<p>I posted previously about whether my senior DD should follow her guidance counselor's recommendation and take non-honors Calculus, though, given her pre-calc experience, it would likely result in a "C" and lower her GPA. Well, a mere 3 days into the year, she's already having difficulty, and I see the misery ahead. Five years ago her brother stopped after pre-Calc (same guidance counselor) and had no problem getting into a very selective university. The counselor thinks 4 years of math is now imperative. DD's schedule won't allow her to take Statistics as an alternative, so the choice is Calculus or no math at all. Do most very selective colleges (we're not talking most selective here) expect four years of math, through Calculus, especially from a humanities "type"? This seems to be such a pointless exercise for her--she'll get nothing out of it but frustration and a low grade. I'm a golden oldie, and my high school didn't even offer either pre-Calc or Calc--I opted out of Trig, the highest level math class offered, took something called "Senior Math" and never looked back---so this is all quite perplexing to me.</p>
<p>D2 is a HS junior but has also gone back and forth regarding whether to take Calc. during senior year. She's also planning to pursue a Humanities-related major in college. She looked up, using a combination of the Princeton Review guide and some of the websites of schools that she's interested and discovered that, indeed, most of the selective (though not Ivy league) schools do seem to at least <em>prefer</em> applicant with four years of math classes. Has your D researched the required/recommended academic courses for the colleges that she's interested in? Perhaps the GC is making that recommendation due to the intensified admissions competition, which is due, in turn, to higher number of students in this year's graduating class compared to those of even just a few years ago...?</p>
<p>BTW, I strongly relate to your own apprehension about the math curriculum: I'm not remotely math oriented and never went beyond Trigonometry in HS, and struggled miserably through one semester of Pre-Calc. in college. </p>
<p>Best of luck to your D whatever she decides to with the class.</p>
<p>Good question. It's true, I think, that the most competitive schools want to see four years of math through calculus these days. However, they also have little tolerance for lower grades considering the level of competition among applicants. I understand the dilemma. It may vary from school to school, but my experience is that admissions offices and scholarship committees are more forgiving towards those with exceptional grades even if the curriculum is slightly weaker. They say they recognize those who take on the toughest curriculum, and I think they do. However, if the student has a relatively solid preparatory academic background, I think the grades carry a bit more weight and I would err in that direction. </p>
<p>I have seen students with more rigorous academic backgrounds and only a single C, in a single semester, get passed over in favor of students with less rigorous academic work (albeit, not necessarily easy), but having no C grades. </p>
<p>Like I said though, it varies by school. Many competitive schools, especially Liberal Arts, may require the completion of a math requirement when they offer nothing lower than calculus. Admissions reps at those type of schools will want to be confident the students they admit can handle that requirement. Thus, they would obviously prefer students who have had demonstrated success at that level. </p>
<p>Before dopping the class make sure you have explored all the options for tutoring and assistance. If she can realistically achieve a B (and assuming her other qualifications are solid), she will have more options among the universe of competitive schools. However, if you are certain she will not perform well - it sounds as if you are -- I agree there is no point to inviting a year of misery, and the low grades will still work against her. </p>
<p>That said, you will have to do a thorough job of aligning her background with the specific schools to which she is applying. Make sure you understand their math requirements and the extent to which admissions are seeking four years of math. She may have to narrow the field a bit as a result, but there will still be plenty of very good choices.</p>
<p>She hasn't pinned down her choices yet (I know, I know), so I was just trying to get a general idea. I wish I knew what it means when a college "prefers" something--it's so wishy washy. I'd "prefer" to avoid the tears, the complaints, the cost of tutoring that will ultimately help only a little, and the crowning achievement of a lousy grade!</p>
<p>Since she hasn't pinned down anything yet and is not set on a specific school, this is a perfect time to set the parameters and shape expectations matching the qualifications she expects to present in her applications. This might mitigate some later frustrations.</p>
<p>A suggestion or two from someone who liked humanities and math back in the day. </p>
<p>Assuming you buy into the 4 years of math.....
1. if there is a local junior college, see what math courses are available there. Maybe she can take statistics at the jc
2. Throw out the defeatist attitude and hunker down to what will work for her to complete the course to the best of her ability. I would love to hear just one time someone saying that taking AP English was a pointless exercise as they weren't going to be writing essays later in life. Each course offers something; it just may not be obvious. </p>
<p>If it is just absolutely too painful, then have her take only the 3 years of math and accept the possible impact to her college choices.</p>
<p>good luck.</p>
<p>Would tutoring be a possibility?</p>
<p>I think that sometimes students have difficulty with calculus because they are a bit foggy on some of the prerequisite skills. Working one on one with a tutor could help to solve those sorts of problems.</p>
<p>One other point: If this course -- whether honors or non-honors -- includes both differential and integral calculus (i.e., what's on the AP BC Calculus test), it is going to get more difficult as the year goes on. Most kids will tell you that integral calculus, which is taught after differential calculus, is much more challenging. If the course includes only differential calculus (what's on the AP AB Calculus test), the level of difficulty will probably not change much during the year.</p>
<p>MommaJ, we are having a similar issue here...check your PMs!</p>
<p>Keep in mind that her older brother's experience a couple years previous may not apply to your D. We're in the same situation here (not with the math question) where oldest S is 6 years older. I look to his experiences with college admission, but know that in 6 years, and with a D rather than a S applying to LACs, we can't assume the same outcomes. There are more girls than boys applying to college. What worked for your son in the past may not garner the same results for your D this admissions season.</p>
<p>I always fall back on the "if she can't get in with her record, she wouldn't want to be there" line of reasoning. If your D is truly struggling and unable to get the math material, why would she want to attend a school where math proficiency was expected? Gauging the impact on admissions is a question we'll naturally ask, but ultimately we help our kids make the right choice and let the admissions letters fall where they may. (Of course, we've factored all that into the college list, in a perfect world.)</p>
<p>I would suggest getting one on one tutoring - perhaps someone from a local JC. There is more than one way to explain how to do the various problems - and getting a different voice may be the answer. I know my DD will be in the same boat next year - but I plan to line up a tutor day one and essentially help her beat calculus into submission. The goal will not be to get an "A" it will be to slide by with a B----- . </p>
<p>Stats at the local JC is another excellent option. Again though I'd get a tutor from the start - Stats is non trivial...</p>
<p>Calculus is not a high school class supposedly. I know that in my D's school, the algebra she took in 8th grade is on her transcript so technically she will have taken 4 years of high school math after junior year.</p>
<p>Great advice here. Has she looked into taking statistics at the local community college, as avoidingwork suggests? Or, can she take an online statistics class? I know that some CC kids have done online versions of AP Calc when they've maxed out their schools' math offerings. Don't know if this is possible for Stats. If she's identified a few schools she likes, perhaps she could call the admissions department and talk to a rep about this dilemma? I know parents who've done this - though, of course, the conventional wisdom suggests that it would be better for the student to call herself.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I always fall back on the "if she can't get in with her record, she wouldn't want to be there" line of reasoning. If your D is truly struggling and unable to get the math material, why would she want to attend a school where math proficiency was expected?
[/quote]
This is a great point!</p>
<p>^Well, the caveat is that if she's going as a humanities major, that math might be just a vetting point; it might never show up in any class she takes.</p>
<p>OTOH, here's my "take it with a large grain of salt" experience with "prefers":</p>
<p>My S took only three years of language. He really hated the only teacher teaching his language, and put his foot down about a fourth year. The college he aspired to, a very selective one, "prefered" four years of language. He understood he was taking a chance, and that it might make a difference. However, in the end, he was accepted (and took four semesters of language there, reluctantly but successfully.) </p>
<p>The salient point, though, is that he knew the possibility of not going because of the language issue, and was willing to accept responsibility if he got turned down, and had other good options thought out.</p>
<p>It is early enough in the year...I would change her schedule to accomodate Statistics. I would not have her continue with calculus with a tutor....Calculus is not for everyone.</p>
<p>Will working extra-hard on calculus, including tutoring time, take time away from her other classes, so that her entire GPA goes down? If so, then she should drop calculus. It's just not worth it. Continuing with it could actually lower her chances of getting into the school of her choice.</p>
<p>Her senior year shouldn't be torture. There's more to high school than just getting into college.</p>
<p>My d also used lefthand's "fallback": If a school won't take me because I didn't take AP Calculus or because I only took 3 APs senior year or whatever, it's not a school I want to attend.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I would love to hear just one time someone saying that taking AP English was a pointless exercise as they weren't going to be writing essays later in life.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I may not have heard that, but I have heard many kids say, "I'm not taking AP English because I don't write well and hate reading." They then take either an honors or regular English class, often because 4 years of English is a graduation requirement. Not quite the same scenario.</p>
<p>I'm not sure it will help, but I can share 2 experiences: (1) S took AP Calculus AB junior year (only calculus offered at our HS) and made a C+ first semester and a B- second semester and no math senior year and got into a Top 20 college. Caveats of the gender and that it was 2005 and that he was the only kid from our HS applying to that college; he also was going down a political science track. (2) D was considering not taking calculus senior year, and I had just read The Gatekeepers in which it was mentioned as a big deal in the discussions of reviewing applications. I was e-mailing the regional rep for George Washington about a schedule for visits in the area so asked her the question. Her response was that they would expect if for someone interested in the sciences or some other major for what it was a key part but not for someone interested in something like international affairs. (That answer would be from late 2006 or early 2007.) She decided to take it after all, so I can't confirm the answer.</p>
<p>S understood the possible consequences at the time and thought that he wouldn't want to go to any school for which that would be the "break" decision anyway.</p>
<p>And that would be my son, also -- he wants to major in political science. </p>
<p>If the most selective universities/colleges expect calculus (and AP Physics?) from prospective political science majors, are they also expecting AP Eng Lang & Comp, AP Lit and every AP history for their prospective math/science majors if they are offered in the high school? If they are, that's fine; I won't complain. If they aren't, then that is not really right. Why shouldn't the math/science majors challenge themselves to the max in their out-of-comfort-zone areas in high school, too? </p>
<p>[Yes, I know that there are math/science kids -- and "soft science" kids -- who take every AP their school offers in every subject area because they are such strong students in everything. Their parents need not chime in here, because I am not writing about those students here. I am writing about the students who do better in one area than the other.]</p>
<p>MommaJ, If she took Alg I in 8th grade (which may well be the case if she's elig for Calc senior year), then her transcript will reflect four years of math.</p>
<p>I have one son (humanities type) who struggled with a VERY tough Alg II w/Analysis course freshman year. He went on the IB Math Studies track and he (and we) have NO regrets. His other grades went up because he wasn't consumed by math work. General angst was reduced. He will take AP Stat senior year because he <em>wants</em> to.</p>
<p>My other S dropped foreign language after three years to do journalism, which he thought would be more useful for his writing skills (and he wasn't happy with the level of writing taught in his hoonors English courses). One of the best moves he made -- the journalism developed into a major EC and senior level positions for him. Got into all the schools he wanted. In addition, the language he studied isn't accepted for the PhD programs he wants, so he would have had to start over in another language in college anyway.</p>
<p>There is enough to worry about senior year besides trying to slog through an extremely tough course that is not going to matter to her in the long run.</p>
<p>Deja, I have a math major who took equal amounts of math/sci and English/SS AP exams. He considered it important to show he was well-rounded, and his scores demonstrated that he could handle either area of discipline. (This was probably helpful in particular with UChicago, who wants to know that math majors can handle the Core -- but S wanted to make the point that he looked <em>forward</em> to taking the Core.)</p>
<p>My humanities guy will take AP Calc AB as a junior and the SL Math Studies exam. He's taking the AP exam to get credit, since not many places take IB SL exams for college credit. Ditto his foreign language.) We all felt he did not need BC Calc -- not the workload, not the hit to his GPA, not the demoralization he felt, and in looking at the IR programs he's interested in, it frees him up to take other relevant electives in his intended area of study.</p>
<p>I dropped our daughter off at community college this morning where she's taking precalc and college writing as a high-school junior. She's not a big fan of math but we've tried to convince her that she's not as bad as she thinks she is and that she should do fairly well. I've gone over the basics of calculus with her many times in the past. She generally forgets most of what I teach but she remembers a little bit of it. I'm hoping that the ideas won't be foreign to her when she actually takes it. She's likes writing and is much stronger in the humanities.</p>
<p>I don't think that using a tutor to fill in the details works well if there are a lot of foundation problems. Learning quickly on the fly is possible for many students but can be difficult and frustrating for others. Many students that take calculus in high-school do take it again in college too. I think that it would be better to have a good foundation going into calculus than to try and skirt through it unless the student is sure that no other classes with calculus as a prerequisite is in the future.</p>