<p>Last fall when UVA decided to drop Early Decision, I and many others expressed concern and disappointment at this move. As so few other institutions have followed the lead of Harvard and Princeton (any other school except for UVA??), I am even more concerned that this action will hurt the University's ability to attract top students. </p>
<p>In the last week, I have met with and spoken with the Guidance Counselors at two very prominent and highly successful private high schools. My son is a senior coming from a graduating class of about 85 and about 25-35% of these will go to the Ivy League with another 10+ students going to highly selective privates, including LACs. I learned that approximately 75% of the students in his graduating class were involved in some form of Early Admission (mostly ED, some EA). Of the remaining 25% of the class, there are only about 2-3 students that would be considered realistically competitive for Virginia. The story is much the same at my daughter's school. Her GC tells me that more than 70% of the senior class has achieved Early Admission of some type. Of the remaining students, again only a relative handful would be competitive for Virginia.</p>
<p>My conclusion from this is that by not offering an early admission option of any type, UVA is taking itself out of the running for many very good students coming from top privates who want to maximize their chances of acceptance to a top school and use the early admissions process to their advantage in the college admissions process. </p>
<p>In an ideal world, I understand the arguments of Dean Blackburn and Dean J and others and how ending ED will make for a more equitable admissions process. But in the real world of college admissions (as it applies to kids coming out of top private high schools and probably top public high schools as well although I am not nearly as familiar with these students and families), the decision to end Early Decision at UVA will only force many good students into the arms of other schools. If these students want to do the early admissions process somewhere, the loser is going to be our University. Is there any way we can reinstate any type of early option (ED, EA, Early Notification)?</p>
<p>have you realized that these kids from "top public/private high schools" are extremely pampered? either way, they will end up applying to UVA....so um, whats the big deal? if they really want to go to UVA, then they will end up at UVA.</p>
<p>While I do know a few people who have turned down Ivies for UVA, I think realistically that it's a very small amount of students who gain acceptance to Ivies anyway and most of those who do probably won't turn it down in favor of UVA at the end. Early admission or not, I don't think UVA was really going to win out in that sense although with certain individuals they do. Only Princeton was binding, and they aren't anymore. Even if theoretically a kid did apply early to Yale, they could still apply to UVA RD, same as now. </p>
<p>I think UVA will attract the same students it attracts now, even without ED. I think your concerns do bring up valid points, I'm just not really convinced that practically, it's going to work out any differently. At my school, the top students who don't go to Ivies (and only 1-2 kids per year gets into an Ivy) go to UVA. I'm pretty confident the same thing will occur. Yeah they COULD apply early to Chicago, or Duke, or wherever but people did that when UVA had ED. </p>
<p>Also it's not a common practice for top students who are in Va and haven't completely decided yet to apply ED to UVA. At some level of achievement, it is fairly predictable as to whether you'll get into UVA (instate). Assuming you put the time in on the essays and getting good recommendations. Students who want to apply to other top colleges DON'T apply ED to UVA because they'll get in and won't be able to apply elsewhere. However, these kids generally do ultimately end up at UVA, because they either don't get into those other choices, or they realize that for how much more they'd be paying than UVA, they better realllllly hate UVA or something. The situation there really isn't going to be any different for UVA without ED.</p>
<p>I don't see any change in the future. Everyone from the Board of Visitors to the President to the Office of Admission supports this move in light of the University's commitment to increasing accessibility for low income students.</p>
<p>There are other schools that have done away with ED. Mary Washington and UNC dropped it in 2002, and Delaware ended it last year. Yale and Stanford dropped ED, but added EA a few years ago.</p>
<p>By the way of our 18,000 applications, only a couple thousand came in early and we don't fill the class with those ED students, the way Princeton does (did). The vast majority of our class applies RD.</p>
<p>What was the actual figure for UVA's last ED class? I thought I saw that something around 40% of the entering class will be from ED admissions this year. If that's true, it may be a vast majority applying RD, but a far-greater acceptance rate for ED seemed to be the norm. Historically hasn't it been around 25% of each entering class? </p>
<p>Regardless, I commend UVA for making the decision to end ED---for all the right reasons.</p>
<p>Well, I still don't know how removing ED makes UVa more accessibly to minority and low income students--other than making it more of a hassle for people who actually wanted to apply early--but it shouldn't really affect many changes in the admissions process.</p>
<p>The only real difference I can see is that some people will have more options. I personally choose UVa over Cornell, but I don't think that would be the norm. While I agree that the "if they want to go to UVa they'll come" line of reasoning, if someone all of a sudden has a another option that looks better than UVa, they could be lured away--as opposed to being 'stuck' going to UVa.</p>
<p>Obviously those that don't realize ED hurts low income students don't have to worry of financial aid to attend a school. My daughter probably could have chosen ED at many fine schools. However, before she can decide on a school that has granted her acceptance, we must also look at the financial aid awards. The top schools in the country can accept her and without the proper scholarships, she will have to turn them down.</p>
<p>If someone choses another institution because they want to know a decision early in their senior year, obviously UVA isn't but so important to them.</p>
<p>first off - accessuva should make it easy for low income students to attend UVa. Every student who qualifies already knows that they will receive relatively low amount of loans (i think its like 2 years of instate tuition will be loans-the rest will be grants). if you can't stomach 16,000 in loans then uva isn't that big of a priority for you.</p>
<p>also, way to bend words. i said those who apply to Ed and get in would be stuck going there. now if you have to apply to more than 1 school via RD at UVa, and you get into a "better" school by sheer luck, then you could potentially turn UVa down. I dont see why this is so hard to understand.</p>
<p>Financial aid is more of a middle class/upper class w/o savings concern. I'm not diminishing it, don't get me wrong (it's a very real problem - but those people all find their way to SOME college, though it may have to be a cheaper one), but if we're going to talk about the truly disadvantaged in the process and how ED hurts them, they'll get financial aid. That isn't necessarily why ED hurts the truly poor. </p>
<p>ED is unequal them because they don't have the counseling available to apply ED. In order to apply ED, you have to have finished your standardized testing by the end of junior year, or maybe the first date senior year. This is common in middle and upper class environments, but not common in less "college intensive" environments where there is no one to advocate for a timeline that makes ED possible. These students can be discouraged when, starting the process later, it seems that many people applied early somewhere. They may be tempted to just apply to a "safety" school that not many people applied early to. Although there are groups that run college tours and other things to help low income and disadvantaged students select and apply to colleges, I have noticed that the push in these efforts comes after the ED date...and even if it came in Sept of senior year it would still be pretty late to get the testing done. </p>
<p>I doubt UVA just randomly made their decision because they thought it was funny. Likely, they noticed that they were getting very few minority and low income applicants early and that disturbed them. The college application process is overwhelming even with the best support, as many of us who are privileged have found out (privileged does not mean "rich" - the vast majority of CC'ers are indeed privileged in many ways, even if they can't afford the most expensive colleges out of pocket). Adding something like ED in can make it even more overwhelming as a student without many resources available attempts to figure out whether they qualify, whether they should try to bring their grades up, etc. It is not a level playing field already and schools like UVA realized that ED made it even less level.</p>
<p>Thats great--except it doesn't answer how eliminating ED elimnates a disadvantage to these students you speak of. UVa accepts the same percentage ED as it does RD, about one third. Its not as if UVa is filling 1/2 to 2/3s of its class with ED. Who cares if they "didn't know about ED." Implying that there's an advantage to apply ED implies that there's a disadvantage to applying RD--where UVa gets the bulk of its students from.</p>
<p>Okay, UVA admitted 973 students (2007 figure)under ED for next year's class of roughly 3,000 entering students (2006 figure), so in round numbers UVA is filling 1/3 of its entering class via ED. This</a> article may make some of this perfectly clear to those of you making assumptions without facts. The facts are that "only a handful" of ED applicants applied for financial aid, and UVA understands that those who can't afford to pay full-fare will also have to compare offers to make their decisions, something that can't be done with ED. Another fact possibly misunderstood by some of you is that the income level for UVA's AccessUVA program is $38,000, and if you think that's "middle-class" then you don't understand income or cost of living from first-hand experience. AcessUVA is a wonderful program which will help an incredibly under-represented population on college campuses, but it won't help the "middle-class" squeeze where the increasing cost of college is felt the most and financial aid decisions are critical to selection of schools. This large group are the ones who can't afford the luxury and advantages of ED, a fact that UVA admits, recognizes, and has taken steps to correct. I hope you find the article interesting.</p>
<p>Listen, I think I should repeat that I don't really care that UVa got rid of ED. I don't think its going to make any difference. </p>
<p>However, you apparantly don't know how AccessUVa works.</p>
<p>"1. Meets 100 percent of demonstrated need for all admitted undergraduate students.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Replaces need-based loans with grants in the financial aid packages of low-income students — those whose family income is equivalent to 200 percent of the federal poverty line or less.</p></li>
<li><p>Caps the amount of need-based loans offered to any student at approximately 25 percent of U.Va.’s in-state cost of attendance over four years, and will meet all need above that amount with grants. All students, regardless of state residency, will receive the in-state cap level.</p></li>
<li><p>Student Financial Services offers additional one-on-one counseling to admitted students and their families, assisting them in the financial aid application process and presenting them with financing options outside of need-based financial aid."</p></li>
</ol>
<p>If I can direct you to no. 3, need based loans are capped at approximately $17,000 over four years--for everyone. If your FAFSA qualifies you for financial aid, thats the worst situation you're going to be in. Not necessarily a bad deal.</p>
<p>Also, UVa is just plain cheaper than practically every school it competes with. If you live in Virginia and are applying to UVa and UPenn...well theres a $30,000/yr difference in cost. You just may not qualify for aid on $16,000 a year. Maybe a family making $80,000 a year (which I think is pretty modest...2 parents making 40k a year?) you likely are going to be able to pull off the $16,000 tuition and room and board.</p>
<p>No one cares more about the U than me and my thoughts are entirely selfish for wanting to protect the interests of the University. I believe that the decision to drop any type of early admissions plan is not in the best interests of the University.</p>
<p>Approximately 2500 students are ready to sign up for UVA via ED. About 1000 or so of these get in early while some additional number get in on the regular round. By dropping ED, you are explicitly telling those people to go look around some more and hedge your bets. That puts all of those 2500 students (1000 or more of whom would be coming to UVA) into play. No one knows what the retention is going to be of those students, but I highly doubt that it is going to be 100%. UVA is a great place and a great school, but it is not the only school out there and there will be leakage. </p>
<p>As for those class warfare comments on folks who have the financial resources and have amassed enough knowledge to make a decision on early decision, I truly hope that this discussion does not go down this path. I don't appreciate me, my kids, my relations or any of their classmates being called "extremely pampered." If this type of rhetoric is how you want to characterize an important portion of the UVA community past, present and hopefully future and this becomes the prevailing thinking in and around Charlottesville, then expect to see those students and families head elsewhere. There is room for all of us without resorting to insulting language. </p>
<p>Finally, there is a middle ground that meets the needs of students and families coming from lower income groups. It is called Early Action (and is called Early Notification by UNC). Unlike ED, it is non-binding and gives the student financial flexibility. Can anyone explain why EA or EN would not be an appropriate compromise here?</p>
<p>Most of the top schools that use EA use single choice EA. Maybe UVA will go for that someday, I don't know. The implications are pretty much the same for the low income group that UVA hopes to help with this decision. EA helps middle class families comparing financial aid offers to apply under an early notification plan. I never said there was anything wrong with this, but that situation is different from low income prospective students without the resources to apply early. I am not really sure that UVA is targeting middle class families with this decision, although it will help those who really can't apply ED because of cost. I really don't think I insulted anyone with the resources to apply early. <em>I</em> had the resources to apply early, so I'd be insulting myself. I was merely pointing out where ED hurts those who will get financial aid, since it was insinuated that these people don't have to worry because they'll get aid anyway. </p>
<p>I don't think that EA would necessarily do much more than RD will. EA will still allow students to apply elsewhere. I think it would somewhat defeat the point of the decision. It wouldn't really get people locked in and if they got in somewhere they liked better, they could still go there just the same as with RD. If UVA's concern with this decision was leveling the playing field for low income students, then I don't think they'll move to EA (Harvard also dropped their early program under similar reasoning and it was nonbinding). I don't really have an argument to convince anyone of whether this is right or wrong, I'm just commenting on how I see the situation playing out.</p>
<p>What I would like to reiterate is that how eliminating ED isn't <em>HELPING</em> anyone. It simply removes a common place and viable option to all students because "some poor kids don't use it"</p>
<p>
[quote]
What I would like to reiterate is that how eliminating ED isn't <em>HELPING</em> anyone. It simply removes a common place and viable option to all students because "some poor kids don't use it"
[/quote]
</p>
<p>In your opinion. Which is fine. Obviously the people closest to the situation disagree, or they wouldn't have made the decision. </p>
<p>Whether they're right remains to be seen. I guess they will find out next year. Not to sound callous or anything, but I don't think they'll be reinstating anything for the next year, maybe the year after that if this really doesn't work out.</p>