notre Dame doesn't give merit aid, and she received merit aid - but not the highest level at another school.) She plans to go into engineering or a science. </p>
<p>When the lack of calculus was mentioned (and it wasn't mentioned mostly), it was suggested that she take it at the community college level during the summer and take in again in the fall - in order to be sure that she has a solid base.</p>
<p>Friend in same honors precalc class was admitted to Rice U (EA) - science major. She too plans to take calc in the summer at a community college. (I don't if it was suggested the friend do so - or she just decided on her own to do so.)</p>
<p>D had no interest in the ivies, but ND EA is competitive as is Rice - so lack of calc does not preclude acceptance in and of itself.</p>
<p>My oldest D took precalc junior year in prep school- one semester of stats senior year. ( private school makes a difference, even with no AP classes- she has a disability that affects math skills- the public school teaches * integrated* which doesn't even cover long division :rolleyes: )</p>
<p>took a year off before college- no math- retook precalc at a community college, then felt more prepared for calculus at her LAC ( which does things the hard way, just so they can say they did).</p>
<p>I think it depends on the type of school, your intended major, and what you choose instead of the math class. Calculus is required for science majors, pre-med and economics, so it makes sense to take it in high school if you've followed an accelerated math track and are interested in these fields. </p>
<p>My eldest D is at a top 25 LAC with no math senior year (stopped after completing honors precalc in junior year--8th grade Algebra I was also listed on her transcript as a 4th math credit). Since she was in the accelerated and honors track for both math and science, despite a lack of interest in either, I just urged her to at least take one AP in math or science her senior year (she ironically chose AP Physics B because of the outstanding teacher). Her "replacement" class for not taking Calculus was a year-long Honors Humanities sequence in the English department, focusing on World Religions and Philosophy; this was taken in addition to AP English Language and Literature. She also had foreign language all 4 years. Her college major doesn't require any math, but she will fulfill her Gen Ed quantitative requirement by a Statistics course required for her Psychology minor.</p>