<p>Wolfpiper, My S had a great h.s. record (high rank, very good SAT,AP scores, etc). He chose to go to one of our state u's, not the one that gets all the press that everyone thinks is so great. He could have gone to that one if he wanted too but had no interest.<br>
He chose his school because it was the best one for him and what he wanted to do.
He has never regretted his choice. After 2 weeks there he said he could not imagine himself anywhere else and was so glad he didn't go to that "other" school.
He met people there that were smarter than him and some who were not but it didn't matter. He made a lot of friends and had a ton of fun. He had to study hard to make good grades (just because not top ranked does not mean pushover).
Don't let that whole tier thing make you doubt your decision. Once you get there you'll be fine and will forget there were other choices. And if there are bumps in the road ,remember that there 's good and bad everywhere. No school is perfect no matter what "tier" they're in. Good luck to you.</p>
<p>One can find plenty of slackers and easy courses at the so called top tier schools as well. The main difference is they graduate, and do so with honors. :)</p>
<p>One of last year's Fulbright winners attended the Univ. of Wisconsin at Eau Claire. A very good state college, but no one would consider it top tier. This young man took the opportunities presented to him and made the best of them. So can you.</p>
<p>There are smart people and not so bright people at ANY college. Some of the friends That I made in college (Oswego State in NY) are my friends to this day, 14 years after graduating. They are some of the brightest people still, that I have ever come across. Look at it this way, a physics major at your local state University must be extremeley smart to graduate, reguardless of SAT or HS grades, right. I would be willing to bet that some of Yale's top students could not earn a BS in physics no matter WHERE they went to school. Go to school, study and don't forget to have a social life because college is a unique situation where you can study, learn, have fun, have access to a social atmosphere than you will ever see again and at the same time, be exposed to political and social philosophies of all kinds. Soak it all up!</p>
<p>You can be happy anywhere. Your attitude is something YOU control. And you have a LOT of control over your college experience, too, as long as you look for opportunities.</p>
<p>Can someone offer examples of a third tier or fourth tier school? I'd be happy if my son found a good match at any tier, and graduated with a degree in his subject of choice. Finding a match should be more important than an arbitrary ranking, often based on how many students apply to a school, not the value of the education.</p>
<p>Great colleges for very good, not great HS students:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.collegesofdistinction.com/%5B/url%5D">http://www.collegesofdistinction.com/</a></p>
<p>wolfpiper,
This college is merely a blip on the map, but they have a pretty famus alumni...Ronald Reagan.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.eureka.edu/Admissions/index0.asp%5B/url%5D">http://www.eureka.edu/Admissions/index0.asp</a></p>
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<p>Sharp people are ESPECIALLY present at third-tier schools that are the leading university in a given state</p>
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<p>Exactly right. Choosing one of those schools over a first-tier may mean making some sacrifices, but in the OP's case, the reverse would also be true. Sounds like the right decision has already been made.</p>
<p>Like some other parents here, I attended a school not highly-ranked despite having the profile of a student who could get into a more-selective place.</p>
<p>It was fine. I loved it. I got involved in the honor council, and I tutored my classmates in some subjects, and worked in the writing center, and read for honors my senior year--there were lots of things to challenge me. And it wasn't that my classmates were dolts, either. There were some really interesting people there, some with my kind of book smarts, some underachievers, some average students...and in each group you could find individuals with varying levels of intellectual curiosity.</p>
<p>In grad school I noticed little difference between myself and my classmates who had attended Yale, Dartmouth, UCLA, etc. I think I may have had some advantages, in fact.</p>
<p>hoedown, that was my experience too. I had my concerns graduating form Ohio State and enrolling into a Cornell graduate program that was populated with plenty of Cornellians and other highly recognizable universities. I soon learned that those concerns were misguided and that I was very well prepared to compete with any other student in the program. In fact, thanks to my fluid mechanics instructor, Prof Ricca, I was what Jim Cramer would call best of breed in that discipline.</p>
<p>And yes, I loved my 5 years at the Big Farm in Columbus.</p>
<p>I did not fit the profile of those who are admitted to the so-called elite schools, and attended a state university. As I have said elsewhere, when I began grad school at one of those elite private research universities I found I was no less prepared and equally educated as my peers who did their undergrad work at Ivies and similar, many of whom did not finish. And I too loved my college years.</p>
<p>Since my sophomore son is in this situation, I am encouraged to hear that so many have received excellent educations and good grad school preparation at state and lower tier schools. I must admit though, I have wondered if his 4.0 would still be a 4.0 at a more elite college. Will grad or professional school admissions committees hold it against him or discount his success because he attended a state school?</p>
<p>lkf725: Grad schools will take more into consideration than GPA, as will professional schools. The grad GRE, MCAT. LSAT, etc. tests will play a role, but recommendations will be huge, as will undergrad research and activities, and a demonstrated work ethic. A friend's daughter, a Fulbright-Hayes winner among other prestigious awards at a top grad school, began her career at a third tier (within her state) undergrad college, and received a very good education and is at the top of her discipline. </p>
<p>As to whether or not your S's 4.0 would still be a 4.0 at a so-called elite institution, it all depends on which one. A couple pride themselves on having few or no 4.0's (UChicago none since 2002, don't know if Reed College has any, avg. GPA 2.8), but many have a large number of students with very high GPA's.</p>
<p>Also, don't forget, many of the elite grad & professional programs are at state universities, for example, UC San Francisico #1 in neuroscience, Univ. of Washington #1 in primary care medicine and #7 in research. Just about every flagship state university has departments highly ranked, and some very well known ones Michigan, Cal Berkeley, etc. have more top 10 departments than the privates. They understand the quality of student coming from many state universities.</p>
<p>lkf, a 4.0 after soph year! Wow! There are several important things which a student can do in setting him or herself apart when applying to grad or professional schools. Med and law schools place some emphisis on MCAT and LSAT scores so students need to prepare for them via classwork and individual study. Business schools and particularly MBA programs seem to place some importance on work experience.</p>
<p>As for grad school admissions which I am most familiar with, we love to see prospectives participate in quality undergrad research. Many colleges have research competitions for its undergrads and the ones who get award mentions receive a big admissions boost. Combine this with good GRE's and a 3.8+ gpa, the student should be a competitive applicant at almost any grad school.</p>
<p>If his undergraduate college does not have a senior thesis requirement, my suggestion would be for him to search out a professor EARLY next year to begin planning for independent study research senior year. The reason students must plan early is to identify an area of interest to investigate and identify coursework which will be helpful in conducting the research. My son began a mentoring relationship with a prof this soph year as prep for his senior thesis requirement in his compsci/cogsci(AI) program and concluded that research in the area of fuzzy logic would be interesting. Because of that he rearranged his junior year schedule to take a compsci course in LISP and a EECompE course in fuzzy sets and expert systems.</p>
<p>Only "mini-wow", originaloog. He just finished freshman year at the end of April. Probably alot of kids have 4.0 after freshman year. But that's good, because he has more time to become involved in additional activities. Also, as you said, it allows for more planning time.</p>
<p>He is in the school's honors program, so I think they have the opportunity to do the senior thesis. Would that be looked upon favorably in addition to doing well on the admission tests? Other opportunities he wants to take advantage of include engineering team competitions (Engineering is his primary major school) and study abroad (Arts and Sciences is his secondary major school). Are those things considered valuable? </p>
<p>Thank you for the advice. Hopefully he will be able to solidify some specific areas of interest during the next academic year.</p>
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<p>A couple pride themselves on having few or no 4.0's </p>
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<p>Yep. Harvard's had exactly two 4.0 graduates in the last twenty years (i.e., in its last 33,000 or so college graduates) -- a brother and sister who graduated a few years apart.</p>
<p>The Reed College registrar reports that the mean GPA for the graduating class of 2005 was 3.1, quite a bit below the 3.3/3.4 typical at its peer schools. There have been five 4.0 Reed graduates in the last 21 years.</p>
<p>Hanna, interesting about Reed. When I was on the tour a year and a half ago they were saying the Reed GPA was 2.8. I wonder if they are distinguishing attending vs. graduating, or if they have seen a recent increase?</p>
<p>lkf725: Another thing one can do to help in the grad school process is to attend, if possible, national conferences in one's area and try to meet faculty at prospective grad schools. This is particularly helpful if a student can get an introduction from a faculty member from the undergrad institution. Find out the profiles of the students attending, find a research interest match, and possibly begin some communication. We were always on the look out for "live wires."</p>
<p>lkf, we have an off topic dialogue going on here so this will be my last public post but feel free to pm me.</p>
<p>Tis good that he will be a soph next year and not a junior. He should work with his advisor to identify his area of interest and the advisor can point him in the correct direction for a faculty mentor. He should do that soon so as to identify areas of interest and potential areas to investigate come sr thesis time. If he can do this, he can then begin working on the remainder of his academic plan in prep for sr thesis.</p>
<p>Though engineering team competitions are not a significant factor in graduate admissions, he should be encouraged to do so. They are fun, teamwork skills are refined and many students end up with new student and faculty friendships. I was a concrete canoe guy!</p>
<p>For engineers, study abroad is not necessarily a good thing. Sometimes study abroad can dilute the academic plan of engineering majors. And if your student is doing senior thesis research this should be a particular area to be considered. Hiwever if the SO college allows him to maintain the depth of his academic plan, by all means consider it.</p>
<p>
Even though our situation has been specifically excluded from this thread, I have felt the need to post almost since the beginning. The urge has overpowered me. Sorry. </p>
<p>First, OP, I think my D would have been very happy at the University of Montana. Remember , because of a particular program she desired she applied to Texas Tech, also third tier in USNWR. What we have noticed at every state flagship (Ole Miss for one) - most of the kid's are there because they love it!! And most are very proud of their school and can't see themselves any other place. My kid had several criteria for judging schools but school pride was a really big one. Were they proud to be there? If not, she wasn't interested. At all. </p>
<p>One thing she critiqued at every school was the percentage of kids wearing the logowear of the institution they were attending . Surprisingly, it was a decent yardstick. We also spent a good deal of time talking to students about what other schools they considered in their search. The state flagship kids were primarily kids who rarely considered other schools. We found few that were pining for the elites. Actually none, but our sample wasn't huge. Even at Texas Tech, there were very few who were pining to be a T-sip or an Aggie. </p>
<p>Additionally, I have admitted many times on this board that my D has a more pre-professional focus than some find seemly. So any school would have to pass the "Will this school get me where I want to go?" test. That's really the only "ranking" that ever mattered to my kid - how did grad and professional schools view students from this school as candidates for admission. </p>
<p>Next, she wanted to be sure that there was a "critical mass" of students that she could push and be pushed by, challenge and be challenged by, excite and be excited by. This was an equally large part of her search process. </p>
<p>Now I'm sure as you go further down the list there will be more kids attending their second, third, or fifth choice but at the U of Montana? Ain't gonna happen. Most every kid wants to be there and that guarantees a fun campus, exciting, vibrant campus. </p>
<p>The answer to the specific question posed "Can top students ever really be happy at 3rd tier schools?" is a resounding yes when you are talking about a flagship state school, and in our travels - yes, even when the school is the "step-daughter" flagship. </p>
<p>Switching to private schools , my daughter seriously considered the following third tier LAC's: 1) Westminster College in Missouri, a truly wonderful and reasonably priced school with great opportunities. 2) Cornell College in Iowa (which has been second tier) a OCAAT, One Course At A Time, school that seems to draw from the entire country, with an abundance of upper midwest kids. The students are very engaged in their educations. And although we never visited 3) Albertson 4) Albion 5) (others whose names escape me) are other reasonably priced schools that seem to value greatly the UG experience of their students with engaged teaching being their raison d' etre. </p>
<p>So, assuming that my kid meets the "top student" definition- she certainly felt that she could be happy at a third tier school. And it wasn't just about the money - it was about the kids and the prof's and the programs and the focus. Would she have been happy at Northeastern Western Oklahoma State College? I'm somewhat doubtful that it would have passed her tests , but if it had- yeah. She could be happy there, too. It was never about rankings for her, certainly not as a litmus test for attendance. It was the kids, the prof's, the programs, the grad school/pro school admissions rate, the campus, and the costs. </p>
<p>Hope that helps, OP. You made the right call . Now go be happy.</p>