<p>I know that where I went to school (UOregon), we didn't generally have "intellectual" discussions too often. I know that when I was in grad school at UCDavis, we DID have discussions about what we were studying--my roommate would rapsodize about the pheramones she was studying, my boyfriend would talk about his ecology courses, another friend would talk about their philosophy courses, we'd discuss nihilism, agnosticism, etc. </p>
<p>My son is VERY interested in current world events as they unfold (though he also loves science & math). He wants to go to a school where folks regularly discuss current events and articles they've read and iintellectual deas. He currently goes to a very academic school where many of his classmates are running as fast as they can to get their As, memorizing what needs to be learned without thinking about the "big picture" or really talking about intellectual ideas or the world situation. Any ideas where he will find campuses with folks that are "like him"? </p>
<p>(E.g. the day UMichigan came out with its affirmative action decision, he read the entire decision on-line & he's been reading EVERY newspaper & news magazine he could get his hands on since he was 7 years old.)</p>
<p>Your thoughts about this will be greatly appreciated and are seriously being sought. He's not really all that much into "partying," but likes computer & video games & watching football, basketball & sometimes volleyball.</p>
<p>At a great many schools your son would likely find students who are motivated by ideas, interested in current events, and the like. At the large state schools he's more likely to encounter those students in the honors colleges or residential colleges. He'll find many intellectually curious students at UWisconsin, UC Berkeley, and UMichigan, for example, even though these are also big-time intercollegiate athletic schools.</p>
<p>When my son was looking for colleges, he wanted one where people interested in ideas weren't looked down on. But he also wanted to be in a place where he could enjoy living in a city with "major league" activities including sports. He ended up attending the University of Chicago.</p>
<p>Certain small schools -- liberal arts colleges -- are well known for attracting students with a intellectual bent, including Swarthmore, Reed (my alma mater), Oberlin, Pomona, and Grinnell, among others.</p>
<p>One way to tell if a college has that orientation is to look at the student newspaper --often available by link from the college website. Do they include, in addition to campus topics, articles and letters to the editor about what's going on in the world in relation to the campus? Or is the focus only on rock concerts, sports, quality of cafeteria food, rules governing frats, etc?</p>
<p>A school like Brown or Northwestern , for example, will certainly have more than a few students like your son but also many other different types.</p>
<p>A school like American U. in DC has fewer "intellectuals" but a great many students interested in government, politics, foreign affairs.</p>
<p>When you visit campuses a good question to ask tour guides and other students is "which of your courses made the greatest impression on you and why" ? This will often reveal those students who are turned on by ideas. Look around at those sitting alone in the snack bars -- what, if anything, are they reading? Eavesdrop on conversations. What are they discussing?</p>
<p>My D is like your son-- but minus the sports, math/ science interests. In addition to Brandeis, she is applying to some of the women's college</p>
<p>HImom, At any of the academically selective colleges large or small your son will find like minds to talk to. All of these colleges, not just the ones that promote themselves as intellectual powerhouses are full of smart, articulate, caring, curious kids who are as likely to get into a metaphysical discussion about relationships in The OC, or the theory of football trajectories or the ethics of pointy toed shoes as about Joyce, Kant or GW Bush. College kids in general like to hang out and talk and argue about anything and everything. Schools do have specialties, however, like politics at Georgetown or arts at Vassar for example.</p>
<p>The kids who were memorizing, grade grubbing drones in high school are not likely to get into the most selective schools in the first place. Call it what you like intellectual curiosity, intellectual spark, thinking outside the box, creative thinking this is an intangible attribute that comes through loud and strong in recommendations and essays and that selective colleges value. If your son chooses the best meaning the most academically rigorous college that is at the same time the best fit for HIM, then the rest will fall into place.</p>
<p>Schools that come to mind: Reed, Chicago, Columbia, Swarthmore. Many others have a high proportion of students who love to engage in intellectual discussions, but few, including HYP, have a culture that seems so dominated by ideas as those.</p>
<p>This whole notion of perceived "intellectualism" is somewhat confusing to me. As mentioned on another thread, the brighter (aka" intellectual") students can and will find intellectual stimulation at any top school where they are surrounded by bright, energetic and enthusiastic peers. These same peers could also be involved with other activities such as music, politics, and athletics. Some folks on this board find it hard to believe that students can be well rounded AND intellectual. My son has found a place where most students can fit into either category! I am sure many other universities fit that category as well. In my opinion, the "intellectual" students do not somehow migrate to a select group of LAC's with a perceived intellectual ambiance. Intellectual students are everywhere...........</p>
<p>It's useful reading the book by the prof who impersonated a student for a year and listened in students' conversations. Very little had to do with what they were studying. I know of students who have visited well-known schools and came away disappointed by the kind of discussions they overheard. Granted, students cannot be discussing Wittgenstein 24/7, but there are definite differences among campuses.</p>
<p>Quote: "It's useful reading the book by the prof who impersonated a student for a year and listened in students' conversations."</p>
<p>That actually sounds a little creepy to me. I am not sure that such an evaluation is the best determination as to quantify the "intellectualism" on a college campus. From what I hear, there is a big difference between pseudo intellectual babble that some of the "nerdy" students espouse (sometimes due to lack of any other interests or insight in to the real world), and true engagement in meaningful intellectual discourse. I think that sometimes the truly intellectual (or intelligent) students know when and where it is appropriate to engage in such discourse. Perhaps the so called professor mentioned above was not as discrete as he thought, and the students knew he was an imposter! I also think that it is very healthy and normal to engage in non-class related discussions throughout the day as a means of a more inclusive social interaction amongst various students. In today's society, sometimes the more socially adept a student is the better. It's ok if a student eats lunch with someone who is not in a particular literature or physics class and chooses to talk about the Red Sox and Yankees! How many of us discuss "trivial" things at work and at social events as a means to avoid more intellectual discussions?!</p>
<p>It's become very common here on CC to challenge the validity of a poster's original query, rather than answer it. Sometimes, that's a useful "intellectual" :) exercise. Sometimes it seems unnecessarily combative. The OP has already stated that she saw a difference in the prevalence of "intellectual" type discussion in the two colleges she attended; thus, to tell her that there aren't differences is not so useful, it seems to me. Having experienced a difference between the school I started at and the one I transfered to, I can also attest to differences. The school a graduated from, Michigan, had varying degrees of interest in thinking for its own sake, but big pockets of those students were readily findable. In the small, not so great school I started at, I frankly felt like a pariah, especially when the few like-minded students I'd met transfered the year before I did. My D had a similar experience, feeling totally out-of-step at the OOS flagship public she started at, but then finding a world of ideas more congenial to her when she transfered to an LAC. Maybe we were all misguided, I don't know. Or maybe there really are significant variations.</p>
<p>I know that is the reason my S is so happy at Pomona and students I have spoken with at Claremont McKenna have cited the intellectual discussions with other students as a major factor in their decision to attend</p>
<p>Garland:
I'm not sure if your comments were directed at me. My posts were indeed presented to give the OP food for thought, and certainly not meant to be combative. :)</p>
<p>My point is that you really can not categorize any "type" of institution as more intellectual than another. I really think that making a blanket statement that LAC's are more intellectual than universities and that LAC's are the only institutions of higher learning full of students with "ideas" and intellectual curiosity is not true. The OP asked for opinions. My opinion is that you can find intellectual students who engage in intellectual discussions on most campuses.</p>
<p>I didn't see where anyone said that. I sense that SOME LACs do have an atmosphere that may be felt as more "intellectual," and I think some of that is due to the fact that because of their size, LACs are more likely to have an atmosphere that can be labeled. Certainly there are some LACs that would not be characterized as especially intellectual. Larger universities are going to be harder to label, because their larger size makes them more likely to have groups of all sorts of students, but I still think there may be trends within the bigger schools that are worth investigating to see whether a particular student may find like minded peers. </p>
<p>I also don't think anyone is stating that "intellectual" is synonymous with "bright" either. My D has experienced in high school a variety of approaches to life and learning among her very bright peers. Some only talk about partying, clothes and what kind of truck they drive, and some talk about those things in addition to religion, politics, books, ideas and the meaning of life. I would not call the former group "intellectual" (at least not at this point in their lives), but I would call the latter group intellectual, even though their conversations are hardly limited to "intellectual" fare.</p>
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<p>If he could stand the Minnesota winters and the liberal bent--Macalester in MN, Kofi Annan's college. The student body is very involved politically.</p>
<p>When one gets to the top 50 schools or so, much of the student bodies are theoretically interchangeable, so I think the best way to find such schools is to see which ones have done "addition-by-subtraction". Look for schools who have placed less emphasis on less intellectual pursuits, and you'll find students who would not have been attracted by them. Find schools without football teams or without emphasis on spectator sports; with relatively small music departments and smaller orchestras and choirs; few studio arts majors; without their own JYA programs (or very few of them); with small dance or theater departments; no fraternities; etc. Most of these schools will have some or all of these and the participating students will enjoy them, but the differences one campus to another will be very palpable. To a lesser or greater extent, Reed, UChicago, Swarthmore will fit the bill.</p>
<p>And honors colleges at the big u.'s are pretty much always a good bet, as students have already made the choice to self-segregate on campuses which may have all of the above.</p>
<p>Since 1Sokkermom seems to have responded directly to my post, I will respond directly to hers. The OP did not ask for advice on choosing a campus that best prepared students for the real world or make them more socially adept. Both are laudable goals, but they are not what the OP asked about. The OP asked about campuses that have an intellectual atmosphere and I responded accordingly.
And please note that I did not limit my list to LACs.</p>
<p>Sokkermom--yes, I was addressing your post. I do think there differences, and I said why.</p>
<p>I don't think, and never stated, that LACs are more intellectual than universities. I make it clear in my post that I went from an LAC to a U, while my D went from a U to an LAC, and both of us felt we found a more intellectually minded situation, because of the particular schools, not the types of schools. My husband, my son, and I all attended universities--I'm a big fan! The required Core Curriculum at my S's school really begs one to be looking for a capital I Intellectual experience; it's pretty esoteric.</p>
<p>As I said, the OP has perceived that there are differences between colleges, and giving her "food for thought", on a subject she's plainly already thought about, does not really help answer her question.</p>
<p>I think that the OP's son can find students that he has something in common with at any top university or LAC. I guess the question may be whether he really wants or needs everyone on campus to be exactly like him. :) :)</p>
<p>I think that the OP was asking for thoughts, not just specific school suggestions...........</p>
<p>I read this thread with great interest. I attended as an undergrad a bottom tier state university and found it one of the great intellectual experiences of my life. We would gather in the student lounge and discuss politics, philosophy (dominated by existentialism in those days), aesthetics, science, etc. At times we would start talking in the cafeteria in the AM and still be talking through lunch and dinner. Our dorm-floor motto was based on Kafka. My roommate was a jock, who nonetheless joined in. I later attended one of the "intellectual" universities mentioned in this thread, and found that there too these things were discussed, but perhaps without all the diversity and tolerance for less developed points of view. The discussions were generally not guided by current coursework, which was often rather mundane, but as I later learned no less piercing, and were often based on texts not taught in a course. It is possible to find a culture of intellect almost anywhere, and further, once one gets it started, one is surprised by the willingness of almost everyone to participate, as long as they are made to feel welcome. In visiting colleges in the great search I often found myself wondering if the required intellectualism, of which many LAC's and top universities were so proud, was really superior to the discovered and voluntary intellectualism we enjoyed so very much.</p>
<p>Lots of schools for your son, depending on what else he wants from school. University of Chicago, NYU (kids don;t go there for sports or frat parties), Yale, Brown, Wesleyan....depending on his grades and if he wants big/little, city/country, you are getting a lot of ideas here.</p>