Can top students ever really be happy at 3rd tier schools?

Parent Cafe
41

<p>It seems to me that, wolf, that happiness in college depends very much on non-academic things (the campus, the atmosphere, the people, etc.) I think you can find academic stimulation anywhere you go, and UM is the environment you feel best about. Your enthusiasm about your choice will go a long way towards your success.</p>

<p>I remember that my classmates and the atmosphere of comraderie we had "made" my college experience. The professors were great, classes were stimulating, cutting edge research was done, but it was the people that mattered the most to me.</p>

<p>You gave it plenty of thought, and made a mature decision. I know lots of students who wish they had as clear a choice as you made. :)</p>

42

<p>Having just returned from a much-too-brief vacation in western Montana, I'm feeling very tempted to head out there myself..."Last Best Place" is an understatement.</p>

43

<p>When I taught at a second/third tier, I had some top students who clearly loved the school. That's because they took full advantage of the opportunities to run with ECs (most students were not that interested in taking advantage of EC opportunities, so for students with vision, there was a clear field to leadership positions) and to get mentoring from the many professors who loved to teach and mentor. As a result, those students got opportunities that they may not have gotten at a much more highly competitive college where there were hordes of students vying for leadership positions, and where professors tend to be more interested in their own research than in mentoring students.</p>

<p>Some of those students -- who could have gone to top tier colleges undergrad-- ended up getting fellowships like Fulbright and Truman ones, and going off to top law and professional schools. They also had the benefit of being considered the stars of their undergrad schools, which opened lots of doors when it came to alumni connections (and even third tier college can have very connected alum).</p>

44

<p>First of all, I'd like to thank you for all the ancedotal posts on this issue; they certainly made me feel better. However, I think some of you may have miss understand my post. From my interactions with my future school, I love it. Everything I research about it (a great Native American Studies program, for example) seems to make me like it more, I'm glad to love it , and I certainly want to have a great undergrad, experience, but there is this nagging feeling that I'm wasting my hard work. At my school, kids are often considered to be "wasting themselves" for choosing schools like UT and A&M, and I think that if theiy're "wasting" what the hell I'm doing? I love my school, and I AM happy to be going there, really; it's just sort of unsettling knowing I worked so hard to find my "dream school" in a safety. (I know I'm not making any sense whatsoever, sorry about that.) </p>

<p>Cur: No offense, but I don't know if buy it. From your posts, it seems you clearly wish your D had applied to better schools (Emory/Vandy as opposed to merit aid schools) and that you pushed (even with the tremendous financial burden) for your D to go to Yale. There's nothing wrong with this; Yale's a great school. Your D truly deserves elites, and you recognizes this. True, you and she liked second and third tier and she's happy with her choice of a 1st tier LAC, but I don't think you were blind to prestige by any means.</p>

<p>Northstarmom: I'm confused. You speak well of your 3rd tier students in this thread, but on another thread on the old CC board, you lectured a student on how determental a third tier culture was to professional schools apps. (Can't find the link, sorry). Had you had recent experiences that changed your mind?</p>

<p>Again, thanks for all the great ancedotes, and if I sound whiny/negative/like I hate Montana/arrogant, I'm sorry. I;'m just trying to clear up some points.</p>

45

<p>Wolfpiper ... I'm going to segue a little here. A dozen years ago I was suffering burnout from my law practice -- I was pretty much sick of dealing with courts and lawyers and lawyering. Through an issue that came up with my son's school and education, I met some people I really liked who were then starting up an educational training program -- I really liked what they were doing, and I liked the people. I ended up quitting my law practice to join in their endeavor. </p>

<p>Just about every one of my lawyer friends said that it was a "terrible waste" of my "great legal mind" for me to quit my law practice. I was still married at the time, and my husband was appalled -- my decision is probably what pushed an already-failing marriage over the edge. </p>

<p>But I felt in my heart that the work I would do with the new enterprise was more interesting, more personally rewarding, and more valuable in terms of the number of people I could reach and help than the type of stuff I was doing as a lawyer. I followed my gut and my heart and I have never regretted it. The venture I helped start has grown into an international business, with contacts and affiliates all over the world, and I have traveled internationally in connection with the work. I have several times turned down offers from lawyers who know me to return to law practice and come work for them -- I just like what I am doing now much better. </p>

<p>The only way you "waste" your mind or your life is if you spend time trying to please or impress others when you could be following your own passions. </p>

<p>So the answer to that sentiment is simply: don't listen to those people. They are projecting their own views onto you and your life. </p>

<p>The really good news for you is that when you get to Montana, you won't have to deal with the kids or teachers you knew in high school anyway. You can keep up with your closest friends and ignore everyone else -- they won't be part of your life and you won't have to worry about what they think.</p>

46

<p>


I believe you have analyzed my posts correctly, although I tense up a little at "pushed" her to Yale. I'm much more comfortable with "made certain she had thoroughly considered it". And I bristle a little at "better" schools. I'm not so sure they are "better" for my D. You just have to realize that my D is the author of her list and her choice from her acceptances and I am the author of the posts on this BB. I have admitted that the prestige monkey has climbed on my back from time to time. My D has been mostly immune , but even she , as naturally inoculated as she was, was heard to utter "Well, it's down to Yale and Rhodes because if I'm going to give up that much money - I'm going to have it all and go to Yale." </p>

<p>I don't see how that impacts what I wrote about your choice. If you could have spent from 5 till 8 at my house tonight and watched my D excitedly try to piece together her freshman schedule at Rhodes you would know that she's not looking backwards. I think she would suggest you not look backwards either. Good luck, wolfpiper. I hope you find what you are looking for at U Montana as I'm pretty dang confident it's there for the taking.</p>

<p>And for clarity's sake, Emory and Vandy are both merit aid schools.</p>

47

<p>Wolf,</p>

<p>I'll add my thoughts since I seem to have a slightly different perspective. It's not a better perspective, however, since the only viewpoint that really matters is yours. It's somewhat philosophical, which may not be your concept of helpful ideas right now. In other words, feel free to disregard what I say if it doesn't ring true for you.</p>

<p>First, there will be moments when you will feel like you made the wrong decision. Remember that you would have had those same feelings no matter what college you decide to attend. College never completely measures up to the magical experience we anticipate beforehand. Some things will be as we imagined and some won't, but college will almost certainly surprise you with something you never dreamed of. I think that's the beauty of college - the unforeseen and the unpredictable.</p>

<p>Second, your high school classmates, family and extended family, friends, neighbors, etc., will always doubt your decision but people just do that. They may still be doing that when you return to your 25 year reunion. We humans are constantly questioning and examining our lives and decisions. The great thing about adulthood is that most of us stop questioning our past decisions and gain a security from knowing we did our best. I think you will find that most of the decisions you will make in your life will turn out fine. Maybe some decisions could have been better, but surely some could have been worse and oftentimes we learn more from the "mistakes". Time lets us be grateful for many experiences - good and bad.</p>

<p>Our son "wasted" his NMF status and Ivy admission, and decided instead to attend UT. His high school counselors were disappointed. I was nervous about his decision but he never wavered. He's a happy junior at UT now and his best friend, who wanted to attend UT, is a contented Aggie. Another close friend is at Princeton, and several more are at UTSA, Tech, etc. They are all happy sometimes and sad sometimes, but the expectations of all those high school friends and teachers are distant memories. The only thing they think about is whether their colleges work for them, and each one found a way to make it work.</p>

<p>I think you will find that going to college can be a metaphor for life. I doubt you spend a lot of time wondering if you should live in San Francisco, DC, New York, Phoenix, Lubbock, Omaha, or any of a number of cities and towns. You know that you can be challenged and happy in all of these places, given the time to make friends and put down roots. I think you will find that college is like that, too.</p>

48

<p>"First, there will be moments when you will feel like you made the wrong decision. Remember that you would have had those same feelings no matter what college you decide to attend. College never completely measures up to the magical experience we anticipate beforehand."</p>

<p>This is so true. My son went to his "dream" school. Applied ED, not interested anywhere else. Well, of course it didn't live up to his great expectations and it took about one semeter of adjustment to realize that nowhere is perfect. He hears criticism from friends who chose the state school route as in "why are you wasting 40K a year when we both come out with degrees...and you could have had more fun and less work here?" So yeah he second guessed himself alot, but has now realized that no matter where he went he would have wondered what he was missing, so now he is focused more on being happy and successful where he is.</p>

49

<p>"First, there will be moments when you will feel like you made the wrong decision. Remember that you would have had those same feelings no matter what college you decide to attend. College never completely measures up to the magical experience we anticipate beforehand."</p>

<p>One of the best pieces of advice given to me by my dad - "Once your decision is made and you enroll in the college, start the job, etc. - don't look back and compare your actual experience to what you BELIEVE would have been your experience had you made different choices."</p>

50

<p>Stephen Sills said it best in another situation:</p>

<p>Love the one you're with</p>

<p>If you're down, and confused
And you don't remember, who you're talkin' to
Concentration slips away
'Cause your baby is so far away</p>

<p>Chorus
And there's a rose, in a fisted glove
And the eagle flies, with the dove
And if you can't be, with the one you love
Love the one you're with</p>

<p>Don't be angry, don't be sad
Don't sit cryin' over good times you had
There's a girl, right next to you
And she's just waitin', for something to do</p>

<p>[Chorus]</p>

<p>Turn your heartache right into joy
She's a girl, and you're a boy
So get it together, make it nice
You ain't gonna need, any more advice</p>

51

<p>"One of the best pieces of advice given to me by my dad - "Once your decision is made and you enroll in the college, start the job, etc. - don't look back and compare your actual experience to what you BELIEVE would have been your experience had you made different choices."</p>

<p>Chipper, your dad gave some great advice.</p>

52

<p>I completely agree with Calmom. I did not attend a top notch university since my high school GPA and SATs were not top notch. However, I did achieve top notch status in the colleges that I attended and had a very enjoyable time. I was always challenged and met some really sharp people. You will be fine. Just choose a school that has an environment that is suitable for you.</p>

<p>Moreover, I would like to suggest some things that may not make sense,but it is true nevertheless.</p>

<p>I am a tax lawyer who has seen a number of successful people. Frankly, people don't generally have tax problems unless they are successful.</p>

<p>Whether you go to Michigan, Miami, Harvard or Maryland, I have not seen any difference in the success rate of their respective graduates. Both the books and curriculum are the same at most schools. This is especially true for undergraduate studies. The factors that do seem to matter and that do seem to separate the successful from the mediocre in lfe are:</p>

<ol>
<li>Strong GPA in College: Higher GPAs at almost any school does open some doors that wouldn't be opened otherwise . I can't emphasize this enough. It is much more important to get a 3.5+ from almost any school than a 3.2 or even a 3.3 from Harvard.</li>
<li>Motivation: How motivanted the person is and how driven they are, really is a major factor in success
3.Honor and integrity: Contrary to what you have been reading, top people tend to be very honorable . Their word is their bond is a lifelong belief for them. </li>
<li>Application of education: What people do with their education seems to be an important factor too. You can take easy courses or those that challange you and improve your skills.</li>
<li>Attend a top notch graduate/professional school: Attending a top notich graduate or professional school does seem to open some doors in life that wouldn't be normally available. However, long term, this isn't as important a factor as it would seem.</li>
<li>Keep in touch with everyone you meet: Networking is an important factor for both job opportunities and for business. It is crucial to keep in touch with as many people that you can.</li>
</ol>

<p>Bottom line: Stop worrying about rankings or worrying about the prestige of a school and just focus on what is a good fit for you. If you enjoy your experience and work hard, you will clearly be on the road to success at almost any accredited school.</p>

53

<p>I think some of you are misunderstanding this thread. I'm not talking about prestige; I'm talking about long-term academic/social culture, i.e., motivated students. I like the culture at UM in the here and now, but I've spent my pratically whole HS career (quickly nearing the end, by the way :) !) in the "academic performance cult." It's had its ups and downs, but I've generally liked the kids I've had classes with.. I specifically chose a less "academic school" (as opposed to Case) because I know I'm going to have difficuties adjusting to independent living and needed a school where that wasn't legendary for burying its students in work. I do expect to work hard and I want to do well, don't get me wrong. however, I read/heard about a lot of kids who were less than satisified with less "intense" educations. That's why I started this thread. Youn guys' posts have helped me see that there are plenty happy ones, too; thank you for that. However, I don't think my question was frivilous or baseless.</p>

<p>Curmudgeon:</p>

<p>By "better schools" I was referring to:

[quote]
If I were to counsel her now I would suggest she drop maybe two of the merit-safeties, and add two more in the top twenty merit -Emory/WashU/Rice/Chicago/Vandy - category.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Also, I knew "pushed" was dangerous diction when I used it. I guess the meaning I was going for is that at least part of you wanted to her to go to a great school, and Yale is arguably the BEST school.</p>

<p>I am looking forward, but I think the part of the problem is that I, however begrundingly, have a "writer's mind." To some degree, fiction writers never really stay put in reality because they have to able to go other places--other people's minds, other states, other countries, even other worlds. It's fun, sometimes even profitable, but its hard because right now I have decided and I'm just waiting. In the college sector of my life, I'm doing nothing and so my mind can see a million coulda's and woulda's. It's a great technique for selling stories, but it can be a pain in other situations. Your mind is always going somewhere, if it didn't you couldn't write fiction;. Stiil, stagnency does not suit me well.</p>

<p>
[quote]
She's a girl, and you're a boy

[/quote]

Actually, it would be the opposite. I'm the girl and there's quite a number of cute guys at UM ;)</p>

54

<p>I asked a senior who is attending what is probably a 3rd tier school if it was a mistake. This student had all As in high school with many AP/honors courses. The answer was: The department is wonderful, which is why I chose the school. The school itself isn't. I never felt intellectually challenged in my GEs. Most of the other students here are not intellectual. They are here to get jobs, teaching credentials, a quick road to a 9 to 5, but not for intellectual pursuits. I've been happy in my major, but very unhappy in the university as a whole. I have had to choose my friends very carefully, and felt like there was not a large pool of students with similar interests to my own. My close friends are few. Most are similar to myself, with extremely strong high school records coming into the school. We are all earning high grades here, and can get into better grad schools as a result.</p>

55

<p>Wolf, I think we understand far more than you give us credit. There are no magic answers. It sounds like you may be indulging your creative "writer's mind" to make your life seem more dramatic and "intense" but if you want good adult advice, learn from the six factors in TaxGuy's #52.</p>

56

<p>
[quote]
I asked a senior who is attending what is probably a 3rd tier school if it was a mistake. This student had all As in high school with many AP/honors courses. The answer was: The department is wonderful, which is why I chose the school. The school itself isn't. I never felt intellectually challenged in my GEs. Most of the other students here are not intellectual. They are here to get jobs, teaching credentials, a quick road to a 9 to 5, but not for intellectual pursuits. I've been happy in my major, but very unhappy in the university as a whole. I have had to choose my friends very carefully, and felt like there was not a large pool of students with similar interests to my own. My close friends are few. Most are similar to myself, with extremely strong high school records coming into the school. We are all earning high grades here, and can get into better grad schools as a result.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>My concern in a nutshell.</p>

57

<p>Wolfpiper, that is an anecdote that reflects one student's viewpoint. My general experience in life is that people get what they are looking for, and so a kid who has decided that his college department is great but that the others are mediocre, sees it all through that lens -- he doesn't make the effort to seek out challenge outside his major or to see beyond the stereotyped view that he has formed of other students. </p>

<p>Whenever I see a kid who complains that classes are not challenging enough, I wonder why the kid can't create his own challenge. No one is prevented from electing to go beyond what is taught: to read, research, and explore beyond the level required in the classroom. The advantage of a large university is that there generally are higher level classes you can choose from. I too very few "general ed" classes when I was in college -- I figured out fairly quickly that my AP credits enabled me to leapfrog into higher level courses, and I simply signed up for more advanced courses rather that the more typical introductory ones.</p>

58

<p>There is this experience called "buyer's remorse." Some people are more prone to it than others. The truth is that no matter which college you chose,Wolf, you'd probably be second-guessing yourself right now. </p>

<p>So, lets say you had chosen Case. Do you think that you'd be thinking "maybe I should have chosen UM--I liked it better when I visited?" I'd bet a lot of $ on a yes answer to that question. </p>

<p>Realize that this feeling is just part of life. It's especially common among those heading off to college, because for many it's the most important decision they have ever made..and making it is SCARY. </p>

<p>One thing about life...you rarely get a "do over" with the other choice. Learn now that once the decision is made, you ought to stop second-guessing yourself. You'll save yourself a lot of needless worry if you do. </p>

<p>You're going to have a great time! Good luck!</p>

59

<p>Jonri notes,"One thing about life...you rarely get a "do over" with the other choice"</p>

<p>Response: This is usually true; however, with college choices, if you aren't happy at your school of choice, you can always transfer out if you have a decent GPA. It is surprising how many kids actually do transfer from one school to another.</p>

60

<p>hubbells's dad responds:</p>

<pre><code>34 years ago, I attended a third tier state university in Pennsylvania-I was the first person in my entire family to have ever gone to college, so had no one to get advice from. Although I was salutatorian from a large high school and had high SAT's, I really had no guidance and just applied to colleges that my high school classmates applied to-I did not even know that a single LAC existed. Anyways, I went there, did well and went on to medical school. I will say that I had very few peers, intellectually, at the school and have no friends from college that I maintain any contact with. However, when I got to medical school-I made lifelong friends, kids who were just like me etc..I think had I gone to a college where there were more students like me, I may have been happier at the time, not sure it makes any long term difference. My son, who had great advice and support, elected to go to elite LAC-has had a great time and I believe he has made lifelong freinds etc..
</code></pre>

<p>So, in response to the OP, I think you can be happy at a mismatch-or you can certainly make it work, but in retrospect, I always have wondered what it would have been like if I had gone to an elite college-I still live a little vicariously through my sons..</p>