Can Someone help me find the US News and World Report on Top Undergraduate engineerin

[warblersrule]

<p>

You can get an equivalent classroom education at most reasonably selective colleges and universities

“Reasonably selective” is an interesting phrase. A little over 300 colleges out of 2200+ four-year colleges reject more applicants than they admit, a mere 15% of four-year colleges. In fact, there are more four-year colleges with open admissions than with sub-50% admit rates. Approximately 66% of all four-year colleges admit more than 75% of their applicants. </p>

<p>How convenient to specify that the findings apply to the top 15-30% of colleges!</p>

<p>

They asked students about the degree of academic challenge, active and collaborative learning, student-faculty interaction, enriching educational experiences, and a supportive environment at their colleges. These are all the things you should be getting out of college…And the difference is enormous. When comparing the degree to which students felt challenged or interacted with faculty, only 4 to 8 percent of the variation could be attributed to whether they attended Harvard or Podunk U. The rest—over 90 percent of the differences—was among students within institutions.

Well, that’s really not saying very much. Wouldn’t you expect students at any college to be challenged? Students are taught at the level at which they perform. At many colleges, that is a rudimentary high school level. At others, that is nearly at a graduate school level. </p>

<p>It’s rather like saying that third graders and ninth graders report being similarly challenged by their classes, so therefore the third grade classes must be as difficult and enriching as the ninth grade ones.</p>

<p>As a TA, I have been responsible for making many exams. The students at my MA university struggled with basic questions (think “Who debated Lincoln over slavery?” “What percentage of states must ratify a constitutional amendment?” “What were the important themes of this book?”), whereas the students at my PhD university struggle with more difficult and thought-provoking questions (“Using the primary documents you read this semester, describe how the role of women in society changed from the 1600s to early 1700s.” “From what you’ve studied of the author’s background, how did his upbringing and environment affect his writing?”) There really is no comparison in terms of which students came out with a better grasp of the material at hand, though both groups were challenged similarly within the context of their abilities. </p>

<p>

Or consider the conclusion of two researchers who reviewed hundreds of studies on the effects of universities: “on just about any outcome, and after taking account of the characteristics of the students enrolled, the dimensions along which American colleges are typically categorized, ranked, and studied, such as type of control, size, and selectivity, are simply not linked with important differences in student learning, change, or development.”

This essentially translates to colleges having equal impacts on their students. The degree to which Harvard improves its students over four years is equivalent to the degree to which Podunk U improves its students over four years. What this does not necessarily imply, however, is that a Harvard-caliber student would improve as much at Podunk U as at Harvard. </p>

<p>Again, you can think of this in more basic terms. A student enters seventh or eighth grade with no knowledge of geometry but hopefully leaves with a firm grasp of it. A student in eleventh or twelfth grade does the same with calculus. Both are challenged, perhaps to the same degree. That does not mean, however, that a student who should be in calculus would learn as much when stuck in a geometry class. There are professors at some colleges who would LOVE to have their seniors write as well as Chicago or Princeton freshmen. </p>

<p>

It should be noted that the author is a faculty member at a so-called “top 20” university.

More specifically, one with an undergraduate degree from Williams, graduate degrees from Princeton, and teaching experience exclusively at Northwestern. In other words, someone who has likely never set foot in a classroom of a less selective college and has little personal experience on the matter.</p>

[annasdad]

<p>@tk, there are gut courses everywhere. I would not be at all surprised to find more at less-selective universities and less at more selective schools. That has never been my point. But there are also challenging courses at almost every school, and a student who seeks those out and applies himself or herself fully to them can get an excellent education. You don’t need to go to a so-called top school to get an education that will serve you well throughout your life, and it is a disservice to potential students and their families to argue that you do, in my opinion. </p>

<p>In answer to the question in your final paragraph, I would say that there may be good reasons for choosing the University of Chicago over a less-prestigious school; but fears that your life will be ruined if you have to settle for NIU, for example, are not among them.</p>

[annasdad]

<p>

@WarblersRule

More specifically, one with an undergraduate degree from Williams, graduate degrees from Princeton, and teaching experience exclusively at Northwestern. In other words, someone who has likely never set foot in a classroom of a less selective college and has little personal experience on the matter.

</p>

<p>Thanks for pointing out the author’s range of personal experience at three of the most selective institutions of higher learning in the country. Perhaps then you’d grant him some credibility when he says the following (on page 3 of his book)?</p>

<p>

I was inspired to write this book by students who, after four years of higher learning, realized that they should have been doing something different. That in place of rote learning and interpersonal interactions, they should have taken classes from engaged professors who challenged them to think creatively and produce meaningful work. I have met many such students.

</p>

<p>At Williams, Princeton, and Northwestern apparently. He continues:</p>

<p>

Often they come to me during their senior year seeking a letter of recommendation and I can barely recall them from the giant lecture class they toom with me.

</p>

<p>“Giant lecture classes” at top 20 universities? Really? And then:</p>

<p>

Sometimes I ask them about the accomplishment in their college career they feel proudest of and they have trouble recalling one.

</p>

<p>Really? $200,000 for an undergraduate degree, and they have trouble recalling one accomplishment they feel proud of?</p>

<p>In terms of what does Roberts know personally about less-selective college, indeed, probably nothing. But as a trained social scientist, apparently he had looked at the data that indicates a motivated and engaged student can get a first-class education at most schoools, and he is convinced by it.</p>

<p>

@WarblersRule

“Reasonably selective” is an interesting phrase. A little over 300 colleges out of 2200+ four-year colleges reject more applicants than they admit, a mere 15% of four-year colleges. In fact, there are more four-year colleges with open admissions than with sub-50% admit rates. Approximately 66% of all four-year colleges admit more than 75% of their applicants. </p>

<p>How convenient to specify that the findings apply to the top 15-30% of colleges

</p>

<p>So the author uses a vague phrase that he doesn’t define - so you define it for him and then criticize him for restricting his analysis to the colleges that meet your definition. That’s really grasping at straws, I think.</p>

<p>

@WarblersRule

As a TA, I have been responsible for making many exams. The students at my MA university struggled with basic questions

</p>

<p>Nobody denies that there are easy courses at all universities. There are also challenging courses at almost all universities, and students who seek them out and apply themselves diligently develop critical thinking abilities. And students at highly selective colleges who are content to take unchallenging courses and party away their four years manage to graduate without developing critical thinking skills.</p>

<p>

@WarblersRule

This essentially translates to colleges having equal impacts on their students.

</p>

<p>That’s not what the citation says, and I don’t see how from Roberts’ brief summary of the cited authors’ conclusions (“the dimensions along which American colleges are typically categorized, ranked, and studied, such as type of control, size, and selectivity, are simply not linked with important differences in student learning, change, or development”) you can say that.</p>

[tk21769]

<p>

I would say that there may be good reasons for choosing the University of Chicago over a less-prestigious school; but fears that your life will be ruined if you have to settle for NIU, for example, are not among them.

</p>

<p>Yes.</p>

<p>I knew a heroin addict in college. I’d like to think the differences in motivation and engagement between him and me were more significant than the differences between PS215 at Chicago and HIST111 at Frostburg State. I mean, I’m glad I attended a so-called top-20 university, but in the scheme of things, it doesn’t quite rank in importance with the person I married or the fact that I’m not a heroin addict.</p>

<p>So when I suggest to a HS student or parent, “have a look at LACs in the USNWR ~25-50 range to find a more realistic match”, I do hope it goes without saying that nobody’s life will be ruined if they wind up at #51 (or #151). </p>

<p>On the other hand, people don’t come to this forum looking for advice on the virtues of hard work and sobriety (no matter how much more important these things are than your college choice). They want specific advice about how to identify a school, given their qualifications, budget, and personal preferences. The USNWR rankings (used appropriately, and not invested with more importance than they deserve) are one helpful tool for that. None of annasdad’s frequent criticisms convince me they are significantly less scientific (or the underlying data less “real”) than a survey that asks students to rate their courses for academic challenge. </p>

<p>I’ve ordered a copy of Andrew Robert’s Thinking Student’s Guide to College. Without having read it, it’s hard to judge how well the whole book (in its entirety) supports a contention that all colleges (or rather, all “reasonably selective” ones) are pretty much alike. From the chapter titles, it appears the author attaches at least some importance to class size, the qualifications of the student body, the number of small seminars and writing assignments, research activity, and the prestige of PhD programs. In my opinion, colleges differ rather significantly in these features, and the differences do get reflected in the US News rankings (albeit imperfectly, and with nowhere near the precision that the integer rankings suggest.)</p>