<p>First, I don't mean to sound conceited; if I do, I'm truly sorry. I'm well aware of the fact there are tons of people out there with better scores, EC's, essays, course loads, etc. I'm well aware I wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell at getting into tip-top schools. However, I do think I'm a good student as students go, and mopveover, I worked hard to get where I'm today. There's been a lot of stress, a lot of late nights, a lot of sacrificed Saturdays. My stats were good enough to get me into two first tier schools, and I probably could have had a decent shot at some even high ranked ones. However, for reasons of money and perceived "fit," I chose a third tier. Don't get my wrong, I love many things about my choosen school; it's just that I've hard of any top students loving a third tier school. Even on this board, students that go this route (aka, garland's D and aroundthecorner) seem to be unhappy at their schools either academically, sociall, or both. I've never, that I know of, heard a top tier student really LOVING a third tier school and that worries me a bit. (Also, please keep in mind that I'm not taking about students turning down great institution fpr other great institutions, ala curmudgeon's D or EvilRobot).</p>
<p>I know some top students who turned down first tier for scholarships at 3rd tier colleges. They managed to be happy by basically hanging out with other students who had gotten the top merit scholarships, and by doing the extracurriculars that those students did (which tended to be academically-oriented ones that attracted the brightest, most hard-working students whether or not the students had gotten merit aid).</p>
<p>They also sought out the professors who were noted for mentoring students and for teaching classes in ways that encouraged depth of thought.</p>
<p>Students who did things like this could end up getting research and extracurricular experiences that might have been harder to obtain if they had been at a more highly ranked university, with a larger proportion of academicaly aggressive students, and with fewer professors who were interested in teaching and mentoring.</p>
<p>I have seen students like this graduate to top jobs at major Northeastern companies that in general hired Ivy grads and similar students for entry level jobs. I also have seen such students go on to graduate and professional schools at top universities.</p>
<p>If, however, the outstanding students choose to follow in the footsteps of the majority of students at 3rd tiers -- which means selecting classes in terms of how easy the profs grade, and avoiding the more intellectually demanding ECs, the students probably won't be that satisfied with their college experiences. Bascially, the top students have to go above and beyond what's typical to get a satisfying intellectual experience from a third tier.</p>
<p>Because of the level of instruction and expectation at the more competitive colleges, they can do whatever is necessary to get by there, and still be intellectually stretched. For example, an easy course at Harvard might require a midterm (all essay questions) plus a minimum 20-page paper. An easy course at a third tier might require a midterm and final that included only multiple choice questions.</p>
<p>"If, however, the outstanding students choose to follow in the footsteps of the majority of students at 3rd tiers -- which means selecting classes in terms of how easy the profs grade, and avoiding the more intellectually demanding ECs, the students probably won't be that satisfied with their college experiences. Bascially, the top students have to go above and beyond what's typical to get a satisfying intellectual experience from a third tier."</p>
<p>If I may tweak this a bit...</p>
<p>I believe that the first part of the first sentence is a rather broad generalization. I'm sure that there are students at all levels who set about picking easier courses and easier professors...not just the kids in tier 3. Of course, there may be a higher percentage of students in the tier 3 group with lower cognitive ability. One can certainly imagine that if a student brings less to the task of learning, it can be daunting and somewhat unpleasant. Some might try to "beat the system" by taking easier courses. Others to survive, must.</p>
<p>IMHO, focusing in on the tier 3 schools, there may be more students who are academically insecure and who might feel compelled to manage the stress of their workload by picking some less demanding classes.</p>
<p>What I would hope to avoid is the inference that these folks are patently lazy, unmotivated, and somehow lacking. In reality, these students are doing the best they can...and sometimes that might mean a little less challenge.</p>
<p>That's what "fit" is all about...finding the proper milieu in which to grow as a student and as a person. One must look beyond the label to achieve "fit".</p>
<p>wolfpiper, please don't make the mistake of sabotaging your own success happiness through negative thinking. If you make up your mind in advance that you are going to be unhappy.... well, then that's a self-fulfilling prophesy.</p>
<p>There is no such thing as a "third tier" university outside the world of US News rankings. Rankings are a device to sell a magazine -- and a subscription-based web site. But any two universities that fall in the "third tier" might be as different as night and day. </p>
<p>Will you find students who are less capable than you? Yes. But you will end up choosing classes that you find interesting and challenging; you will involve yourself in activities with like-minded people; and you will make friends with students who have similar interests. </p>
<p>You have chosen a school where you felt comfortable and that seemed like a good fit. You have probably chosen correctly, but if you haven't, it won't be the end of the world: as long as you keep your grades up, then you can always opt to transfer somewhere else, and will have many good choices. </p>
<p>I can assure you that there are many high-level students who are happy with their choice of low-prestige schools. Happy students don't tend to post on the internet nearly as often as unhappy ones -- they are too busy with their lives. And happy students are terrible about communicating with their parents-- so a parent of a happy student tends to be one who complains that their child never calls. In any case, there's no particular reason for a parent to post here if the kid is doing well -- parents are more likely to ask for help when they are worried or having problems.</p>
<p>I went to a third tier college and later transferred to a much higher ranked college. There was not a huge difference in the academics. Please don't relate the level of academic rigor to being happy in college. Many kids have difficulty adapting to going to college. I don't think those difficulties are related to the ranking of the college.</p>
<p>whats considered third tier on us news, like what numbers?</p>
<p>what's consisdered 1st and second.</p>
<p>Wolfpiper, If I remember correctly , you are going to be attending a flagship state university. That is somewhat different from attending a random third tier school. A lot of top in-state students attend their state flagship school for a lot of reasons--distance, money, familiarity, etc. One of my son's good friends got into Columbia, Vanderbilt, U of Miami and USC, with excellent financial aid packages--and is choosing to attend Ohio State.</p>
<p>You'll be fine!</p>
<p>Things turn out the best for those who make the best of the way things turn out.</p>
<p>I totaly agree with calmom!</p>
<p>My nephew turned down Tufts, Colgate and others for TCNJ on a full ride. He had a great experience there, graduated first in his Chemistry major, and is now in his first year at Yale pursuing a PhD.</p>
<p>Wolf, I attended a small LAC which, according to the rankings, is a fouth tier college. I never knew it then (I'm not even sure there were rankings back then!) and you'd never know it from my graduating class. Every single one of us who applied to an Ivy for grad school was acccepted, and many of my classmates are leaders in their respective fields. But beyond the bragging rights, there was the sense of fit that most of us had (those that didn't, transferred). Those of us that sought an intellectual challenge, found it; many of my professors had additional work for me to do, although at the time, I'm not sure I recognized they were giving me a different load than some of my classmates. And I never felt as if I was held back by lesser students. They were there, to be sure, but they were acquaintances...my friends shared my desire and interest in learning.</p>
<p>I think Calmom has it exactly right...part of the challenge of freshman year for any student is finding the like-minded people, but they are there "even" at a third-tier school.</p>
<p>Sharp people are ESPECIALLY present at third-tier schools that are the leading university in a given state (e.g., U of Montana, U of Idaho, U of South Dakota).</p>
<p>Wolf, I have always respected the way you researched and chose your school. My son was looking in that area because he loved the idea of the wild open west. He found an oboist who mushed dogs! He was tempted. But he never had the chance to visit and he did visit the school where he is now. But he still has a dream of driving a wagon over the old oregon trail. I consider you very, very lucky.</p>
<p>Wolf:</p>
<p>Profs love to work with individual students who excel in their studies, show initiative and self-motivation. This is particularly true if the majority of students are more average because many profs at "third-tier" institutions have degrees from the same universities from which profs at "top "tier" institutions got theirs.
So you can create your own opportunities to take more advanced classes or work independently one-on-one with profs. In the more advanced classes, you will find intellectual peers. In the independent studies courses, you will be able to do the kind of work that is not in the curriculum.</p>
<p>I attended a university so low in the rankings that to read the entire list to find it approaches the words read in War & Peace. Many of the students in my dorm, much less the entire campus, were among the brightest and most interesting people one could meet. Today they are federal judges, diplomats, professors, famous artists, corporate CEO's, venture capitalists, etc. We would have impromptu gatherings and argue/discuss philosophy, politics, science, etc. Often, someone would walk in and through a book to another and say something like, "let's talk after you read it." An image and quote from Kafka was chosen as representing our equivalent to a house. We had olympic-level athletes who hung out with the political folks, artists that attended science seminars, etc. It was a great mix of vibrant, interesting, demanding, kids. The characterization that one will find this type of environment only at a so-called top tier school is just another unfortunate stereotype. Further, when I eventually did attend a so-called private elite for grad school, I found my classmates who had attended the top schools, had no better an education than I had, and some experienced a much less intellectually intense environment, as though they were sleep walking through their classes. </p>
<p>This was many years ago, but recently a friend's daughter reported nearly the same experience. While attending an elite private, she has been awarded two prestigious awards to travel to finish he Ph.D. She completed her undergrad training at fourth tier school among state schools in her own state. She is highly articulate, well published, and a great organizer and leader, which makes her stand out from her fellow grad students. She attributes all this to skills she acquired at her undergrad school from experiences her current classmates never had the opportunity to enjoy. While working on an international research project, a fellow grad student who had attended a top Ivy said to her that she envied her, and wished she could have learned as much from undergrad school as my friend's daughter.</p>
<p>Wolf-you are getting lots of support and good advice from parents here. I trust that it drives home the fact that you did make the correct decision for you! Work hard, challenge yourself both in the classroom and out, take in the many things that UM offers its students and you will have a delightful 4 years.</p>
<p>This question is a direct result of the 'prestige' mania generated by the US News rankings as well as the other 'rankings'.</p>
<p>IMO, this is a shame, bordering on criminal. Schools are made up of students. The student's interest in learning governs the interaction with the faculty. The more motivated and interested the students, the same result occurs with the faculty.</p>
<p>Naturally, if a college is filled to the brim with motivated and intelligent students the classes and other activities will be very stimulating for all.</p>
<p>Students attend various schools for too many diverse reasons to list in any article. Every school will have such students. Some more than others. Those students seeking challenge will find it and others of like interests. Students seeking to avoid challenges will do likewise, these students tend to go away (drop out) in time and the motivated interested students remain.</p>
<p>To illustrate this thought, a few years ago, a 7th grade Science Teacher was venting her unhappiness at the lack of motivation and interest of so many of her students. She was further annoyed because her 'significant other' was teaching Physics and Chemistry at the local High School and he loved the interest etc of his students.
My friend thought it was her lack of ability. I stopped her and told her that in the 7th grade all the children had to take her class - no choice whatsoever. Her boyfriend had the students in their Junior and Senior years at the High School and his students either had selected to attend or attended his classes to qualify for college. Ergo his students were motivated and or were interested in the subject. It is always easier to communicate with motivated and interested students.</p>
<p>IMO, this Tier bias reflects a negative view. Sure some colleges have a number of ummotivated students. Those colleges with significant applications can and do eliminate many, if not all, of those students who appear unmotivated.</p>
<p>Other schools, because of location, prior reputation or whatever, do not have the opportunity to only select the motivated student, The first and second year of college tends to eliminate them. What remains is the motivated and interested students and they do fine.</p>
<p>In today's world, a cup of coffee costs the same to students from any college. In the real world, you will be judged on what you bring to the boardroom, rarely on what name is on your diploma. I admit that in some situations, the college connection can open a door or two and even excuse lackluster performance, but in today's marketplace, it may let that person survive in a position, it will rarely allow him to rise.</p>
<p>Please note that the Political field is one exception to this dictum, I feel it is necessary to acknowledge the existence of the lack of excellence in prior performance that currently occupies the Oval Office.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Northstar mom writes: For example, an easy course at Harvard might require a midterm (all essay questions) plus a minimum 20-page paper. An easy course at a third tier might require a midterm and final that included only multiple choice questions.
[/quote]
Sadly this is true at not just 3rd tier schools but many of the top publics as well. At UCLA the econ dept's own review conceded that a student could get an econ degree without having EVER written a paper in their major; by choosing carefully, they could probably avoid papers in almost all their other classes too. It's not so much a matter of low expectations as of low funding compared to other colleges and perhaps a different focus on grads instead of undergrads.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Relative to most other majors at UCLA, however, economics undergraduates must contend with a dearth of ladder faculty, a lack of diversity in the courses offered, and limited student-faculty interaction. Our honors program is moribund, with less than 1 percent of our students completing senior theses. Students can easily choose a course of study that will excuse them from having to write a term paper or from having to make a significant oral presentation during their undergraduate years, despite the fact that we know that writing and communication skills are the cornerstones of successful careers.</p>
<p>These conditions are also essentially unchanged since the last review.</p>
<p>Taken directly from <a href="http://www.econ.ucla.edu/8threview/8yrreview.pdf%5B/url%5D%5B/quote%5D">http://www.econ.ucla.edu/8threview/8yrreview.pdf
[/quote]
</a></p>
<p>Wolf -- way back in the dark ages I got admitted to an Ivy and another Top 25 National University. Went to a 4th tier public. Had a great time, but also was still able to find academically challenging courses. Was there a higher percentage of slackers who eventually dropped out? Yeah, probably -- many of whom were my good friends. But I still had an academically fulfilling experience and got accepted to a Top 10 law school.
From one of your earlier posts:
[quote]
University of Montana (UM): This is the school I LOVE. I've been here twice, and everytime I step on campus I think, "This is where I want to be." The campus is beautiful, the city is nice (if overpopulated by hotels), and the people have been great.
[/quote]
This is the school that felt right -- don't let some obsessions with rankings get to you.</p>
<p>Yes, yes, yes!!! You can ABSOLUTELY be happy at a third tier school. I've said this a zillion times on this board and I'll say it again. I was a good student in high school (4.0 GPA, Editor of the school paper, above a 30 on the ACT, good AP scores, etc.). I opted for merit aid at a 3rd tier state school that was only 3 hours from my home. I had a fantastic college experience. I continued on to grad school, earned my master's and Ph.D. from another third tier school. When I was 26 I graduated with that doctorate, bought a home, had presented twice at national conferences by myself, and had published several journal articles in national journals...also as the solo author. I accomplished all of this and had in my opinion the best four years of my life at that state third tier school.</p>
<p>The valedictorian of my high school class had a 36 on the ACT, a zillion honors, and a 4.0. She gained entry to several prestigious schools, but also chose an in state 3rd tier school (although a different one from mine). She graduated from college in 3 years in math, got a master's in math during her fourth year, and then gained admittance to law school at what some around here refer to as a public Ivy (UVA) where she was editor of the law review.</p>
<p>College is what you make of it. Our two cases are hardly isolated. You can get a great education anywhere if you are willing to work. I find that these boards are often very slanted to a select group of schools and will make students feel like their life is over if they don't go to one of these schools.</p>