Can success be summed up in an ACT score?

Parents Forum
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Parents who can't face the fact that their kids are average? How ridiculous! And yet … those must be other parents. Right? ... Such is the madness of many a suburban parent, a folly stoked by ego and fear. We treat our children as monuments to our own awesomeness, taking unseemly pride in their pristine report cards and all-conference awards. [Psychologist Madeline] Levine, who practices in super-rich Marin County, Calif., often sees this relentless focus on achievement in affluent families. She also sees what it can leave behind. Teens who are in the grip of clinical depression (the rate is higher in the suburbs than in cities, according to one study). Students who think nothing of cheating to get better grades. Young people who feel so stressed that their only relief comes from cutting themselves. ... we're churning out young people who, for all their accomplishments, are sheltered, fragile and passive.

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<p>Scared</a> of being average: Psychologist says parents' ambition hurts kids - chicagotribune.com</p>

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<p>No…</p>

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<p>I read Levine’s book, The Price of Privilege: How Parental Pressure and Material Advantage Are Creating a Generation of Disconnected and Unhappy Kids. Her theories, based on study and her observations as a therapist, make a lot of sense. I would recommend it to all upper middle-class parents in particular.</p>

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<p>I was at the session discussed in the article. The auditorium was packed! She acknowledges that the problems associated with the economic crisis and poor prospects for employment for young graduates add another level of complexity to her findings in the book. Sigh.</p>

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<p>I think the concern about stressed out students is rather overblown. Yes,there set millions of steward out students out there. But I find an even greater majority to simply not care. I find this evident in my very well-to-do high school. But look at America as a whole - 1/4ths of our high schoolers don’t graduate. Some of them have financial responsbilities, but most are simply bored and can’t bother to wait a few more years.</p>

<p>And talk of accomplished kids - what a joke. I would estimate no more than maybe 20% of my affluent peers to be accomplished (the largest proportion would be in sports). I would hesitate to label myself with that word, despite what my National Honor Society induction told me. More common are the people who barely do anything at all, much less anything notable. Well, better for them - 90% of them are going to schools where extracirriculars hardly play a real role in admission. That numbers include a majority of the high achieving people in their class due to finances.</p>

<p>It’s easy to talk about how parents are pressuring their children, but I hardly find it to line up with my experiences in freak life. Except on College Confidential. Hmmm…</p>

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<p>It seems to me that “millions” of stressed out students is a cause for concern, especially when that stress leads to the kinds of self-destructive behavior described in the article. </p>

<p>And is the emphasis on grades and test scores healthy for a society? Another quote:</p>

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<p>IMO, that’s not good. As a society, we need “imaginative problem solvers [and] passionate seekers of knowledge.”</p>

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<p>“But I find an even greater majority to simply not care. I find this evident in my very well-to-do high school.”
I’ll bet your very well to do high school probably has lots of kids who will NEVER have to worry about supporting themselves. I hate to break it to you, but I’ll lay odds that those rich students are NOT the type of HS student that Levine is talking about</p>

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Actually those are exactly the students she is talking about.

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<p>I greatly overestimated the number there due to a bad estimation of the total amount of teenagers in the United States. I seriously doubt this problem is barely a concern for the vast majority of students, let alone a serious issue.</p>

<p>Speaking of my experiences, most of the people I know who seem highly successful academic-wise (in the top 5%) seem to be self-motivated and succeed from their own combination of good time-management, hard work, and desire to have good grades. Never do I hear them complain about their parents. Maybe they have inner pains or issues that I don’t know about. Or maybe my school is just too proletarian (lol) and plebian for you.</p>

<p>At the very top, we have people who are incredibly worried about their grades and are somewhat stressed out. Then we have the huge multitude who complain about too much work, but it’s actually their own fault - they have better things to do, apparently, until the day of the test or when something is due. Those better things to do include hanging out with their friends, playing video games, and browsing facebook - not “stressful” extracurricular activities.</p>

<p>For the people who really think they care about their grades and need resume fillers, they have National Honor Society and Key Club and maybe church volunteering. That seems to be the extent of their extracirricular participation. Hardly “achievers” here.</p>

<p>Being rather successful in high school is very easy, given that you can manage your time wisely. (I can’t, hence why I’m here right now.) I’m willing to blame most of the stress experienced by those students as simply expressions of procrastination or serious underlying mental issues.</p>

<p>I think the concern about this is simply the expression of panic from guilty, self-conscious, mostly-white upper middle class parents who rarely see out of their own communities into the greater problem that’s the lack of care that the majority of students and their parents have.</p>

<p>But if anything, this book is directed at the parents of College Confidential. Oh wait, you guys ALL happen to be great parents who push your kids a lot, but not too much.</p>

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<p>I’m loath to generalize from personal observation - my D goes to a selective-enrollment residential math and science magnet school which by definition has a very high percentage of very high achievers. With that caveat, I see many examples of exactly the kind of behavior described in the article. Parents who want to pull their kids out when they get the first B in their school careers (in spite of the fact only 2% of students at this school graduate with 4.0s, a lower percentage than score 2400/36); the parent who forced his student to spend eight hours every day all summer studying SAT prep because the kid had scored “only” a 2280; the parents who communicate to their kids that if they don’t get into one of the so-called top 15 (or 20 or 25) schools that they will have shamed the family; the parent who nag faculty members who have given their kids lower grades than the parent thinks they deserve; the parents who insist their kids apply only to top schools, in spite of the advice of the GC staff to put some safeties on the list (and the most common “safety” at this school is the very-well-regarded state flagship); etc.; etc.; etc.</p>

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<p>^ Yup I agree that it matches my personal observation as well (which I realize is just a slice of reality). You certainly see it on CC as well. And these are just the events and situations that you are privvy too… imagine what goes on that you do not see (in the form of very implicit pressure, disappointments conveyed, a whole 18 years of maybe less tha visible but extremely powerful socializing kids to be grade obsessed etc.).</p>

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<p>Uh oh, kids are socialized to want grades? What do colleges want to see? What do law and medical and other graduate schools want to see? First and foremost, despite everything they say about holistic review, they’re looking at your GPA. It’s a sad thing, and no matter colleges want to say they otherwise promote learning, they’re the ones who are perpetuating this mentality.</p>

<p>If you really want to take your kid away from this, then you should take your kid to a free school or maybe Montessori or something.</p>

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<p>I say outside of the magnet school system of your city and maybe a handful of better performing schools in wealthier areas of the city, the thousands of other students or parents simply couldn’t care less about what their GPA is or whether they go to college at all, and I find that more troubling. Less competition for me, I guess.</p>

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<p>Kids are socialized to want grades at the exclusion of everything else, because the perception is that is all colleges care about, whereas anyone who has been around CC for any length of time is all too familiar with the “my 2400/4. 0 kid got rejected at HYPSM and ‘less qualified’ kids got in” threads. Most selective college admissions offices are looking for well-rounded, interesting kids; but too many parents and students don’t get that. </p>

<p>Also, it’s not the end of the world if a kid winds up at a so-called “second tier” college, although prestige whoring parents can make it seem so. </p>

<p>I am well aware that in many places, the behavior that is described in the article does not obtain. I live in a poor, rural community where some years, the val goes to CC, and it’s unusual for anyone to go to a school even as selective as our state flagship. But the author is talking about upper middle class suburbs, where her research has found the hypercompetitive atmosphere to be prevalent among many (certainly not all) students and parents.</p>

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<p>I really can’t believe the numbers are that high. Perhaps they are . I see these kids and parents. The parents are living vicariously through their kids and the kids are feeling pressure. You see them at events and at the school and in the store where they are inevitably talking about “their kids.” You read it in their posts here. I find it rather sad. </p>

<p>I have no illusions and kids are more competitive than when I was in high school. But there’s a world of difference between kids who push themselves because that is their personality and they understand the connection with working hard and whatever rewards that brings and parents who push their kids because the parents want the vicarious accolades and bragging rights. Oh they are out there and everyone knows who they are but you will never convince them that they need to throttle it back because they are “good parents.”</p>

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<p>No one said anything about not being concerned about or aiming for a high GPA. I assumed readers could interpret what was meant by “grade obsessed etc.”. For those that would not understand my perspective, what i meant was: preoccupation with grades at the exclusion of more important things, basing one’s sense of self worth on numbers, mental illness in a variety of forums, family drama and trauma. What I see in the universities I’ve taught is some of the fall out: kids who have meltdowns over a poor exam result, who are fearful of their parents, who go to extremes to cheat just to get the right number, parents so taking over to ensure an outcome than the kids own development is hurt. And so on. </p>

<p>With all due respect, I’ve been teaching all day, thoroughly enjoy having discussions with my undergrads. But I really don’t feel like spending my spare time arguing with a kid in the parents forum. Apologies if I sound cranky, but its just silly.</p>

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<p>“So, if you buy this calamitous vision, what can be done? Levine said we need to redefine our idea of success. It’s not about getting into the Ivy League or landing a job on Wall Street, but about developing positive character traits: self-control, self-efficacy, self-esteem, self-reliance, enthusiasm, creativity and work ethic.”
^ This</p>

<p>It is more about balance. I do think at times we need to push our kids a little extra. Studying a few extra hours for that SAT test and missing the Friday night high school game is not going to ruin their Psyche.<br>
For us it is not about prestige, it is about making a good living and doing better than we did.
I do not think all the millions with clinical depression got there because their parents pushed them over the edge.</p>

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<p>Why is it so important to you that your kid do better than you did?</p>

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<p>I had a job I was stuck in for 20 years and have had to struggle financially. I want him to be able to pursue something he can enjoy.</p>

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<p>I totally agree with you. I’m not sure anyone actually disagrees with this. Its more at the end of the continuum where the issue rests.</p>

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<p>Because times have changed, and it’s not for the better.</p>